Handguns vs. AR-15s

[Ringel05]

Psychology and Psychiatry are both at best very soft sciences and very much more arts since the series that drive both cannot be shown mathematically or by any other means to hold water.

The human mind is far too complex to quantify or explain scientifically.

Welcome to the 2000s...........

 

[Ringel05]

So you're emotional got it.

Have a nice life.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Which still puts it at about 1/3 the velocity of the 556. 1,300fps vs 3,250fps.

Personally I like the PC carbines for home defense or "classroom defense", I think they are ideal for those applications.

Take a look at the Kriss Vector 10mm PCC's.

It depends on the round and pistol vs carbine

9mm Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

 

[martybegan]

Why are you living in New York City.

Move to The Free State of Florida. You don’t need a permit to buy a handgun. There is a three business day waiting period before you can pick it up And in some areas a five day waiting period. There is no gun registration in Florida.

Is There a Waiting Period in Florida To Buy a Gun?

The State of Florida has a mandatory three-business-day wait for the purchase of a rifle, shotgun, or handgun. However, some counties have extended the waiting period to five business days. Many people think the waiting period is the time it takes to complete the background check, but this is...

www.carryuniversitytraining.com

Florida State Gun Laws and Regulations Explained | NRA-ILA

Florida state gun law guide, news, reference, and summary.

www.nraila.org

You can also get a 7 year concealed weapons permit for $97 + the cost of gun safety class. With that permit you can walk into a gun store and leave with a nice brand new handgun that you can carry concealed. No waiting period.

https://www.fdacs.gov/content/download/7438/file/License_Fees.pdf

Shortly Florida may go to Constitutional Carry and you will not need a concealed carry permit to carry in public.

What does 'constitutional carry' mean and how would it change gun laws in Florida?

Florida Gov. DeSantis has said he will sign 'constitutional carry' legislation before his term is over. But what is it, and what does that mean for Floridians?

www.tallahassee.com

Plus Florida does not have a state income tax or city income tax.

Too much family here to move.

 

[Batcat]

Too much family here to move.

Perhaps you should plan a family escape from New York.

 

[2aguy]

This fails as a red herring fallacy.

The topic is handguns vs. AR-15s; where the latter is far more lethal and destructive.

At what range?

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

There are voices saying maybe it is time to show the photos of the dead kids who are killed by mass shooters so the public can see just how horrific AR-15s are. Example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/01/uvalde-mass-shootings-graphic-images/

This was very effective when Emmett Till's mother insisted her son's funeral be an open casket and that his body be shown in the papers so everyone could see what the racist assholes who murdered him had done. The photo of Till's body shocked the public and sentiment began turning against the segregationist South.

I have mixed feelings about showing the bodies of these small children. At the very least, it would have to be done with the permission of the parents.

But I think it would be helpful for the public to understand just how horrific these so-called "weapons of war" really are.

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and the victim does not bleed to death before being transported to our care at the trauma center, chances are that we can save him. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different: They travel at a higher velocity and are far more lethal than routine bullets fired from a handgun. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than—and imparting more than three times the energy of—a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.

I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. Years ago I saw one from a man shot in the back by a swat team. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat traveling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun-shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to the trauma center to receive our care.

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

They weren’t the first mass-shooting victims the Florida radiologist saw—but their wounds were radically different.

www.theatlantic.com

There is nothing special about the AR-15, or any other so-called “assault weapons”, here.

Most rifles of all kinds shoot much more powerful rounds, with heavier bullets travelling at higher speeds, compared to pistols. So, yes, being hit by a bullet from a rifle is going to do quite a bit more damage than being hit by a bullet from a pistol.

Being run over by a truck is going to hurt you more than being run over by a bicycle.

And as it happens, the AR-15 fires a round that is not particularly powerful as rifle rounds go. It's illegal, in many states, to use an AR-15 to hunt deer. You know why? It's not powerful enough. There's too much risk of only injuring the deer, and causing it to suffer needlessly. A proper deer rifle fires a much more powerful round, that is much more likely to kill the deer quickly and humanely.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

The survival rate from handgun wounds is much higher than the survival rate of AR-15 wounds.

Simple fact.

How does that compare to the survival rate from being shot with a 30-06 from a rifle suitable for deer hunting?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

When I was a youngster, Lib Control Freaks lost their minds about the "Saturday Night Special" handguns.

No handgun manufacturer ever advertised their weapons as "Saturday Night Specials" of course, just like they don't advertise "military style assault weapons" either.

But now no lib today gives a shit about popularly priced handguns. What gives?

The original term was “Nìɡɡеrtоwn Saturday Night Special”. It was based on the fear that because they were relatively inexpensive, that certain segments of the population could afford them that those who coined the term did not want to be able to exercise their Second Amendment rights. The first word of the term, which indicated who it was that they wanted to keep disarmed and vulnerable, was quickly dropped as the term became more widely used.

The entire intent behind the creation of this phrase, and going after the manufacture of guns so designated, was to restrict the exercise of the Second Amendment to those perceived to be in higher, more affluent classes (and white) who could afford more expensive guns.

The intent was similar, though less blatantly racist, behind a later similar term, “junk guns”, again really of concern only because they were affordable to those that the politicians especially didn't want to be armed.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

The police at Parkland and in Uvalde completely failed to stop the bad guys with guns.

Only because they were a bunch of fucking cowardly pieces of shit, who, when it came time to do their job, were too chicken to do so.

It's not a condemnation of the basic concept of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun. It's a condemnation of a bunch of very poor-quality “good guys”.

 

[2aguy]

Was that a sentence?

As for "all we need to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that theory has been completely blown out of the water. The police at Parkland and in Uvalde completely failed to stop the bad guys with guns.

Only an idiot would continue to subscribe to this idiotic bullshit disastrous idea.

The police at Parkland and in Uvalde completely failed to stop the bad guys with guns.

Let me correct that for you.....

When the killers at Parkland and Uvalde were still murdering unarmed victims, the police at Parkland and Uvalde did nothing...they didn't even try to stop them.......

And you think that helps your argument against our possible need to protect ourselves?

 

[tshrimp]

Are you seeing what dictator Trudy just did in Canada?

They are come for our guns. You can lie to yourself all you want.

WE WILL GIVE NOT ONE INCE!!!!!!

Is he actually allowed to do that? Has anyone challenged his authority on this?

 

[Frankeneinstein]

Compare the damage an AR-15 and a 9mm handgun can do to the human body: “One looks like a grenade went off in there,” says Peter Rhee, a trauma surgeon at the University of Arizona. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

[snip]

The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.”

What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body

When a patient is shot by an AR-15, it "looks like a grenade went off in there."

www.wired.com

I see the intellectual surrender side of your argument and how it has now given way to the emotional hail mary retreat...
...this is a white liberal left wing problem borne out of the 60's "do your own thing" and "sex drugs and rock and roll" mentality [along with a host of other dangerous bumper sticker cliches] that we were warned would happen to us as a nation if we did not destroy that cultural cancer...
none of this was a problem before the "cultural revolution"
reap what you sow

 

[Zincwarrior]

Neither. Dad's M1 will do nicely.

Alternatively my competition pistol.

 

[Esdraelon]

There are voices saying maybe it is time to show the photos of the dead kids who are killed by mass shooters so the public can see just how horrific AR-15s are.

So, you think spreading fear porn over a statistically miniscule number of dead will cause... what? Lawmakers to try to end 2A? And if they decide they can circumvent our Constitution by having a referendum or some other non-Constitutionally approved amendment process that is passed by a simple majority vote, that Americans will simply accept this move because our neighbors are afraid of being one of the EXTREMELY small number of people who are killed not only in a "mass shooting" but the even smaller number who are murdered with a rifle of any description?

I don't think this would turn out as well as you might hope. I have a simple question and I'd like you to be honest - if you're capable of it on this topic.

IF your fear campaign led to legislation to severely limit 2A without following the Amendment process and tens of thousands of us shocked the hell out of those like YOU by fighting it to the death, at what number of dead Americans would you stop supporting confiscation?

The question probably doesn't seem valid to you because your beliefs about firearms are atypical and your willingness to risk life, liberty and limbs for ANY right, is likely an unfathomable concept for you.

But for the sake of discussion and actual TRUTH about this issue, try to imagine the scenes being played out all over the country. Even in blue states and cities the gang bangers would go to war before they gave them up.

Old white guys like myself who've had enough of being blamed and penalized for shit we NEVER DID, would stand in our front door and resist. Average men and women of all ages, all over the country, who have watched as the myth of cops providing safety for them and their loved ones has been CLEARLY debunked, and lots of Democrats all over the nation balking and standing their ground, hundreds of thousands of these people drawing a line at their front door and going to war with "law enforcers" who don't give a damn about our Constitution...

So... how many would you feel justified to sacrifice to save fewer than a thousand innocent lives per year in a nation where 80+ MILLION of us own guns and never commit a crime EVER... The reason I ask is because I suspect that a huge number of Americans like yourself would cheerfully watch thousands die just because they refuse to give up their right to self-protection. This irrational take on the problem of mass shootings only proves that it isn't life-saving that is the REAL issue.

It's like so many other issues today... it's really about exercising CONTROL over those who disagree with your world view.

All I can tell ya is, THIS one, isn't going to come cheaply. THIS ONE is going to cost a hell of a lot more than those like you would be personally willing to pay.

 

[Esdraelon]

I see the intellectual surrender side of your argument and how it has now given way to the emotional hail mary retreat...
...this is a white liberal left wing problem borne out of the 60's "do your own thing" and "sex drugs and rock and roll" mentality [along with a host of other dangerous bumper sticker cliches] that we were warned would happen to us as a nation if we did not destroy that cultural cancer...
none of this was a problem before the "cultural revolution"
reap what you sow

So true. Their desire to have no boundaries or limits whatever on their behaviors is what has actually led to the dissolution of our culture and NOW they are in fear because they are seeing the result of the depravity they've demanded we all embrace.
They panic because their choices are coming back to harm them or actually, just to create a small risk that they may be harmed. They cannot have that. They demand that the rest of us yield to them when it wasn't US who've created or perpetuated this problem.

They're going to discover that removing THIS right will cost them more than they will ever be willing to pay.

 

[Esdraelon]

Neither. Dad's M1 will do nicely.

Alternatively my competition pistol.

So... if Americans will only surrender their AR/AK platforms, you folks will stop coming for the other semi-autos? Have you ever heard of a "Ranch" version of a "mini-14"?

How about THIS one? It doesn't appear nearly as scary as the AR or AK platform.

Would it be okay if we owned this one?

 

[Rigby5]

There are voices saying maybe it is time to show the photos of the dead kids who are killed by mass shooters so the public can see just how horrific AR-15s are. Example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/01/uvalde-mass-shootings-graphic-images/

This was very effective when Emmett Till's mother insisted her son's funeral be an open casket and that his body be shown in the papers so everyone could see what the racist assholes who murdered him had done. The photo of Till's body shocked the public and sentiment began turning against the segregationist South.

I have mixed feelings about showing the bodies of these small children. At the very least, it would have to be done with the permission of the parents.

But I think it would be helpful for the public to understand just how horrific these so-called "weapons of war" really are.

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and the victim does not bleed to death before being transported to our care at the trauma center, chances are that we can save him. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different: They travel at a higher velocity and are far more lethal than routine bullets fired from a handgun. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than—and imparting more than three times the energy of—a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.

I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. Years ago I saw one from a man shot in the back by a swat team. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat traveling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun-shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to the trauma center to receive our care.

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

They weren’t the first mass-shooting victims the Florida radiologist saw—but their wounds were radically different.

www.theatlantic.com

That is totally and completely wrong.
Lots of people got out of Vietnam by shooting themselves with an AR.
The high velocity is totally and completely irrelevant, because the bullet is such a tiny sliver, that it can not impart much energy at all. And it is energy that causes harm, NOT velocity.

The only time an AR is at all lethal, is after is has gone far enough to have slowed down, no longer has the same stabilizing spin, and then can easily TUMBLE after hitting someone.
It is these long range shot that do all the tissue damage.

The reality is that pistols are at least 4 times worse than AR wounds normally, because not only to average pistols have 4 times the area because they are bigger, but they often are hollow point, so that they expand into a huge saw blade that is over twice as wide as the original bullet.

ARs do not have expanding hollow point bullets.

Here is a comparison.

 

[Rigby5]

Was that a sentence?

As for "all we need to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", that theory has been completely blown out of the water. The police at Parkland and in Uvalde completely failed to stop the bad guys with guns.

Only an idiot would continue to subscribe to this idiotic bullshit disastrous idea.

The cops got there TO LATE.
The armed defense has to be there BEFORE the intruder.

 

[Rigby5]

The survival rate from handgun wounds is much higher than the survival rate of AR-15 wounds.

Simple fact.

Totally and completely wrong.
If the handgun has hollowpoint bullets, which is common, its does over 4 times the damage of a rifle like an AR that does not have expanding bullets.

The AR bullet is less than a 4th the area of a common pistol, less than a 10th if the pistol has expanding hollow points.
The AR bullet will go right through with almost no damage at all at close range.
It is only at long range when it has lost most of its energy, that it will tumble and cause really bad wounds.