Greatest aircrat of WWII?

[AZrailwhale]

When you have limited industrial capacity, you are looking out of the ultimate superior weapons that would not need to be built in numbers the opponents can do. And the Blitz-Bomber thing of Adolf is also consequent. Such a bomber would allow for raids when the opponents own the skies.

Pinpoint raids that did almost non-existent damage. Much like the "tip and run" raids by Luftwaffe fighter bombers after the failure of the BoB.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I have no idea why the Luftwaffe kept trying the multi engined connected engines. They didn't work well. They kept trying to use them in lieu of a 4 engine design.

It may have had something to do with the Luftwaffe's insane requirement that ALL bombers could be capable of dive bombing.

 

[AZrailwhale]

They could have easily had them in 1943. The DO225 dates back to 1940. But they refused to cut back the ME109s production because they would share the same engines. This is the reason the FW190 was brought out because it used a bomber engine.

It wasn't the lack of pilots, the lack of funds, the lack of production. It was the lack of sense.

The Bf-109 used Daimler Benz 605s the Do-335 used Daimler Benz 603sl

 

[AZrailwhale]

The 262 was ready for series production in 1943 but the Bf 109 was prioritized. Production of the 109 would have suffered and it was the most capable aircraft.



I agree, a routine was not possible, the Me 262 was faster. But there was something the Germans called "free hunt" and the allies used too I guess: Planes just fly around and look out for targets.



If we rank by victories, the P-51 was the best US aircraft with almost 5000 victories. The Bf 109 has almost 15000 victories (only Luftwaffe victories counted). So I stay with the Bf 109. We also have to take into account the BF 109 mostly fought under the condition of being outnumbered by the allies.

Sources:

North American P-51 Mustang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Messerschmitt Bf 109 operational history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Btw, Wikifants have edited the flying aces page and the list is gone, split into categories. You have to browse older versions of the entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces&oldid=1148348426

Cutting 109 production in favor of 262s in 1943 would have been a disaster for the Germans. The Jumo 004 engines had a mean time between failure of twenty hours. That means a complete engine swap of both engines every four sorties since the endurance of a 262 was no more than four hours and you don't want to depend on an engine of the verge of failure due to being worn out in combat.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Interesting! Hellcat is second with 5,156 victories and a 19:1 kill ratio.

The problem with the 262 was similar to the monster tanks, V2 and other nonsense the Germans did. They built high end stuff with rare very high end materials that broke down a lot and sucked oceans of gas. Its Jumo engines were notoriously bad, and of course, overengineered.

Also we should remember, the Germans had the 262, but the UK Meteor was being produced by 2nd H 1944 and the US Shooting Star in 1945, both with the more reliable Whittle type engine. Their advantage was temporary.

Unless the WAllies had bases in France, neither of the WAllied jets could reach Germany as escorts. It still would have fallen to the high performance prop fighters to escort the bombers.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The hellcat was used as a true fighter and not as a ground attack. It was the best carrier fighter used in WWII. (ducking from the F4U crowd).

It wasn't the best, but its pedestrian performance and stable approach made it easier for the average pilot to land on a carrier. The Hellcat's performance was good enough to kill Zeros and in the absence of better Japanese fighters, that's all that mattered. If the Japanese had been operating A7M Sams and N1K1kai Georges in 1943, things would have looked different and the F4U's better performance would have made it look a lot more attractive.

 

[AZrailwhale]

There was zero fighters that could escort the bombers the whole way there and back. The Fighters were used in relay, one group taking over at a pre determine point. The problem was, we didn't have enough p-38s to hand the mission and the P-47 didn't have nearly the range to contribute heavily. The losses of the P-38 was terrible. From 1942 to early 1943, the P-38 had an 11 to 1 loss rate. But the P-51B and C arrived in great numbers in December of 1943 and the P-38s and the P-47 were being released to fly fighter sweeps and attacking targets of opportunity. The Ferries, Trains, Ships and Trucks were being attack which cut down on the logistics. And it's a common thought that every war isn't fought with bullets, it's fought with logistics.

And fighters were allowed to keep their speed and altitude up and travel ahead of the bombers. All of a sudden, the large groups of luftwaffe fighters that were forming to attack the bombers were attacked themselves. Robin Olds (arguably the greatest Fighter Pilots) bagged 5 Luftwaffe Fighters in one day by him and his wing man attacking one of the huge fighter cells. This broke the cell up and most didn't have the fuel to fight more than a few minutes. I can bet the birds in the fighter cell didn't have a clue that they just had 2 P-38s cut a swath through their ranks.

One thing to remember about P-38 losses is that it fought the German's elite pilots in their own radar coverage over their own airfields.

 

[Bleipriester]

Pinpoint raids that did almost non-existent damage. Much like the "tip and run" raids by Luftwaffe fighter bombers after the failure of the BoB.

I don´t agree. Such attacks can do alot. Get a bridge destroyed, an ammo depot, ect. That can delay hostile actions or prevent them. Converting a pure fighter into a light bomber is suboptimal, though. On the other hand, why use the Me 262 as fighter when the Bf 109 performs so well?

 

[Vrenn]

I don´t agree. Such attacks can do alot. Get a bridge destroyed, an ammo depot, ect. That can delay hostile actions or prevent them. Converting a pure fighter into a light bomber is suboptimal, though. On the other hand, why use the Me 262 as fighter when the Bf 109 performs so well?

If the 109 performed so well it wouldn't have lost so much late in the war. You can make over 30,000 but if you end up losing almost all of them then they ain't so great. The 262 was not lost when it was at speed. I mean, what could catch it other than the YP-80 and those were only in England, Italy and the US. Although a squadron was sent to the Philippines just before VJ day. What killed the 262 was the fact that the Allied Fighters owned the skies and could follow them home and either hit them on approach or on the ground.

 

[Bleipriester]

If the 109 performed so well it wouldn't have lost so much late in the war. You can make over 30,000 but if you end up losing almost all of them then they ain't so great. The 262 was not lost when it was at speed. I mean, what could catch it other than the YP-80 and those were only in England, Italy and the US. Although a squadron was sent to the Philippines just before VJ day. What killed the 262 was the fact that the Allied Fighters owned the skies and could follow them home and either hit them on approach or on the ground.

I wonder how many allied planes existed for each German one late in the war. If 10 109 start to intercept massive bomber crowds with huge escort groups and still score, it must be good planes.

 

[Kruska]

I have no idea why the Luftwaffe kept trying the multi engined connected engines. They didn't work well. They kept trying to use them in lieu of a 4 engine design.

Several factors come to mind:

Propaganda;
The entire Nazi machinery was build and thrived on propaganda - therefore speed/records was a main priority,
Fastest car, fastest motorbike, fastest train, fastest ship, fastest aircraft, etc. As such a 109 was ordered/favored instead of a He112. The same applied to bombers - they had to be as fast or even faster then contemporary fighters, as such speed was prioritized over bomb-load - therefore nonsense like the Do-17 and it's followup family, Bf110 and e.g. the He177 came in.

War planing and visions of war:
Adolf was aware that there was not much support within the German population for war - especially not for a long term war.
So everything incl. the industry was laid out for a short term war - simply over-rolling the enemy via mass and surprise. In order to keep the mass and surprise a secret - production-plants needed to be small and widely spread.
Aside from France there was no adequate adversary in Europe, and England due to being Germanic would logically side with Germany. The Soviet-union, just filled with dumb and incapable Slavic and Bolshevik folk.
The war tactic was entirely based onto attacking/destroying military targets, aka precision strikes - therefore this dive-bomber theme. Strategic bombing aka destruction of civilian and industrial targets - wasn't a topic and died of entirely with the death of General Wever in 1936. Therefore no viable production plants in regards to size and layout - that would have permitted the large production of sizable aircraft.

War production:
It was very important for the Nazi's to keep the population happy and content - aka the supply of commodities to the public and providing jobs was a priority.
Resulting in many but small sized factories - e.g. the aircraft industry. Nowhere near the dimensions of British Bomber-plants, or Soviet plants, and absolutely nowhere near the production/assembly experience and size of US plants. Larger aircraft such as the 177 or the Gigant, the final assembly partially took place outside the factory - or due to factory space limitations at an extreme slow pace within the plants.

No state run or controlled industry;
Adolf due to his concept/interpretation of "loyalty" never touched his initial sponsors - the industry.
As such no efforts were made towards centralizing production - a fusion of different company ownership's - not even a centralization of R&D capabilities and human resources - Every single war producer ran his own R&D e.g. the Horton brothers!! That "favors" and corruption ruled the relationship between industry and the state procurement departments - was known.

So taking all these factors together - and the reason for Notlösungen (Stopgap solutions) from 1943 onward becomes obvious. Not to mention the issue of obtaining raw materials to increase production and to keep a war in increasing scale going.

Just my 2 cents

 

[AZrailwhale]

I don´t agree. Such attacks can do alot. Get a bridge destroyed, an ammo depot, ect. That can delay hostile actions or prevent them. Converting a pure fighter into a light bomber is suboptimal, though. On the other hand, why use the Me 262 as fighter when the Bf 109 performs so well?

A single or even a squadron of fighter-bombers isn't going to get many hits in a low-level high-speed pass. They didn't even have bomb sights. The 262 could carry either 2 550 pound or two 1100-pound bombs depending on the model. Try hitting a target at 500 mph with two bombs. Unless the pilot is very highly trained (which the Luftwaffe pilots in 1944 and 1945 weren't) the safest place to stand would be on the target.

 

[Kruska]

I wonder how many allied planes existed for each German one late in the war. If 10 109 start to intercept massive bomber crowds with huge escort groups and still score, it must be good planes.

E.g. example from my fathers accounts and his friends; regrading the time-frame 1944 July/August over France

From around 60 aircraft taking off - around 15 didn't even manage to take off. 5-10 radioed in "problems" and returned. 5-10 didn't manage to make the final assembly round and formation. (flew back or got shot down) Leaves around 30 Luftwaffe fighters for "action"
5-10 simply blasted off their ammo at meaningless ranges and 5-10 simply dived through the formation without hitting anything but making sure the guns were empty and getting their asses back home.
Leaves around 15-20 aircraft that factually attacked bombers.
5-15 had to break off their attack runs due to pursuit fighters coming in - engaging in aerial combat and trying to get home.
End of the mission - 3 bombers factually destroyed - 9 claimed, 2 pursuit-fighters factually downed - 7 claimed - Luftwaffe aircraft returning (80% damaged) 14, out of 30! - aka 50% total pilot loss-rate. Additionally around 5 dead pilots during takeoff and 10 damaged&destroyed aircraft.
As such around 25 Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed - 21 Luftwaffe pilots dead. Aircraft involved were around 40 Fw190's and around 20 109's.

USAAF; 3 bombers destroyed "B-24's" (my father claimed one badly damaged) & 2 pursuit-fighters destroyed (my fathers friend had claimed one "he was credited"- with three other Luftwaffe pilots involved) and everyone's ammo dispensed. All verified kills were done by Fw190 fighters.

Official Luftwaffe-Nazi news - 14 USAAF bombers destroyed (incl. Flak? I wouldn't know).

According to my father - the Fw190's packed a hell of a punch (armament) and could take heavy punishment - the 109's did not. The rest was individual pilot skill&luck.

Kind of tough to achieve the Endsieg

 

[Vrenn]

I wonder how many allied planes existed for each German one late in the war. If 10 109 start to intercept massive bomber crowds with huge escort groups and still score, it must be good planes.

Entering into WWII, the 109 was the best. But by late 1943, it had really ran it's course. In 1943, for luftwaffe, the FW190 was the superior of the two. But by the middle of 1944, the 190 had reached it's limit.

 

[Kruska]

Entering into WWII, the 109 was the best.

I always wonder as to how the e.g. BoB would have ended up or the attack onto Russia - with the Luftwaffe fielding the range capable He112 incl. 2x 7,92 and 2x20mm cannons - followed up by the He 100, and additionally the Fw190 coming in from 1941 onward.

Screw the 109