Greece is what happens when government gets too big. Not only is their economy in jeopardyt of collapsing, so is their government and their country. Now you have people rioting because they are too used to government taking care of them. They have mandated minimum wage that is 45% greater than ours and greater percentage of public sector jobs than we have. I don't know what greater real world example people need to be hit in the head with to start seeing that our government needs to shrink darstically.
Greece: The real world of example of big government
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Decepticon
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What about Germany?
France?
Norway?
Finland?
All of those are "big government" socialist countries and yet only a few of them are having difficulties.
It couldn't be that Greece ran into financial trouble when it turned out all those mortgage backed securities they bought weren't worth as much as promised, huh?
Oh noes. It's just the reasons you gave....oh wait...you didn't GIVE any REASONS why their economy is collapsing, just HOW badly it's collapsing.
The problem isn't "big" government....it's SHITTY government. Which is what happens when you put people who don't believe in government, to run it.
Perhaps CONZ should stay out of enterprises that require personal sacrifice and serving their communities.
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Oddball
Unobtanium Member
What about them?
Out of the entire EU, Germany is the only one with even a marginally functional economy left, to the point that they're probably going to be the ones expected to hold the bag for the bailouts of Greece, Spain and the rest.
The economy of France is nearly as closed to the rest of the world as is North Korea.
Norway (population less than that of New York City) can float its socialist state with North Sea oil.
The population of Finland is nearly equal to than that of Minnesota....The notion that a similar bureaucratic apparatus could run a nation of over 300 million is beyond absurd.
Conveniently omitting Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy....
So, 'splain Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Italy.
Couldn't let a good leftbat rant go without a classic strawman argument, could we?
Perhaps socialist progressives should learn to mind their own ******* business, for a change.
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It has to do with the fact that they are financially spread too thin. It's math, not politics. They try to do more for people than they can take in. It's that simple.
And this? This may be the dumbest thing anyone has every said. First, I'd be suprised if you had much insight into the political ideolgies of greek politicians. Secondly, IT'S A FACTUALLY FALSE STATEMENT. What would a politician that doesn't believe government should be doing anything and everything for people do? They would spend as little of the taxpayers money as possible. Not do what the greek government did in part by mandating a living wage and having a labor force that is comprised nearly 20% by public employees.
What did Thatcher say?
"Socialism is wonderfull. Until you run out of other peoples money."
Then, my friend, you are up shit creek with no paddle ala Greece and the rest of the EU that sinking.
German can't and probably won't save em all.
One would think the Clowns we elect would take good long look at Democratic Socialist Europe and catch a ******* clue??
Apparantly not.
"Socialism is wonderfull. Until you run out of other peoples money."
Then, my friend, you are up shit creek with no paddle ala Greece and the rest of the EU that sinking.
German can't and probably won't save em all.
One would think the Clowns we elect would take good long look at Democratic Socialist Europe and catch a ******* clue??
Apparantly not.
Soggy in NOLA
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Big government IS shitty government....
Late2TheParty
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Greece has a ton of bureacratic leeches (1 out of 5 workers) that are paid too much, many with do-nothing jobs, and high pensions at ridicuously ages like 55.
The Greek government spends something like nearly 50% of it's revenue on Bureacrats while the US Government it's something like 12%, IIRC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/w...-defies-efforts-to-cut-it.html?pagewanted=all
bitterlyclingin
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(Courtesy of BHO. He needs the anxiety, the unrest, the uncertainty, the anger, the feelings of overwhelming loss, and the rage against the status quo in order to implement his "Fundamental Transformation Of America" with its Constitution "Too inflexible to allow him to bring about his desired change". It just won't happen with fat, happy, sassy, fully employed Americans.)
Stunning Pictures Of The Disaster Zone In Greece
Stunning Pictures Of The Disaster Zone In Greece
Mr. Peepers
Senior Member
"Socialist" programs had NOTHING to do with the collapse of the Irish economy. You can blame that entirely on greedy Irish banksters and corrupt government officials (just like here), and now the regular joes will have to foot the bill (just like here). Oh, but we can't expect you to do any real research, only to spew RW talking points, now can we.
Ireland's banking crisis: timeline - Telegraph
Oh, and what started the whole collapse rolling in Ireland??? Oh, it was the collapse of Lehman Brothers??? OOPS! Our bad! You can also apply that to the reason for Iceland's collapse too.
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g5000
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Actually no, it couldn't. You are talking out of your ass.
Greece's problems are because the banks loaned more money to the Greek government than the government could afford to repay. The Greek government used the money it borrowed to make shiny new railroad tracks and fat railroad pensions and to create more cushy government jobs and to lower the retirement age for restaurant waiters and hairdressers down to 50.
Greece is a sub-prime borrower who borrowed more money than it could pay back on the income it makes so it could visit Disneyland full time. It is as simple as that. And when Greece's mortgage reset, its payments skyrocketed. And so it began borrowing MORE money from the rest of Europe and the bond markets to make its payments, which only added to the principal it owes. So there is a tremendous snowball effect going on.
Ever since, Wall Street started has been laying bets on Greece's ability to pay.
Now the snowball is too big, and the investors and banks who loaned the money to Greece are facing huge losses. And the investors who sold credit default swaps are sweating over credit events being triggered, which is also keeping central bankers awake at night.
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Oddball
Unobtanium Member
Greedy banksters and corrupt gubmint officials are a central feature of socialistic economies.
OOPS!
g5000
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The problems of Ireland are separate from the problems of Greece.
Ireland imploded for the same reasons we did. They had a property bubble which their banks funded with sub-prime loans and then packaged them up into gigantic structured finance products, stacked on a shit ton of credit default swaps, and sold them off to investors as pie in the sky.
Then when the sub-prime loans began blowing up, the banks found themselves owing something near 100% GDP to bondholders because they had massively leveraged themselves to build their CDO pyramids.
And so the Irish government declared it would back the banks' promises to bondholders.
A promise the Irish government can't possibly keep.
Socialism had nothing to do with it. It was pure capitalist greed and the hugely mistaken belief that risk had been managed out of existence.
Ireland imploded for the same reasons we did. They had a property bubble which their banks funded with sub-prime loans and then packaged them up into gigantic structured finance products, stacked on a shit ton of credit default swaps, and sold them off to investors as pie in the sky.
Then when the sub-prime loans began blowing up, the banks found themselves owing something near 100% GDP to bondholders because they had massively leveraged themselves to build their CDO pyramids.
And so the Irish government declared it would back the banks' promises to bondholders.
A promise the Irish government can't possibly keep.
Socialism had nothing to do with it. It was pure capitalist greed and the hugely mistaken belief that risk had been managed out of existence.
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Your contention is that Greece's financial troubles are because of the "mortgage backed securities they bought"? Come on...really?
Greece finds itself in serious trouble because they have DONE what progressives here want us to DO. Pretending otherwise is rather amusing.
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"Credit default swaps are a type of credit insurance contract in which one party pays another party to protect it from the risk of default on a particular debt instrument. If that debt instrument (a bond, a bank loan, a mortgage) defaults, the insurer compensates the insured for his loss. The insurer (which could be a bank, an investment bank or a hedge fund) is required to post collateral to support its payment obligation, but in the insane credit environment that preceded the credit crisis, this collateral deposit was generally too small. As a result, the credit default market is best described as an insurance market where many of the individual trades are undercapitalized."
Swaps proved to be very profitable — in the short term. Banks and other companies that issued them earned fees for insuring events they thought would never happen, like the bottom falling out of the market for mortgage-backed securities. As a result, the losses produced by the end of the housing bubble were multiplied manyfold, as the issuers of swaps found themselves faced with huge liabilities they had not prepared for. It was this cycle that brought down the American International Group, the insurance giant, which eventually needed $180 billion in taxpayer support.
Credit Default Swaps - The New York Times
Come back and dance ANYTIME.
Mortgage backed securities tanked, which tanked the default credit swaps, which the greeks bought in droves.
So yeah, if you like, we can chalk up the financial disaster in Greece to US CONZ (Specifically Phil "Foreclosure" Gramm) who deregulated these shitty financial instruments into legality.
Swaps proved to be very profitable — in the short term. Banks and other companies that issued them earned fees for insuring events they thought would never happen, like the bottom falling out of the market for mortgage-backed securities. As a result, the losses produced by the end of the housing bubble were multiplied manyfold, as the issuers of swaps found themselves faced with huge liabilities they had not prepared for. It was this cycle that brought down the American International Group, the insurance giant, which eventually needed $180 billion in taxpayer support.
Credit Default Swaps - The New York Times
Come back and dance ANYTIME.
Mortgage backed securities tanked, which tanked the default credit swaps, which the greeks bought in droves.
So yeah, if you like, we can chalk up the financial disaster in Greece to US CONZ (Specifically Phil "Foreclosure" Gramm) who deregulated these shitty financial instruments into legality.
Soggy in NOLA
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So, this has what to do with the failure of nearly every Socialized country on the planet?
Mr. Peepers
Senior Member
It is exactly the same type of thing that caused our collapse, and are we a socialistic economy? No, we are on the way to being a plutocracy - quite the opposite. AND IT WAS ALL STARTED IN IRELAND BY THE COLLAPSE OF LEHMAN BROTHERS. YOU KNOW AS IN IT STARTED HERE, IN THE GOOD OLD USA. Now do some research and tell me what we did to Iceland by offering these "safe" AAA investment products. I'll wait
OOPS!
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