Great News - Gov. Christ Vetoes Teacher Pay Bill

chanel

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Gov. Charlie Crist on Thursday killed the bill that prompted sick-outs, sit-ins, street protests and a flood of opposition throughout the state as Republican lawmakers vowed to try again next year — if not sooner.

Calling it "significantly flawed," Crist decried Senate Bill 6, which would link teacher pay to student test scores and eliminate tenure for all new hires, as both overreaching and too vague.

"We must start over," he said.
Gov. Crist vetoes teacher tenure bill - St. Petersburg Times

Just got back from Fla. and this was all over the news. As a special education teacher whose high school students are generally reading at the fifth grade level, I am relieved that Gov. Crist and others see how flawed this idea is.

Tenure needs to be tweaked. Pay scales may need to be revamped. But tying salary to test scores is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the 4th grade teacher be penalized because the students had a crappy 3rd grade teacher? Why should high school teachers be penalized for 18 year olds who only come to school twice a week? There's got to be a better way.
 

JenyEliza

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Crist at his worst. A stupid decision on his part.

He's going to ensure the children of Florida remain uneducated and unsuccessful.

This affects my nephews.

Great going, Crist. Folding to the pressure of the teacher's union.
 

Ravi

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I'm happy he did this...and so are all the teachers, even the conservative ones. It was a boneheaded idea.

Now if they would only kill the FCAT.
 

JenyEliza

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Ravi's all for poor teachers remaining in Florida classrooms simply because they have "tenure".

Ravi doesn't want to reward the GOOD teachers in Florida with increased pay and bonuses?

Ravi doesn't want to measure the performance of Florida students with the FCAT becasue Ravi is afraid these tests will show Florida's teachers are EPIC FAILURES at imparting knowlege and love of learning to Florida's next generation.

Apparently same can be said of Crist.

Way. To. Go. :clap2:

/end sarcasm
 

Dr.Traveler

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Ravi's all for poor teachers remaining in Florida classrooms simply because they have "tenure".
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you do away with Tenure you'll have to find some other perk to bring teachers into the industry.

I know I get job offers at 1.5x to 2x my current salary as a professor. I love my job, but I love my son more. Without the job security from tenure, I'd have to take those jobs. As it is, I can justify staying in a job I love and am successful at because I know I'll have job security for him.
 

JenyEliza

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Ravi's all for poor teachers remaining in Florida classrooms simply because they have "tenure".
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you do away with Tenure you'll have to find some other perk to bring teachers into the industry.

I know I get job offers at 1.5x to 2x my current salary as a professor. I love my job, but I love my son more. Without the job security from tenure, I'd have to take those jobs. As it is, I can justify staying in a job I love and am successful at because I know I'll have job security for him.
That perk you want was in the bill you're applauding Crist for killing....that perk is called MONEY. Cold hard cash. US Currency.

Bonuses based on teacher performance and student achievement.

WHAT? You scared you can't teach well enough to make the cut and EARN those bonuses and financial incentives like those in the REAL world? The rest of us LOSE our jobs if we perform as poorly as our educational system has for the last 40 years.

We get FIRED.

Obviously you're afraid of pay for performance....that's why you cling to Tenure for dear life.

Chickenshit. :funnyface:
 
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chanel

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Wrong Jen. Unfortunately there are people in this country (and on this board) that would be fine with getting rid of every teacher who makes over $50K a year. Money would be the issue when it came to layoffs - not performance.

And let's just say the teachers who have the most complaints from parents are usually the ones doing their jobs - not the ones who just want to be "popular". If merit raises were based on report cards, what teacher in their right mind would fail a kid? Besides me. lol

Be careful what you wish for. Low salaries, little respect, and intense "test anxiety" are a recipe for disaster. You think it's bad now?

This was a bad, bad law and Crist realized it. Children are not widgets and schools are not factories. If you want accountability - include the students and parents as well.
 

JenyEliza

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Wrong Jen. Unfortunately there are people in this country (and on this board) that would be fine with getting rid of every teacher who makes over $50K a year. Money would be the issue when it came to layoffs - not performance.

And let's just say the teachers who have the most complaints from parents are usually the ones doing their jobs - not the ones who just want to be "popular". If merit raises were based on report cards, what teacher in their right mind would fail a kid? Besides me. lol

Be careful what you wish for. Low salaries, little respect, and intense "test anxiety" are a recipe for disaster. You think it's bad now?

This was a bad, bad law and Crist realized it. Children are not widgets and schools are not factories. If you want accountability - include the students and parents as well.
We included BOTH parents and CHILDREN here in GA, but we still have an informal Tenure system that does NOT hold teachers accountable.

In GA:

1. School attendance is mandatory until the age of 16--ANY absences over and above 15 for the entire school year (excused with a doctor's note, or unexcused makes no matter) will find the child AND parents before a Juvenile Court Judge.

Penalties for the CHILD start at formal probation and drug testing, on up to confinement in the youth detention center. Pentalies for the PARENT include jail time and fines up to (IIRC) $5,000 per finding of guilt.

2. A driver's license is graduated and tied to a child's attendance and grades. Don't go to school under the age of 18? You don't drive. Miss more than 15 days, you don't drive.

I have been through the attendance process in Juvenile Court recently (my son had Swine Flu, was hospitalized and missed more than 15 days last fall). I can tell you they DO NOT give a shit....especially the guy who looked over his shoulder while they pee tested my innocent 15 year old. The probation officer we met with was only slightly nicer.

The ONLY reason I did not get jail time and a huge fine was I had DOCUMENTATION with me to prove that he was not skipping, but VERY SICK and that was why he has missed time this year.

What more accountability should we add here? :eusa_think:
 
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chanel

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That's unfortunate for your son, but I'm glad GA is taking it seriously. Here in NJ, we allow HS students 18 days "unexcused" and practically unlimited "excused". We allow students to "make up time" on Saturdays and after school - with no instruction of course. Imagine the cost of that? And students that are missing 40+ days of high school have probably been accustomed to doing that since grade school. The teachers are forced to pass them along because it's "cruel" to keep a 10 year old in the 2nd grade.

In New York City, the attendance tracking system routinely catches fully 30 percent of the city’s 1.1 million students in its grip each year. That means that almost a third of all students are out a month or more.

New York is not alone. Defining a “chronic truant” as a student who banks 21 or more days of unexcused absences in one year, Florida reports that 14.8 percent of high school students meet this criterion. In Denver, where chronic truancy is defined at a much lower level (10 such days per year), 23 percent of eighth graders and 35 percent of 12th graders in 2005 were classified as chronic truants. During the 2005-6 school year in the Milwaukee Public Schools, 32 percent of elementary school students, 46 percent of middle school students and 74 percent of high school students were classified as habitual truants (five or more unexcused absences in one semester).
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/opinion/02levy-1.html

Should the Florida teachers be held accountable for those 15%? Should the Florida teachers keep that 10 year old in 2nd grade indefinitely? Should the Florida teachers recommend "special education" for every child who doesn't study or do his homework and therefore has bad grades?

Tenure is more important than ever today. With the economy in the crapper, everyone envies the job security and teachers have become public enemy #1. (well maybe #2 - people still hate lawyers more). But as I said on another thread - give it a try. You'll either love it or hate it - but you will be convinced that teachers in general are definitely NOT overpaid.

Oh and I'm with Dr. Traveler. I took a huge cut in pay to go into public service. Just for the benefits and job security. Choices...
 

Terral

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Hi chanel:

Gov. Charlie Crist on Thursday killed the bill that prompted sick-outs, sit-ins, street protests and a flood of opposition throughout the state as Republican lawmakers vowed to try again next year — if not sooner.

Calling it "significantly flawed," ...
While this silly bill is definitely flawed, Charlie Crist has big budget problem that requires immediate action! I was born in Florida and I live in Florida and even went to school with Charlie Crist here in Florida, but Charlie is just another Open Border Lobby Idiot like Bill Nelson and Mel Martinez and all the other corrupt politicians looking the other way here in Florida. Let me give you a few facts about why Florida is going down the tubes like California:

1. One out of every ten Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals live in Florida.

2. Foreclosures and bankruptcies are skyrocketing in Florida, because Illegal Aliens are displacing Florida workers from JOBS.

3. Entire neighborhoods stand empty in Florida, which means nobody to pay their taxes and the local school budgets are collapsing.

Everyone from Bush/Obama and Charlie Crist and the state police down to the local sheriff is looking the other way, while Floridians drown in a sea of Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals; which is destroying the Florida Consumer Base and the Tax Base and the Housing Prices. The masons and carpenters I know have already left Florida, or they are on their way to moving out of Florida, because nobody is protecting our jobs and we must move into other states were someone in authority is doing something about the Illegal Alien Invasion. You cannot allow Illegal Aliens and their unscrupulous employers to engage in this Illegal Activity without completely destroying our Western Way of Life. The Florida Economy is IMPLODING and Charlie Crist is part of the cotton-picking problem ...

GL,

Terral
 

JenyEliza

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3. Entire neighborhoods stand empty in Florida

Terral
Where?

And holy shit on Georgia. School isn't supposed to be prison but they sure have made it into one.
Yes, yes they have.

I have been hauled into Juvenile Court THREE times this school year (by an over-zealous school Social Worker anxious to keep her job and justify her existence) over my son's Swine Flu absences. THREE TIMES....and each time they "dead docket" his case when I show documentation to prove he was not skipping school.

The last time we got all the way to the pee-test and probation officer, before they finally believed me and "dead docketed" his "case again".

Once I found how WHO was filing and re-filing this case against me (and my son), I started crawling up the asses of our Principal, Assistant Principal and the school board. I had to threaten LAWSUIT to get them to back the fuck off.

I expect to receive another summons before the end of the school year. The Sherrif likes to deliver those around 10 or 11 pm, when they pound on the door with (what sounds like) a battering ram and wake the whole apartment building up. Such fun! I get to apologize to my neighbors again for waking them and their kids up over this bullshit.

This law was written with the best of intentions--to "hold parents and students accountable", as a teacher in this thread waxes poetic about doing.

However, my family and I have been absolutely ABUSED by our school system and judicial system through this law.

I have had enough. They summon me to court again, I am bringing my father's army of lawyers with me, and I will paper the county courthouse with lawsuits---aimed personally at those involved in abusing my son, myself and my family. I will seek millions in damages for the harm they have caused our family (and they *have* caused real, documented harm--economically, emotionally and otherwise).

This law was meant to be used to keep TRUANT kids in school, and to make sure the parents got the message that their kids had to attend school. At one point, we had kids missing 40, 50 and 60 days of school, with THIER PARENTS BLESSING.

THOSE are the people this law was aimed at....not parents like me who are working their ass off to keep their kids excited about school, to help them pursue their goals and to get them through to college. I have moved heaven and earth to get my kids into a better school than the high school next door to our run down apartment complex. Right now I am without a car (totaled in a wreck two days before spring break), and they are STILL going to school every day---the NCLB high school is 25 miles away. And they GO.

I triple dog dare the fucking liberal little tart doo-gooder social worker in the guidance office who is desperate to keep her job to come after me again. I'd name her name here, but I'm saving that for the HEFTY lawsuit I will file against her. I'm in need of a nice new car. She'll be buying me one. Probably one apiece for my twins as well. :D

Enough is e-fucking-nuff!! :evil:
 
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Annie

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Gov. Charlie Crist on Thursday killed the bill that prompted sick-outs, sit-ins, street protests and a flood of opposition throughout the state as Republican lawmakers vowed to try again next year — if not sooner.

Calling it "significantly flawed," Crist decried Senate Bill 6, which would link teacher pay to student test scores and eliminate tenure for all new hires, as both overreaching and too vague.

"We must start over," he said.
Gov. Crist vetoes teacher tenure bill - St. Petersburg Times

Just got back from Fla. and this was all over the news. As a special education teacher whose high school students are generally reading at the fifth grade level, I am relieved that Gov. Crist and others see how flawed this idea is.

Tenure needs to be tweaked. Pay scales may need to be revamped. But tying salary to test scores is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the 4th grade teacher be penalized because the students had a crappy 3rd grade teacher? Why should high school teachers be penalized for 18 year olds who only come to school twice a week? There's got to be a better way.
I'm not in FL so I don't know all the ins and outs of what was proposed and vetoed. I wonder though, what alternatives Crist put forward?

Tenure shouldn't be used as a 'job for life, so now I can ride.'

If as in the case of NCLB, there were no 'proportional increases' in test scores tied to pay raises or whatever is involved in this, I agree with your take; ie., if a 6th grade teacher has a student test at 4.6, when the previous year that student tested at 2.0, that's a huge achievement gain. The measurement must be on gain, not grade level.

One problem we're having here, testing is being done in early to mid-October. Considering the first two weeks are 'reviewing and refreshing' the teacher has only been 'teaching' their students a month or less, depending on grade.

There should also be 'exclusion in results' of children that are not capable of academic gains, due to physical or IQ reasons, but nonetheless through 'inclusion' are in age level classrooms.
 

JenyEliza

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3. Entire neighborhoods stand empty in Florida

Terral
Where?
All over the place, Ravi.

Most of my family is in Florida. If the hurricanes of 2004 didn't take out the neighborhood, the real estate crash did. Real estate investors bought into FL housing developments like crazy during the boom. They bought houses and flipped 'em. They bought houses and rented them. And....when the market crashed and they couldn't pay the mortgages anymore, they walked away. Leaving entire neighborhoods empty and unkept. That doesn't count the houses ILLEGALS bought and walked away from when they couldn't pay their mortgage because construction work just came to a dead stop in FL.

Do some research on this....Florida has lead the way in Foreclosures from the VERY beginning. And there seems to be no end in sight for the state.
 

JenyEliza

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Gov. Charlie Crist on Thursday killed the bill that prompted sick-outs, sit-ins, street protests and a flood of opposition throughout the state as Republican lawmakers vowed to try again next year — if not sooner.

Calling it "significantly flawed," Crist decried Senate Bill 6, which would link teacher pay to student test scores and eliminate tenure for all new hires, as both overreaching and too vague.

"We must start over," he said.
Gov. Crist vetoes teacher tenure bill - St. Petersburg Times

Just got back from Fla. and this was all over the news. As a special education teacher whose high school students are generally reading at the fifth grade level, I am relieved that Gov. Crist and others see how flawed this idea is.

Tenure needs to be tweaked. Pay scales may need to be revamped. But tying salary to test scores is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the 4th grade teacher be penalized because the students had a crappy 3rd grade teacher? Why should high school teachers be penalized for 18 year olds who only come to school twice a week? There's got to be a better way.
I'm not in FL so I don't know all the ins and outs of what was proposed and vetoed. I wonder though, what alternatives Crist put forward?

Tenure shouldn't be used as a 'job for life, so now I can ride.'

If as in the case of NCLB, there were no 'proportional increases' in test scores tied to pay raises or whatever is involved in this, I agree with your take; ie., if a 6th grade teacher has a student test at 4.6, when the previous year that student tested at 2.0, that's a huge achievement gain. The measurement must be on gain, not grade level.

One problem we're having here, testing is being done in early to mid-October. Considering the first two weeks are 'reviewing and refreshing' the teacher has only been 'teaching' their students a month or less, depending on grade.

There should also be 'exclusion in results' of children that are not capable of academic gains, due to physical or IQ reasons, but nonetheless through 'inclusion' are in age level classrooms.
Georgia does the NCLB testing (called CRCT) in April. We are currently in the middle of CRCT testing. It was all this week, and most of next week.

"Special" children have exemptions or accomodations made for testing, so as not to skew the results.

NCLB has been a savior for me and my family. We got out of an especially bad school district and into a much better one on the NCLB program. I will be forever and eternally grateful for this opportunity!
 

Annie

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Gov. Crist vetoes teacher tenure bill - St. Petersburg Times

Just got back from Fla. and this was all over the news. As a special education teacher whose high school students are generally reading at the fifth grade level, I am relieved that Gov. Crist and others see how flawed this idea is.

Tenure needs to be tweaked. Pay scales may need to be revamped. But tying salary to test scores is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the 4th grade teacher be penalized because the students had a crappy 3rd grade teacher? Why should high school teachers be penalized for 18 year olds who only come to school twice a week? There's got to be a better way.
I'm not in FL so I don't know all the ins and outs of what was proposed and vetoed. I wonder though, what alternatives Crist put forward?

Tenure shouldn't be used as a 'job for life, so now I can ride.'

If as in the case of NCLB, there were no 'proportional increases' in test scores tied to pay raises or whatever is involved in this, I agree with your take; ie., if a 6th grade teacher has a student test at 4.6, when the previous year that student tested at 2.0, that's a huge achievement gain. The measurement must be on gain, not grade level.

One problem we're having here, testing is being done in early to mid-October. Considering the first two weeks are 'reviewing and refreshing' the teacher has only been 'teaching' their students a month or less, depending on grade.

There should also be 'exclusion in results' of children that are not capable of academic gains, due to physical or IQ reasons, but nonetheless through 'inclusion' are in age level classrooms.
Georgia does the NCLB testing (called CRCT) in April. We are currently in the middle of CRCT testing. It was all this week, and most of next week.

"Special" children have exemptions or accomodations made for testing, so as not to skew the results.

NCLB has been a savior for me and my family. We got out of an especially bad school district and into a much better one on the NCLB program. I will be forever and eternally grateful for this opportunity!
I'm glad for any real improvements in your schools. From all I've read about NCLB, there were no exclusions made for under grade level performance, regardless of abilities of the child. Thus special ed classes, as well as inclusion classes, are counted just as a regular ed class. That is wrong.
 

Toro

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Tenure needs to be tweaked. Pay scales may need to be revamped. But tying salary to test scores is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the 4th grade teacher be penalized because the students had a crappy 3rd grade teacher? Why should high school teachers be penalized for 18 year olds who only come to school twice a week? There's got to be a better way.
Here in Florida, they have a state-wide standardized test called the FCAT - the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test. Funding is at least partially dependent upon it. I have no problem with the concept of such a test but it definitely has changed the behavior of schools as schools started structuring around the test to prepare for the FCAT. Schools dropped or limited more peripheral subjects such as gym, art and music. My son does not get recess, which is bizarre to me given that young boys have to run around to burn off energy, not chain them to a desk 6 hours a day. Schools were adding weeks to the school year. Some schools were starting the first Monday in August. It got so bad that parents started complaining en masse and the legislature changed the law, prohibiting schools from opening until the third week in August. The FCAT is not particularly popular amongst parents. I'm not a fan of teachers unions and I don't have a problem changing incentives but they often have perverse effects and unintended consequences. I have little doubt that this bill would have similar effects and consequences as well.
 

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It astounds me how many people think that the public education system is just like any other private business...any factory producing widgets...and that the same rules and principles can be applied to achieve success.

It simply isn't so. Public education is a horse of an entirely different color. And by coming in and assuming that it will function like a private industry is asking for disaster.

Real changes do need to be made. Some of those changes definitely need to be in the way teachers are treated, paid, and in what is expected of them...

But the changes most of you are suggesting...made the way you are suggesting them, without first changing the fact that it is a public school system you are dealing with...would bring only more spectacular disaster.
 
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Crist at his worst. A stupid decision on his part
Hardly.

I agree with Crist's veto, but not for the reasons he stated.

To believe that teachers should be held to strict performance standards, one must also believe that the home environment and the parents have little or no role or say in the outcome of kids learning.

The teacher is the sole arbiter of whether the kid learns or not?

A Republican who believes that isn't conservative, IMO. The home environment and the parents have just as much if not more influence on the kid's educational outcome than the teachers do.

This is another example of trying to fix a problem using the wrong tool. Everywhere else this has been passed, it's led to what the education industry calls "scrubbing the grades" which is, turning F's and D's into C's and B's. It does a gross disservice to the child and is also completely self defeating. Exactly like "social promotion" was.

I'm no big fan of the public education system, but driving a finish nail with a jackhammer is always stupid no matter the project.

Crist's move was correct.
 

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