Greatest aircrat of WWII?

[Bleipriester]

Well it's primary function was to be a Pulk-Destroyer (aside from Adolf's usual "Blitz-Bomber" request).
It's Pulk-Destroyer armament layout was one 30mm central nose cannon, 2x20mm nose mounted and 2x30mm gondola mounted

Leaving aside the issue of non seasoned Luftwaffe pilots from end of 1943 onward - firing off their weapons at ranges beyond 200m at Bombers - the intended and practiced range by seasoned pilots was 30-80m
According to "kill&destruction" surveys - the German 30mm cannons did a hell of a wrecking job onto Allied Bombers.

A very potential aircraft - in regards to speed, technology and armament would have been the H219B fitted with two JJ 222 engines or the envisaged DB614 engines. There was simply far too much experimental going on in view of an insufficient industrial capacity.

When you have limited industrial capacity, you are looking out of the ultimate superior weapons that would not need to be built in numbers the opponents can do. And the Blitz-Bomber thing of Adolf is also consequent. Such a bomber would allow for raids when the opponents own the skies.

 

[Kruska]

When you have limited industrial capacity, you are looking out of the ultimate superior weapons that would not need to be built in numbers the opponents can do. And the Blitz-Bomber thing of Adolf is also consequent. Such a bomber would allow for raids when the opponents own the skies.

The issue was that ALL these "wonder-aircraft" were started in the early 1940's - assuming Luftwaffe superiority. Once that superiority was gone from mid 1943 onward - All these neglected or very slow moving projects were reactivated and pressed into development and production, without any viable strategy or centralized efforts.

Whilst the Luftwaffe Field-commanders pressed and advocated - Pulk-Destroyers - and air-superiority fighters, (basically the Fw-190 family) from 1943 onward, Adolf and his brown-noser's pressed for attack and offensive aircraft (encouraging all manufacturers to come up with their "Blitz-bomber") - causing huge time-delays, which ultimately resulted in the total failure and destruction of the Luftwaffe, which then ended up from 1944 onward with inadequate produced and delivered MRCA's. E.g. the Arado 234 and Me 262 strike bombers, and nonsense aircraft like the Do335 and He177.

Galland was the only chap that manged to get permission to set up a pure 262 interceptor unit (4 month before wars end) - the 163 was a joke not to mention the 162.

According to my Father around 350 Me 262's were hanging around at Leipheim and Lechfeld - most in the strike version - improperly manufactured and equipped - aka useless. Whilst Galland's unit could barely field 20 aircraft and with more then 50 destroyed on takeoff due to inexperienced pilots and poorly produced 262's.

Adolf's Blitz-Bombers were a pure product out of his fantasy and inability to grasp/face reality.

 

[Bleipriester]

The issue was that ALL these "wonder-aircraft" were started in the early 1940's - assuming Luftwaffe superiority. Once that superiority was gone from mid 1943 onward - All these neglected or very slow moving projects were reactivated and pressed into development and production, without any viable strategy or centralized efforts.

Whilst the Luftwaffe Field-commanders pressed and advocated - Pulk-Destroyers - and air-superiority fighters, (basically the Fw-190 family) from 1943 onward, Adolf and his brown-noser's pressed for attack and offensive aircraft (encouraging all manufacturers to come up with their "Blitz-bomber") - causing huge time-delays, which ultimately resulted in the total failure and destruction of the Luftwaffe, which then ended up from 1944 onward with inadequate produced and delivered MRCA's. E.g. the Arado 234 and Me 262 strike bombers, and nonsense aircraft like the Do335 and He177.

Galland was the only chap that manged to get permission to set up a pure 262 interceptor unit (4 month before wars end) - the 163 was a joke not to mention the 162.

According to my Father around 350 Me 262's were hanging around at Leipheim and Lechfeld - most in the strike version - improperly manufactured and equipped - aka useless. Whilst Galland's unit could barely field 20 aircraft and with more then 50 destroyed on takeoff due to inexperienced pilots and poorly produced 262's.

Adolf's Blitz-Bombers were a pure product out of his fantasy and inability to grasp/face reality.

Of course, the German leadership was aware of the fact that they have limited means already in 1940. Almost everything was in short supply.
And yes, I already mentioned this in the thread: Hitler ordered the 262 to be a "Blitzbomber", even banned the term "Jäger" for the aircraft. Takeoff and landing were the weak spots of the Me 262, its low thrust resulted in a slow acceleration and the allies used to attack the 262 during takeoff/landing.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Actually, for firepower, there was one model of the P-63A with it's 1 37mm canon and 4 50 cals. The Canons that the luftwaffe used were big but didn't have much range. It was harder to hit anything from medium to distant range with them. The DO335 carried one 30 mm and 2 20mms.

One thing we have to understand, the Do335 had a cruise speed of about 450mph which was faster than most fighters running full up. Had they not dogged the production and spent some of those bucks that were spent on the ME109 on it the skies over Germany might have been different. The Do335 wasn't much of a slow turn and burn fighter but it was a bomber killer.

The P-61 had four 20mm and four .50 calibers.

 

[Kruska]

Of course, the German leadership was aware of the fact that they have limited means already in 1940. Almost everything was in short supply.
And yes, I already mentioned this in the thread: Hitler ordered the 262 to be a "Blitzbomber", even banned the term "Jäger" for the aircraft. Takeoff and landing were the weak spots of the Me 262, its low thrust resulted in a slow acceleration and the allies used to attack the 262 during takeoff/landing.

I am just pointing out that instead of realizing and pushing potential aircraft such as the Me262, He280 & the Fw190 family - no priority was given to produce such aircraft and to restructure the Aero-industry accordingly, due to Adolf and his brown-nosers propagating all out victory for 1941- till 1945.
Therefore from mid 1944 this MRCA legend was enforced and propagated, and from 1945 onward everything was termed Notlösung (emergency-solution) - since Germany simply had no way to produce needed "specific" and complete aircraft.

As for the issue - Me262 being attacked during takeoff-landing - that is indeed an interesting topic, since aside from sparse individual proven accounts - there were no such routine attacks conducted by the Allies - since they didn't even know about the specific airfields nor did they know when these "wonder-aircraft' would take off or land. (This is foremost based on Postwar stories - trying to excuse the e.g. 262 failure). Especially around 262 airfields and sites the Flak potential was enormous compared with those housing "standard" fighters.

That so called USAAF pursuit fighters did what their name suggests with any Luftwaffe aircraft trying to get home, is understood. My father experienced this many times - piloting a Fw190. When the USAAF attacked (bombed) the Lechfeld & Kaufering fields in March/April 1945 - they had absolutely no effect onto the operable 262's since they were placed very isolated on well camouflaged side-roads and fields unknown to the Allies and inter-seeded with a dozen fake airfields and actual airfields housing hundreds of discarded Luftwaffe aircraft. Even brand new ones like the 262/410's & Fw-190D's, being inoperable due to missing parts, insufficient quality and totally inadequate pilots.

My father was relegated to a Platzschutz & Factory-protection Staffel from Jan/Feb - May 1945 in the Augsburg&Lechfeld vicinity. He and his pilot friends used to get very angry and upset, when the timeline 1944-1945 came into a discussion - especially in regards to the 262 and other wonder-aircraft.

BTW - most of the Luftwaffe pilots I had met and spoken to and who had encountered USAAF aircraft - the most respected - even feared one, was the P-47. As such I would tend to vote for the P-47 as the best "factually existing" piston fighter in WW2, unlike the Fw-190D-13 that my father got to fly in the last 6-8 weeks of the war, and didn't factually exist in any worth-mentioning numbers.

 

[Vrenn]

Well it's primary function was to be a Pulk-Destroyer (aside from Adolf's usual "Blitz-Bomber" request).
It's Pulk-Destroyer armament layout was one 30mm central nose cannon, 2x20mm nose mounted and 2x30mm gondola mounted

Leaving aside the issue of non seasoned Luftwaffe pilots from end of 1943 onward - firing off their weapons at ranges beyond 200m at Bombers - the intended and practiced range by seasoned pilots was 30-80m
According to "kill&destruction" surveys - the German 30mm cannons did a hell of a wrecking job onto Allied Bombers.

A very potential aircraft - in regards to speed, technology and armament would have been the H219B fitted with two JJ 222 engines or the envisaged DB614 engines. There was simply far too much experimental going on in view of an insufficient industrial capacity.

I have no idea why the Luftwaffe kept trying the multi engined connected engines. They didn't work well. They kept trying to use them in lieu of a 4 engine design.

 

[Vrenn]

The few planes built didn´t make a difference, no matter the fuel used.

They could have easily had them in 1943. The DO225 dates back to 1940. But they refused to cut back the ME109s production because they would share the same engines. This is the reason the FW190 was brought out because it used a bomber engine.

It wasn't the lack of pilots, the lack of funds, the lack of production. It was the lack of sense.

 

[Vrenn]

They could have easily had them in 1943. The DO225 dates back to 1940. But they refused to cut back the ME109s production because they would share the same engines. This is the reason the FW190 was brought out because it used a bomber engine.

It wasn't the lack of pilots, the lack of funds, the lack of production. It was the lack of sense.

I shouldn't let America off the hook on this either. Let's look at the P-38 and the jugheads in the DOD (War Department)

The P-38 could only effectively utilize right around 1300 hp per engine. By the time the H model came out it was already pushing well over 1400. And the J and L was pushing 1600 hp. This is why the one model of the K using a paddle type prop was an absolute nasty fighter for speed, dog fighting with it's well over 1800hp. The fact is, even though the J and L versions were detuned, at 1600 hp, it still could not use all it's power.


The reason given is that it would cost too much to modify it to the better prop. The truth of the matter is, that was just an excuse. I spent 5 years working on Recips including Cargo and Attack and know what it takes to modify those props. You see, the blade is all that would have to be changed. We regularly changed blades. Afterall, they are just held in by the hub. The Prop, if it runs out of usable thrust becomes a drag factor as it tries to get more bite. That means the blade angle would have to be limited but if you go beyond a certain HP, you end up with a runaway or overspeed engine. Not something you want to happen when those engines can go up like a 500lb bomb. Usually, they would throw some part and lock up.

By the time the P-38H came along they had cured the engine problems and was coming up with the dive flap for the compression problem. But it still could not use the full hp of it's engines. Even so, the H and the J model flew at a speed of 433 max while the L, being heavier, flew at about 411 top speed. Even though the prop was not able to utilize the engines HP, the P-38J-25-lo was superior to anything the Japanese or the Germans had save the ME-262.

Knowing that the blade mod would be very cheap and simple, why didn't they do that? There was a p-38k-1-lo Model. A single unit. They modded it to take the P-47C/D prop. And they allowed the engine to be retuned to over 1875hp. The K model had a climb rate of over 5000fpm versus the P-51 at 4250. And that was with the K fully combat loaded. The did a flyoff with the K flying against the P-51D and the P-47D and it smoked them in all areas.

IN order to use the P-47C/D prop, the reduction transmission would have to be changed and the cowling would have to be modified. We are talking about Feb, 1943 here. With the P-51B being experimentally flown, it was decided not to take the P-38 off the production for the required 2 weeks. You see, the Military couldn't get enough P-38s because of it's unique broad uses that no other bird could do it all. The P-38H was damned close to being able to do it all.

Okay, now that we know why they didn't do it, here is a mechanics view. By just changing the blades, all the other things they had to change would not have been necessary. They still had to manufacture the blades but by giving them slightly more surface area, they could have utilized the HP of the engines. It appears that it was more a political reason than an engineering one.

So when I ding the Germans, the Americans made equal blunders.

 

[Bleipriester]

I am just pointing out that instead of realizing and pushing potential aircraft such as the Me262, He280 & the Fw190 family - no priority was given to produce such aircraft and to restructure the Aero-industry accordingly, due to Adolf and his brown-nosers propagating all out victory for 1941- till 1945.
Therefore from mid 1944 this MRCA legend was enforced and propagated, and from 1945 onward everything was termed Notlösung (emergency-solution) - since Germany simply had no way to produce needed "specific" and complete aircraft.

The 262 was ready for series production in 1943 but the Bf 109 was prioritized. Production of the 109 would have suffered and it was the most capable aircraft.

As for the issue - Me262 being attacked during takeoff-landing - that is indeed an interesting topic, since aside from sparse individual proven accounts - there were no such routine attacks conducted by the Allies - since they didn't even know about the specific airfields nor did they know when these "wonder-aircraft' would take off or land. (This is foremost based on Postwar stories - trying to excuse the e.g. 262 failure). Especially around 262 airfields and sites the Flak potential was enormous compared with those housing "standard" fighters.

That so called USAAF pursuit fighters did what their name suggests with any Luftwaffe aircraft trying to get home, is understood. My father experienced this many times - piloting a Fw190. When the USAAF attacked (bombed) the Lechfeld & Kaufering fields in March/April 1945 - they had absolutely no effect onto the operable 262's since they were placed very isolated on well camouflaged side-roads and fields unknown to the Allies and inter-seeded with a dozen fake airfields and actual airfields housing hundreds of discarded Luftwaffe aircraft. Even brand new ones like the 262/410's & Fw-190D's, being inoperable due to missing parts, insufficient quality and totally inadequate pilots.

My father was relegated to a Platzschutz & Factory-protection Staffel from Jan/Feb - May 1945 in the Augsburg&Lechfeld vicinity. He and his pilot friends used to get very angry and upset, when the timeline 1944-1945 came into a discussion - especially in regards to the 262 and other wonder-aircraft.

I agree, a routine was not possible, the Me 262 was faster. But there was something the Germans called "free hunt" and the allies used too I guess: Planes just fly around and look out for targets.

BTW - most of the Luftwaffe pilots I had met and spoken to and who had encountered USAAF aircraft - the most respected - even feared one, was the P-47. As such I would tend to vote for the P-47 as the best "factually existing" piston fighter in WW2, unlike the Fw-190D-13 that my father got to fly in the last 6-8 weeks of the war, and didn't factually exist in any worth-mentioning numbers.

If we rank by victories, the P-51 was the best US aircraft with almost 5000 victories. The Bf 109 has almost 15000 victories (only Luftwaffe victories counted). So I stay with the Bf 109. We also have to take into account the BF 109 mostly fought under the condition of being outnumbered by the allies.

Sources:

North American P-51 Mustang - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Messerschmitt Bf 109 operational history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Btw, Wikifants have edited the flying aces page and the list is gone, split into categories. You have to browse older versions of the entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces&oldid=1148348426

 

[Zincwarrior]

If we rank by victories, the P-51 was the best US aircraft with almost 6000 victories.

Interesting! Hellcat is second with 5,156 victories and a 19:1 kill ratio.

The problem with the 262 was similar to the monster tanks, V2 and other nonsense the Germans did. They built high end stuff with rare very high end materials that broke down a lot and sucked oceans of gas. Its Jumo engines were notoriously bad, and of course, overengineered.

Also we should remember, the Germans had the 262, but the UK Meteor was being produced by 2nd H 1944 and the US Shooting Star in 1945, both with the more reliable Whittle type engine. Their advantage was temporary.

 

[Vrenn]

The 262 was ready for series production in 1943 but the Bf 109 was prioritized. Production of the 109 would have suffered and it was the most capable aircraft.



I agree, a routine was not possible, the Me 262 was faster. But there was something the Germans called "free hunt" and the allies used too I guess: Planes just fly around and look out for targets.

The 3 long ranged US fighters could afford to do that. In fact, early 1943, they changed to way the fighters operated and seperated them from the bomber formation. Before, the P-38 was trying to fend off the Luftwaffe starting at about 150 mph. Neither the P-38 or the P-47 was any good at that speed and it takes time to spool up. Also, before they released the fighters, the Luftwaffe could almost do anything they wished. But it's tough to form up a 50 ship formation when you haven't that much fuel when a couple of P-38s dive through your formation and bag 4 or more of your fighters. Talk about causing a ClusterF*** where the Luftwaffe breaks formation trying to figure out if they are next or not. Both the P-38 and the P-47 did that after the change in fighter policy.

If we rank by victories, the P-51 was the best US aircraft with almost 5000 victories. The Bf 109 has almost 15000 victories (only Luftwaffe victories counted). So I stay with the Bf 109. We also have to take into account the BF 109 mostly fought under the condition of being outnumbered by the allies.

That's because the P-38 and the P-47s mission changed and they spend a lot of their time blowing up targets on the ground. And many of the real good Luftwaffe Pilots had already been killed BEFORE the P-51B and C arrived on the scene. The Fighter Sweep was well on it's way by the end of 1943.

 

[Bleipriester]

Interesting! Hellcat is second with 5,156 victories and a 19:1 kill ratio.

I reduced to 5000 because the wikipedia source is more reliable.

 

[Vrenn]

Interesting! Hellcat is second with 5,156 victories and a 19:1 kill ratio.

The hellcat was used as a true fighter and not as a ground attack. It was the best carrier fighter used in WWII. (ducking from the F4U crowd).

 

[Bleipriester]

The 3 long ranged US fighters could afford to do that. In fact, early 1943, they changed to way the fighters operated and seperated them from the bomber formation. Before, the P-38 was trying to fend off the Luftwaffe starting at about 150 mph. Neither the P-38 or the P-47 was any good at that speed and it takes time to spool up. Also, before they released the fighters, the Luftwaffe could almost do anything they wished. But it's tough to form up a 50 ship formation when you haven't that much fuel when a couple of P-38s dive through your formation and bag 4 or more of your fighters. Talk about causing a ClusterF*** where the Luftwaffe breaks formation trying to figure out if they are next or not. Both the P-38 and the P-47 did that after the change in fighter policy.




That's because the P-38 and the P-47s mission changed and they spend a lot of their time blowing up targets on the ground. And many of the real good Luftwaffe Pilots had already been killed BEFORE the P-51B and C arrived on the scene. The Fighter Sweep was well on it's way by the end of 1943.

Sure there were ground attack missions, also for Germans and Russians who had actual ground attack aircraft (Schlachtflieger type). But 15000 is just a too high figure. You can count in what you like, the Bf 109 will still come out as the best plane.

 

[Vrenn]

Sure there were ground attack missions, also for Germans and Russians who had actual ground attack aircraft (Schlachtflieger type). But 15000 is just a too high figure. You can count in what you like, the Bf 109 will still come out as the best plane.

It depends on what time you are using. Going into WWII from 1939 to about late 1942 you would be partially correct. Like most 109ers, you are still leaving out the FW190 which as actually a better aircraft and could hange with either the P-47 or the P-51. In early 1943, the ME109 was showing it's age. The best 109 in my mind was the ME109F before the G got so damned fat and the K wasn't any better but it had more power to help make that factor up. The P-47 and the P-51B took away the dive that the 109 had and the last thing you would try to avoid a P-38 is to climb in avoidance. Now it becomes turn and burn which the 109 wasn't very good at while the big 3 just got better and better.

So let's not look at the number built as the reason. Let's look at what makes it survive. Yes, more 109s were made but more 109s were lost.

 

[Zincwarrior]

(ducking from the F4U crowd).

(throws a wrench at your head) Damn he ducked... as a carrier plane it was less fickle. Corsair was a better fighter (arguably the best US fighter of the war), but a worse carrier plane.

But yes to above, not including 9th AF, the fighter screen adopted the practice of being cut loose completely from the bombers on the way back to free range and blow stuff up. Airfields, trains, the occasional staff car. . .

“The Little Friends” – Fighter Escorts of the Eighth Air Force, USAAF in the ETO 1944/45

This one is a multifaceted Feature Article containing a biography of the pilot, a description of the build and a piece describing the importance of the ground attack role the “Little Friends&…

making-history.ca

By the Summer of 1944 however, the fighter mission was altogether different. Still, the primary activity was long range escort of the heavy bombers. And yet, on the 12th of August these same escort fighter groups delivered the greatest ground attack ever. On this day alone, the VIII Fighter Command flew 46 missions comprising 1,326 sorties destroying hundreds of railroad cars, locomotives, trucks, oil tanks, vehicles, bridges, buildings, and many other targets. And nineteen aircraft on the ground.

 

[Vrenn]

(throws a wrench at your head) Damn he ducked... as a carrier plane it was less fickle. Corsair was a better fighter (arguably the best US fighter of the war), but a worse carrier plane.

But yes to above, not including 9th AF, the fighter screen adopted the practice of being cut loose completely from the bombers on the way back to free range and blow stuff up. Airfields, trains, the occasional staff car. . .

“The Little Friends” – Fighter Escorts of the Eighth Air Force, USAAF in the ETO 1944/45

This one is a multifaceted Feature Article containing a biography of the pilot, a description of the build and a piece describing the importance of the ground attack role the “Little Friends&…

making-history.ca

There was zero fighters that could escort the bombers the whole way there and back. The Fighters were used in relay, one group taking over at a pre determine point. The problem was, we didn't have enough p-38s to hand the mission and the P-47 didn't have nearly the range to contribute heavily. The losses of the P-38 was terrible. From 1942 to early 1943, the P-38 had an 11 to 1 loss rate. But the P-51B and C arrived in great numbers in December of 1943 and the P-38s and the P-47 were being released to fly fighter sweeps and attacking targets of opportunity. The Ferries, Trains, Ships and Trucks were being attack which cut down on the logistics. And it's a common thought that every war isn't fought with bullets, it's fought with logistics.

And fighters were allowed to keep their speed and altitude up and travel ahead of the bombers. All of a sudden, the large groups of luftwaffe fighters that were forming to attack the bombers were attacked themselves. Robin Olds (arguably the greatest Fighter Pilots) bagged 5 Luftwaffe Fighters in one day by him and his wing man attacking one of the huge fighter cells. This broke the cell up and most didn't have the fuel to fight more than a few minutes. I can bet the birds in the fighter cell didn't have a clue that they just had 2 P-38s cut a swath through their ranks.

 

[Bleipriester]

It depends on what time you are using. Going into WWII from 1939 to about late 1942 you would be partially correct. Like most 109ers, you are still leaving out the FW190 which as actually a better aircraft and could hange with either the P-47 or the P-51. In early 1943, the ME109 was showing it's age. The best 109 in my mind was the ME109F before the G got so damned fat and the K wasn't any better but it had more power to help make that factor up. The P-47 and the P-51B took away the dive that the 109 had and the last thing you would try to avoid a P-38 is to climb in avoidance. Now it becomes turn and burn which the 109 wasn't very good at while the big 3 just got better and better.

So let's not look at the number built as the reason. Let's look at what makes it survive. Yes, more 109s were made but more 109s were lost.

15.000 is the number of aerial victories by Luftwaffe flying aces with over 100+ victories with the Bf 109. It means, that a group of only 105 Bf 109 pilots scored nearly 15.000 aerial victories. You will have to add the victories of all other German Bf 109 pilots to this figure. In the result, the Bf 109 is by far the best WWII aircraft, without any actual competition. It was the actual "wonder-aircraft".

As for the P-47, a German pilot is being quoted as this:
"The P-47 was very heavy, too heavy for some maneuvers. We would see it coming from behind, and pull up fast, and the P-47 couldn't follow and we came around and got on its tail in this way."

Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Vrenn]

15.000 is the number of aerial victories by Luftwaffe flying aces with over 100+ victories with the Bf 109. It means, that a group of only 105 Bf 109 pilots scored nearly 15.000 aerial victories. You will have to add the victories of all other German Bf 109 pilots to this figure. In the result, the Bf 109 is by far the best WWII aircraft, without any actual competition. It was the actual "wonder-aircraft".

As for the P-47, a German pilot is being quoted as this:
"The P-47 was very heavy, too heavy for some maneuvers. We would see it coming from behind, and pull up fast, and the P-47 couldn't follow and we came around and got on its tail in this way."

Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And if you talked to more than one Luftwaffe Fighter Ace about the P-38 you got all kinds of answers. I am retired AF and find that our Fighter Pilots all believe with all their being that they are the best and all others will perish against them. But in the back of their minds they remember that they can lose and losing in a Fighter usually means you are dead.

 

[Bleipriester]

And if you talked to more than one Luftwaffe Fighter Ace about the P-38 you got all kinds of answers. I am retired AF and find that our Fighter Pilots all believe with all their being that they are the best and all others will perish against them. But in the back of their minds they remember that they can lose and losing in a Fighter usually means you are dead.

Germany was on par with the US back then. An actual opponent. Innovative and strong. If the war was only between the USA and Germany, no nation would have been able to defeat the other. I think it bears no shame to lose to a Bf 109 or a P-51. And it is quite normal to think the own nation has the best people.
Today is different. The US has probably the most capable aircraft and they combine them many flying hours. No other nation can compete. A US general recently said it would take four to five years to get Ukraine a working F-16 fleet.