Grid scale storage, the answer to an all renewable grid

[Blues Man]

A pumped storage project that would provide power for 500,000 residences for 12 hours. Closed loop, so after the initial fill up, only need to add for evaporative losses.

and you have to pump all that water back up don't forget that

 

[Concerned American]

disposing of the waste.

Except for the fact that we have not adequately disposed of the waste. We just swept in under the rug, so to speak, as we have buried it. Waste has been the drawback since the inception of nuclear energy. During the 60s we sold nuclear power plants to the French with the caveat that we had to take the waste back and dispose of it.

 

[Blues Man]

I prefer "Small Nuclear Reactors" (SMRs) to modernize and secure our grid. By having decentralized small nuclear reactors, you have clean power and the ability to firewall each SMR against hackers.

Small nuclear power reactors - World Nuclear Association

There is revival of interest in small and simpler units for generating electricity from nuclear power, and for process heat. This interest in small nuclear power reactors is driven both by a desire to reduce capital costs and to provide power away from large grid systems.

www.world-nuclear.org

Unproven technology and dangerous by products. All nuclear thus far has been very expensive compared to renewables.

View attachment 505817

Nuclear reactors are "unproven technology"????? Are you being serious?

And where have they ran these mini-nukes, and for how long? What is the estimated cost per MW? And what do you do with the waste and the reactor after it is done?

We can use the waste we already have sitting around there is no need to have to enrich uranium.

Using uranium for nuclear power is a waste. Uranium is about as rare as platinum so it makes no sense to use it as fuel where as Thorium is abundant and cheap.

 

[Blues Man]

Molten salt nuclear reactor that eats radioactive waste gets funded

Transatomic Power's molten salt reactor could provide cheap and efficient power generation that uses spent fuel again. Founders Fund has invested $2 million in the company to get things moving.

www.extremetech.com

 

[Concerned American]

The pumping of the water can be accomplished with the power from one turbine on the falling water line, but that same water can be used to turn multiple turbines in the same line as the water falls producing more power with each successive turbine.

 

[westwall]

Pumped storage, where the land permits is, is a major resource for grid scale storage.

Soooooo, where's all that water going to come fr

The one on the Columbia pumps it out of the river behind John Day Dam to a reservoir on the land above the gorge. Then it returns that same water to the river generating more energy as the water is allowed to flow back through tubes with turbines attached. It doesn't actually use the water just the gravitational energy.

Yes, the point is, where this sort of thing can be used is quite limited. Thus it is NOT a solution. It is merely a new way to destroy yet more arable land.

In the case of the Columbia, that land is not arable. It is purely a lava mesa. Also the technology can be used by placing the reservoirs underground on the elevated area. This would serve a dual purpose as it would reduce and possibly eliminate evaporation while allowing cultivation on the arable land above if that was the case.

Underground. Any idea how much energy that takes? The idea for an energy system to be useful is it must be efficient. Everything you are postulating is far more destructive to the land than oil and gas fracking. It costs orders of magnitude more, for less.

Do you not understand why that is a losing proposition?

As far as the farmability, that is only true in small areas. The glacial action ground the basalt into fine grains which are actually rich in nutrients. There's no caliche layer to contend with either.

 

[Concerned American]

westwall After the initial investment of providing the reservoirs, they are virtually free of charge. The arability of the land above underground storage is a non-issue. In the case I cited on the Columbia--the land is just not productive. The same cases can be made for any lake/river that runs through a canyon as most desert lakes do. Examples, Lake Powell in Utah, Lake Mead in NV, Lake Shasta in CA, the Snake River gorge in ID/OR, the Columbia River gorge in WA/OR. The Columbia River uses this same technology with Dams providing the drop at numerous points along its run, the largest being Grand Coulee Dam which backs up Lake Roosevelt. That dam alone provides peak energy to 11 western states while also providing irrigation for the entire southeastern portion of WA which would not be farmable. Grand Coulee refers to the natural reservoir that they pump water into for that irrigation. There are numerous ways to use the same flowing water to produce positive results without diminishing the resource.

 

[westwall]

No, they are not. Sedimentation is a serious problem that requires constant dredging to make sure that the intake pipes are not clogged. The Oroville dam disaster is an example of your type of thinking where you just build it and then ignore it. That dog don't hunt. Hydroelectric is INCRDIBLY good. And it should be used wherever it is practical to do so. But building underground reservoirs is NOT practical. It is fantasy.

 

[MarathonMike]

Palo Verde Nuclear plant has been in operation for nearly 40 years in Arizona and uses treated waste water for cooling. It has worked flawlessly and efficiently.

Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[theHawk]

Tesla leads the field at present. And lithium ion batteries are superb at short term grid stability and day to day storage.

Just need more negroid children to mine that cobalt!

 

[theHawk]

Pumped storage, where the land permits is, is a major resource for grid scale storage.

What a joke. Pumped hydro has VERY, VERY specific parameters for the reservoirs height and distance from each other. It takes nearly a billion dollars to initially build a site. These can only be used in a very limited areas due to the geographical constraints.

So stop pretending shit like this can just replace all existing power sources everywhere.

 

[theHawk]

A pumped storage project that would provide power for 500,000 residences for 12 hours. Closed loop, so after the initial fill up, only need to add for evaporative losses.

12 hours isn’t much. Then it has to use a bunch of power to pump the water back up.

 

[westwall]

Ain't it funny how they don't seem to care about brown people.

 

[ding]

If renewables are ever to serve as base loading for all electrical generation in the US, then grid storage is a minimum requirement. It's non-discretionary and must be baked into the base case economics of renewables.

Which means that total grid storage must not only meet peak demand but also the power losses associated with grid storage.

And grid storage power requirements should be included in peak load requirements.

It's a tall order. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. There's no such thing as a free lunch. People should stop acting like there is.

 

[Blues Man]

Only as long as the velocity of the water remains high enough.

And the system will still use more energy than it produces

 

[Blues Man]

If we are ever going to get to a 100% electric powered country we will have to have reliable power generators that will work near capacity for 90 to 95% of the time. Not to mention that our electricity usage will have to rise exponentially.

And you ain't gonna do that with wind and solar.

 

[Sunsettommy]

Pumped storage, where the land permits is, is a major resource for grid scale storage.

disposing of the waste.

Except for the fact that we have not adequately disposed of the waste. We just swept in under the rug, so to speak, as we have buried it. Waste has been the drawback since the inception of nuclear energy. During the 60s we sold nuclear power plants to the French with the caveat that we had to take the waste back and dispose of it.

Actually that science level in dealing with nuclear has been around for decades, the problem is POLITICAL, which is why it hasn't been properly addressed.

 

[Sunsettommy]

The pumping of the water can be accomplished with the power from one turbine on the falling water line, but that same water can be used to turn multiple turbines in the same line as the water falls producing more power with each successive turbine.

But aside from the obvious rivers which are already dammed and have backed up reservoir, there will not be enough water left to do it economically.

 

[Sunsettommy]

westwall After the initial investment of providing the reservoirs, they are virtually free of charge. The arability of the land above underground storage is a non-issue. In the case I cited on the Columbia--the land is just not productive. The same cases can be made for any lake/river that runs through a canyon as most desert lakes do. Examples, Lake Powell in Utah, Lake Mead in NV, Lake Shasta in CA, the Snake River gorge in ID/OR, the Columbia River gorge in WA/OR. The Columbia River uses this same technology with Dams providing the drop at numerous points along its run, the largest being Grand Coulee Dam which backs up Lake Roosevelt. That dam alone provides peak energy to 11 western states while also providing irrigation for the entire southeastern portion of WA which would not be farmable. Grand Coulee refers to the natural reservoir that they pump water into for that irrigation. There are numerous ways to use the same flowing water to produce positive results without diminishing the resource.

"In the case I cited on the Columbia--the land is just not productive."

Bullshit!

There is a lot of productive land available, it is the lack of stored irrigation water to make it work is the problem.

 

[Old Rocks]

Pumped storage, where the land permits is, is a major resource for grid scale storage.

What a joke. Pumped hydro has VERY, VERY specific parameters for the reservoirs height and distance from each other. It takes nearly a billion dollars to initially build a site. These can only be used in a very limited areas due to the geographical constraints.

So stop pretending shit like this can just replace all existing power sources everywhere.

"Pumped storage where land permits" Did you read that, you silly asshole? Do you have any idea how big the Columbia and Snake river systems are? How many hundreds of miles of those systems have very large vertical landscapes right beside them? There are many areas on the West Coast where the ocean also lies adjacent to a lot of vertical landscape. No, you crap about replacing existing power sources is an extremely stupid attempt at a strawman.