Has The Surge Worked?

[rayboyusmc]

I don't see near as much in the news on Iraq we saw six or so months ago. Does this mean the surge has worked?

Why does this year has the highest number of casualties for our troops?

What's the story here? Did we make the benchmarks? What are the measurements we use to define success or failure?

It amazes me how the biggest issue of our time seems to move to page 7.

And why do we need to send in all the Marines to Afghanistan?

 

[CSM]

I don't see near as much in the news on Iraq we saw six or so months ago. Does this mean the surge has worked?

Why does this year has the highest number of casualties for our troops?

What's the story here? Did we make the benchmarks? What are the measurements we use to define success or failure?

It amazes me how the biggest issue of our time seems to move to page 7.

And why do we need to send in all the Marines to Afghanistan?

I have no doubt that because you are new to this board that you are trying to engage in conversation...in truth, all of these subjects have been discussed at one time or another.

Guess what? Not one person who engaged in those discussions changed their position (that I could tell) and it always ended up divided along party lines. So lets cut to the chase and why don't you tell us what party you affiliate with and we can play the usual talking points in our head...save a lot of time that way.

From what little you have posted I am willing to bet that you are a Democrat, dislike Bush, think the war is wrong and the US is evil. Am I right? Second option is that you will claim to be an independent.

 

[mattskramer]

I have no doubt that because you are new to this board that you are trying to engage in conversation...in truth, all of these subjects have been discussed at one time or another.

Guess what? Not one person who engaged in those discussions changed their position (that I could tell) and it always ended up divided along party lines. So lets cut to the chase and why don't you tell us what party you affiliate with and we can play the usual talking points in our head...save a lot of time that way.

From what little you have posted I am willing to bet that you are a Democrat, dislike Bush, think the war is wrong and the US is evil. Am I right? Second option is that you will claim to be an independent.

What is the percentage of Democrats that criticize the war? What is the percentage of Republicans that criticize the war and what is the percentage of independents that criticize the war?

I guess that the statistics support your conclusion that his poster is a Democrat, but I would not be so confident.

 

[dawks2020]

The easiest way to answer the question regarding the surge is this:

Has the surge led to the war ending any sooner?

Has the surge led to a nearer date of US troop withdraw?

Has the surge led to greater unity among the three factions in Iraq?

Answer these questions for yourselves. I look at things long term and they are the long term problems we have currently been fighting in Iraq.

Can we ever cause greater unity among the three factions in Iraq?

That is the question I simply cannot ever see our troops solving. Other may see it differently. I just don't see the problem as a lack of troops, rather a lack of unity among the Iraqi people.

Regarding the Dems: I see them as hypocrites, they have the control in congress, yet the involvement has increased since then. So democrats oppose the war yet vote to increase troop involvement. I can't believe the liberals haven't gotten after their party more.

 

[rayboyusmc]

"From what little you have posted I am willing to bet that you are a Democrat, dislike Bush, think the war is wrong and the US is evil. Am I right? Second option is that you will claim to be an independent."

I am a moderate progressive.

I know Bush is one of the most incompentent persons we have had in the Presidency in our lifetime. The war is a total waste except for Carlyle and those who profit from war. Iraq was no threat. Afghanistan was where we should have persevered. If these buttwads who don't listent to their senior military (General Shinseki) had paid any attention, we would be in control in Afghanistan and not sunk in a pile crap in Iraq.

As to your last remark, that I think the US is evil, please remove your brain housing group from your anal orifice and get a glimpse of the sun.

I respect that fact that you were a CSM and have your opinions. I put my time in the Corps, retired as a LtCol, and have my opinions. After 20 years, they are just a wee bit different than the day I retired. Much similar to General Zinni today and General Butler in the past.. I love this counrty and as such will stand up and say when I think a small group of gutless bastards are leading US astray and killing our best young people.

If you think you can't disagree with what "some" elected officials are doing and still be a real patriot, you don't know what patriotism is about. I find it hard to accept that the Dick still has a "blind" trust in Haliburton and will reap the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ from this war, or that Daddy Bush will make millions from his part of the Carlyle Group.

LBJ, Nixon, and Kissassger used US in Vietnam, and the NeoCons are using US today.

The fact that you have given up on trying to offer your side of the picture to others may be a sign of "defeat".

You can call them talking points or you can call them facts. I guess it depends on what you bias your opinion on.

As to the Democratic party being in control. They really aren't. They are, however, a bunch of spineless wussies right now. Even if they can't overide his veto or start an impeachment, they don't have the balls or balletes to at least take a stand in public and call him the liar he is.

Check out "cognitive dissonance". It is endemic on the right today.

But this country will still work out its differences and once more honor things like the Geneva convention, FISA, the Constitution, and the idea that torture is wrong for everyone or not wrong at all.

Have a great day. Gotta go back to work.

 

[CSM]

"From what little you have posted I am willing to bet that you are a Democrat, dislike Bush, think the war is wrong and the US is evil. Am I right? Second option is that you will claim to be an independent."

I am a moderate progressive. Close enough.

I know Bush is one of the most incompentent persons we have had in the Presidency in our lifetime. Debateable...I think the same of Carter. The war is a total waste except for Carlyle and those who profit from war. Iraq was no threat. Probably not but I can see reasons for wanting a strategic foothold in the middle east that has no tie to Israel. I don't think this was the time or method the US should have used to get it. As for profiting from war, there will always be someone who profits from war ... but then you knew that.Afghanistan was where we should have persevered. If these buttwads who don't listent to their senior military (General Shinseki) had paid any attention, we would be in control in Afghanistan and not sunk in a pile crap in Iraq. We are in agreement!

As to your last remark, that I think the US is evil, please remove your brain housing group from your anal orifice and get a glimpse of the sun.

You missed my subtle sarcastic shot at the college liberal crowd.... sorry but it is one of my many flaws. Besides, I've seen the sun...

I respect that fact that you were a CSM and have your opinions. I put my time in the Corps, retired as a LtCol, and have my opinions. After 20 years, they are just a wee bit different than the day I retired. Much similar to General Zinni today and General Butler in the past.. I love this counrty and as such will stand up and say when I think a small group of gutless bastards are leading US astray and killing our best young people.

When the US made the drive into Iraq, I predicted on this board that it was a mistake...for many reasons. There is no way you could know that. My opinions are not all that different from yours, by the way, though I probably have less guts than you do, having left a foot or two of mine in SE Asia. Just so you know...30 years Army...5 years retired.

If you think you can't disagree with what "some" elected officials are doing and still be a real patriot, you don't know what patriotism is about. I have never ever said that here on this board or anywhere else. I find it hard to accept that the Dick still has a "blind" trust in Haliburton and will reap the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ from this war, or that Daddy Bush will make millions from his part of the Carlyle Group. This particular comment makes me wonder just how many politicians from either party will profit from this war or any other.

LBJ, Nixon, and Kissassger used US in Vietnam, and the NeoCons are using US today.

The fact that you have given up on trying to offer your side of the picture to others may be a sign of "defeat". Could be...or maybe just have better things to do with my time than repeat myself ad nauseum.
You can call them talking points or you can call them facts. I guess it depends on what you bias your opinion on. Talking points are not necessarily facts but in essence I will admit you are correct.

As to the Democratic party being in control. They really aren't. They are, however, a bunch of spineless wussies right now. Even if they can't overide his veto or start an impeachment, they don't have the balls or balletes to at least take a stand in public and call him the liar he is. Not just the Dems. Anyone who has been on this board for any length of time can tell you of my disdain for ALL politcians regardless of party affiliation.


Check out "cognitive dissonance". It is endemic on the right today. Not just the right... it is endemic though.

But this country will still work out its differences and once more honor things like the Geneva convention, FISA, the Constitution, and the idea that torture is wrong for everyone or not wrong at all. Hopefully, you are correct. I happen to believe that sooner or later, common sense will prevail and the US citizenry will put a stop to the extremists (from any party) from running rampant.
Have a great day. Gotta go back to work.

Nice talking to you, sir.

 

[rayboyusmc]

"I happen to believe that sooner or later, common sense will prevail and the US citizenry will put a stop to the extremists (from any party) from running rampant."

I hope so also, but more and more am beginning to believe it will take something really dramatic to wake up a lot of those who are sleep walking through life.

When they made the movie, The Running Man, back in the 70s I think, I thought it was a nice fantasy. Today with all the virtual reality crap and mind numbing bullsh!t on TV coupled with the so called "news media" empty sound bites, I think we are already there.

I have made this proposal before and still believe it. If we took all those who have a political opinion in the US of A, we would pretty much end up with a bell shaped curve or normal population. About 67% of US would be one standard deviation to the right or left of the center. The harder core right and left make up about 27%.

The real extremes on left and right are only 4+% and yet these are the people who make the most noise and seem to screw it all up. These are the folks who I believe are running/ruining the Repbulican party right now.

Sometime soon that 67% has got to get its sh!t together and tell the extremes to fuk off.

Hopefully it will happen without a revolution.

Hell, they are still flying the CH-46. I can always re-up and help fly the bastards to some remote island drop them there: from about 5000 feet.

 

[Gunny]

I don't see near as much in the news on Iraq we saw six or so months ago. Does this mean the surge has worked?

Why does this year has the highest number of casualties for our troops?

What's the story here? Did we make the benchmarks? What are the measurements we use to define success or failure?

It amazes me how the biggest issue of our time seems to move to page 7.

And why do we need to send in all the Marines to Afghanistan?

What does the "surge" have to do with Afghanistan?

There's thread in the War on Terrorism forum that details 18 provinces that have been turned over to Iraq, Anbar being the lastest. Sound like failure?

The extra Marines in Afghanistan are in anticipation of a spring offensive by the Taliban.

 

[Psychoblues]

Only from an American political view. And I hold that view in contempt of American ideals.

 

[CSM]

"I happen to believe that sooner or later, common sense will prevail and the US citizenry will put a stop to the extremists (from any party) from running rampant."

I hope so also, but more and more am beginning to believe it will take something really dramatic to wake up a lot of those who are sleep walking through life.

When they made the movie, The Running Man, back in the 70s I think, I thought it was a nice fantasy. Today with all the virtual reality crap and mind numbing bullsh!t on TV coupled with the so called "news media" empty sound bites, I think we are already there.

I have made this proposal before and still believe it. If we took all those who have a political opinion in the US of A, we would pretty much end up with a bell shaped curve or normal population. About 67% of US would be one standard deviation to the right or left of the center. The harder core right and left make up about 27%.

The real extremes on left and right are only 4+% and yet these are the people who make the most noise and seem to screw it all up. These are the folks who I believe are running/ruining the Repbulican party right now.

Sometime soon that 67% has got to get its sh!t together and tell the extremes to fuk off.

Hopefully it will happen without a revolution.

Hell, they are still flying the CH-46. I can always re-up and help fly the bastards to some remote island drop them there: from about 5000 feet.

I agree. Of course, the braying from the extremes gets the media attention. "Man bites dog" is always a better headline than "Nothing bad happened today".

 

[doniston]

"I happen to believe that sooner or later, common sense will prevail and the US citizenry will put a stop to the extremists (from any party) from running rampant."

I hope so also, but more and more am beginning to believe it will take something really dramatic to wake up a lot of those who are sleep walking through life.

When they made the movie, The Running Man, back in the 70s I think, I thought it was a nice fantasy. Today with all the virtual reality crap and mind numbing bullsh!t on TV coupled with the so called "news media" empty sound bites, I think we are already there.

I have made this proposal before and still believe it. If we took all those who have a political opinion in the US of A, we would pretty much end up with a bell shaped curve or normal population. About 67% of US would be one standard deviation to the right or left of the center. The harder core right and left make up about 27%.

The real extremes on left and right are only 4+% and yet these are the people who make the most noise and seem to screw it all up. These are the folks who I believe are running/ruining the Repbulican party right now.

Sometime soon that 67% has got to get its sh!t together and tell the extremes to fuk off.

Hopefully it will happen without a revolution.

Hell, they are still flying the CH-46. I can always re-up and help fly the bastards to some remote island drop them there: from about 5000 feet.

That could happen with a good ----- "GOOD" third party effort.

 

[Gunny]

"I happen to believe that sooner or later, common sense will prevail and the US citizenry will put a stop to the extremists (from any party) from running rampant."

I hope so also, but more and more am beginning to believe it will take something really dramatic to wake up a lot of those who are sleep walking through life.

When they made the movie, The Running Man, back in the 70s I think, I thought it was a nice fantasy. Today with all the virtual reality crap and mind numbing bullsh!t on TV coupled with the so called "news media" empty sound bites, I think we are already there.

I have made this proposal before and still believe it. If we took all those who have a political opinion in the US of A, we would pretty much end up with a bell shaped curve or normal population. About 67% of US would be one standard deviation to the right or left of the center. The harder core right and left make up about 27%.

The real extremes on left and right are only 4+% and yet these are the people who make the most noise and seem to screw it all up. These are the folks who I believe are running/ruining the Repbulican party right now.

Sometime soon that 67% has got to get its sh!t together and tell the extremes to fuk off.

Hopefully it will happen without a revolution.

Hell, they are still flying the CH-46. I can always re-up and help fly the bastards to some remote island drop them there: from about 5000 feet.

While I don't agree with some of the junk you posted previously, I can't find much fault in this post and agree with much of it, except your stated belief in paragraph one. I used to hold that belief -- that common sense would prevail. I'm not so optimistic about it anymore.

I always wanted to ask a 46 pilot and never had the chance ... are y'all just crazy flying those birds the way you do? Or is it inhaling too much of that leaking hydraulic fluid?

 

[CSM]

While I don't agree with some of the junk you posted previously, I can't find much fault in this post and agree with much of it, except your stated belief in paragraph one. I used to hold that belief -- that common sense would prevail. I'm not so optimistic about it anymore.

I always wanted to ask a 46 pilot and never had the chance ... are y'all just crazy flying those birds the way you do? Or is it inhaling too much of that leaking hydraulic fluid?

Well, I am not sure what it would take to bring common sense to the forefront but I suspect it might be some catastrophic event.

 

[Gunny]

Well, I am not sure what it would take to bring common sense to the forefront but I suspect it might be some catastrophic event.

IMO, "common sense" no longer exists. Secular progressive wannabe intellectuals who rely on out of context literalism and relativism to make their arguments have pushed it to the rear, and THEY get the voice.

Look at the arguments on this board for example. You can make the most common sense, "no duh" statement in the world and along will come one of the aforementioned to start cherrypicking words and meanings out of context and twist the entire statement into absolute FUBAR.

The anti-gun crowd's twisted translation of the Second Amendment comes to mind, along with the anti-God crowd's twisted translation of the First.

 

[CSM]

IMO, "common sense" no longer exists. Secular progressive wannabe intellectuals who rely on out of context literalism and relativism to make their arguments have pushed it to the rear, and THEY get the voice.

Look at the arguments on this board for example. You can make the most common sense, "no duh" statement in the world and along will come one of the aforementioned to start cherrypicking words and meanings out of context and twist the entire statement into absolute FUBAR.

The anti-gun crowd's twisted translation of the Second Amendment comes to mind, along with the anti-God crowd's twisted translation of the First.

Sooner or later, IMO, reality will smack them right in the ass. Throughout history, the barbarians (those with pragmatic common sense) win out over the philosophical elite.

 

[CSM]

Truthfully, I am not certain what it will take to get us to a more centrist line in this country. Seems to me that a lot of fence mending will be required before anything like that happens.

 

[rayboyusmc]

"While I don't agree with some of the junk you posted previously"

One man's junk is another man's treasure. Times and stuff can change one's view of life.

I have always been an optimist. Lately, it's more a pessimistic optimist. I hope we will get our sh!t back together, but am just a wee bit doubtful. There is no reason that both right and left cannot exist in frigging harmony. Both are just the other side of one coin. Like that ying and yang stuff.

The CH-46 which was originally introduced in the early mid sixties, was supposed to be retired in favor of the Osprey. After the Osprey continued to crash and burn, I believe they finally dropped it.

I am not sure what version they are up to now. I flew the Delta. I believe they were at the Echo version when I retired in 88.

I my opinion it is one hell of a good aircraft to have lasted this long and still carry out the majority of the Marine Corp helo support mission.

We used to chase deer when I got my flight time with HMX in Quantico. There was an albino deer that we would look for up toward the foothills of the Blue Ridge mountains. That and in Okinawa, we would take a bunch of empty beer cans up to the NTA. When we landed we would ask the grunts to please get rid of them before we flew back.


Ah, the good old daze.

 

[Gunny]

"While I don't agree with some of the junk you posted previously"

One man's junk is another man's treasure. Times and stuff can change one's view of life.

I have always been an optimist. Lately, it's more a pessimistic optimist. I hope we will get our sh!t back together, but am just a wee bit doubtful. There is no reason that both right and left cannot exist in frigging harmony. Both are just the other side of one coin. Like that ying and yang stuff.

The CH-46 which was originally introduced in the early mid sixties, was supposed to be retired in favor of the Osprey. After the Osprey continued to crash and burn, I believe they finally dropped it.

I am not sure what version they are up to now. I flew the Delta. I believe they were at the Echo version when I retired in 88.

I my opinion it is one hell of a good aircraft to have lasted this long and still carry out the majority of the Marine Corp helo support mission.

We used to chase deer when I got my flight time with HMX in Quantico. There was an albino deer that we would look for up toward the foothills of the Blue Ridge mountains. That and in Okinawa, we would take a bunch of empty beer cans up to the NTA. When we landed we would ask the grunts to please get rid of them before we flew back.


Ah, the good old daze.

I think I would have been offended had you asked me to get rid of only empty beer cans.

 

[mattskramer]

I think that the surge is working – finally. It still does not change my opinion about the Iraq war – It was not warranted. It was not necessary. It was not justified. It was technically illegal (per UN Charter). It was very poorly carried out. It was not worth the cost (human or financial).

 

[rayboyusmc]

No one knows for sure if the surge is working. We don't have the ability to sort through all the different information that is coming out of Iraq.

The war was never needed. I don't know how many still disagree with that. Saddam was never a real threat to US. It was also fought on the cheap by Rummy and Company. That, however, is past. Today, the question is what do we do now?

Here is an article about what the benchmarks for success for the surge were originally. You be the judge.

"What exactly is meant by ‘benchmarks’?
Sometimes referred to as “milestones,” benchmarks refer to specific objectives—or rather quantifiable measures of progress toward a future goal—for the Iraqi government to meet with regards to national reconciliation, security, economic performance, and governance. The goal of these benchmarks is to pressure Iraq’s leaders to make political progress and start taking over responsibility for security from American troops. “The purpose is to infuse a sense of urgency into the political process in Baghdad,” says Andrew Exum of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. This has been found lacking, he adds, as evidenced by Iraqi lawmakers’ recent push for a two-month summer vacation.

How does one define progress?
“I want to see life starting to come back,” Sen. Robert Bennett (R-UT) tells the New York Times. “I want to see people in markets.” But others lawmakers are pressing for more specific metrics to gauge whether or not the surge is working. “The key question is: What have we won?” asks Exum. “Have we set the Iraqi government on a path toward stabilization or reconciliation? Or have we just won the right to stay in the country for another six months?” Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, dismisses specific metrics and points instead to one specific question: “[D]o the people in Baghdad feel more secure today?” he asked reporters last month. “If not, then all the other metrics may be of interest but aren’t as compelling as that one is to me.” One problem, argues W. Patrick Lang, former head of the Middle East section of the Defense Intelligence Agency, is that Iraqi and American lawmakers hold different interpretations of what progress means. “[Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki] thinks he is doing the right thing by consolidating Shiite Arab power in Iraq,” he says.

What are the specific benchmarks laid out?
Experts say the benchmarks range in specificity and achievability. They include reaching an agreement on the status of Kirkuk, meeting certain economic criteria like a targeted annual growth of 10 percent (last year growth was just 4 percent), and reducing subsidies on energy and food, which cost Iraq’s economy roughly $11 billion per year, according to the Iraq Study Group. But the most-discussed benchmarks, as outlined in President Bush’s January 2007 speech, include:

Holding provincial elections. Because Sunnis mostly boycotted December 2005 provincial elections, local governments are primarily dominated by Shiites in the south and center and Kurds in the north. The Bush administration is pushing the Shiite-led government to hold fresh elections at the local level to reverse this imbalance, allow a Sunni buy-in, and pave the way toward greater reconciliation. But CFR Adjunct Senior Fellow Vali R. Nasr warns that provincial elections alone will not solve Iraq’s political woes. “The idea that elections will produce leaders you want to work with applies if you are working in a peaceful environment,” he says. “Unless the insurgents are running for office and come to the polls, it doesn’t matter.”
Passage of oil revenue-sharing law. An oil law drafted in February, as this Backgrounder outlines, has left Iraq’s leaders bitterly divided. It has drawn criticisms from Iraq’s Sunnis, who prefer a stronger role for the central government, and from Kurds, who prefer a stronger role for the regional authorities. The majority Shiites have sought to mollify the Sunnis by keeping control of Iraq’s oil sector in Baghdad, not the provinces. Most of Iraq’s oil rests in the Kurdish north or Shiite south, not in the Sunni heartland. The role of outside investors, as well as the classification of old versus new oil fields, also remains unsettled.The oil issue has sparked some disagreement in the U.S. Congress. Democratic presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) says the benchmark as stated in the bill before Congress calls primarily for the privatization of Iraq’s oil, not the equal redistribution of revenues. But others say the oil law, despite its flaws, is necessary for Iraqis to develop their untapped oil reserves and reap the profits.
Reversal of de-Baathification laws. White House officials have pressed the Maliki government to reverse laws that bar tens of thousands of low-to-mid-ranking ex-Baath Party officers from government posts. This move is part of a larger effort to make constitutional concessions to minority groups like Sunni Arabs but faces intense opposition from more conservative and religious Shiite members of Iraq’s parliament.
Amending Iraq’s constitution. The Sunnis favor an amendment to stanch the formal breakup of Iraq into regional states divided along sectarian lines. They fear the Shiites will seek a federal state in the south modeled along the lines of Iraqi Kurdistan, which would cut into the Sunnis’ share of political power and revenue. But the amendment process is purposefully difficult, says Nathan Brown, an Islamic legal scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. To change the document, the Iraqi parliament must first form a committee, which then proposes a package of amendments. Next, the parliament votes on the amendments as a package, not individually, and this requires a simple majority. If passed, the bloc of amendments must then win approval from the public in a nationwide referendum, requiring two-thirds approval from at least three of Iraq’s eighteen provinces. “[The system’s] structured so that the constitution will not develop significant changes,” Brown says.
Spending of reconstruction funds. One benchmark is the fair distribution across the country’s provinces and various ethnic groups of $10 billion in Iraqi reconstruction funds, as allocated in the Iraqi government’s budget. The monies are aimed at building infrastructure, improving services, and creating jobs for all Iraqis, but parliament cannot agree on how to equitably disperse the funds. “It's hard for the central government to get out of Baghdad and out of the Green Zone and move things ahead,” says Frederick D. Barton, codirector of the Center for Strategic and International Studies' post-conflict reconstruction project. He says the easiest way to distribute aid quickly across ethnic lines is to tie it to education or home-improvement funds but that hasn't been done in Iraq.
What happens if Baghdad fails to meet these benchmarks?
The consequences of failure remain unclear. Some Democratic lawmakers have pushed for a freezing of aid funds to Iraq, while others have sought a more rapid withdrawal, or redeployment, of troops. White House officials say performance benchmarks should not be linked to troop deployments and reconstruction aid disbursements—that is, the consequences of Iraqi inaction should not include imposing limits on the ability of U.S. military leaders or the president to carry out the war. But as Exum points out, “Having benchmarks is worthless unless you have consequences.” The trouble, says Lang, is that Iraqis do not believe there will be serious consequences if they fail to achieve these benchmarks. “Iraqis are every bit as smart as we are,” he says. “Realistically they can figure out that the chances we would pull the plug and leave is just about zero.” Similar U.S.-imposed benchmarks set for the South Vietnamese government during the Vietnam War achieved little, he adds. "

Is it possible to create a Western (Christian Driven - currently) Democracy in a country that is not Western in its culture or primarily Christian in its religion?