Gradeschool Teacher Shoots Herself In The Leg

[RoshawnMarkwees]

On the subject of armed teachers, rather than carrying a personal weapon, which can be cumbersome and uncomfortable, especially in summer, the notion occurs to me of a secure cabinet fastened to a wall in every classroom's closet and containing a loaded 12 ga. pump shotgun. This cabinet will be secured with a strong lock which only selected, willing, well-trained and certified-as-capable teachers would be provided a necklaced key for.

If a shooter entered such a school, rather than having dozens of teachers cowering helplessly in their classrooms along with their students it would be a matter of time before one (or more) of those teachers would be able to take the shooter out.

Feasible idea? Or not?

Where I live, the students would raid that cabinet before the teacher could get to it.
Just make all teachers take police classes and firearms classes in order to attain their teaching certificates and then arm them in full SWAT gear..

 

[Flopper]

On the subject of armed teachers, rather than carrying a personal weapon, which can be cumbersome and uncomfortable, especially in summer, the notion occurs to me of a secure cabinet fastened to a wall in every classroom's closet and containing a loaded 12 ga. pump shotgun. This cabinet will be secured with a strong lock which only selected, willing, well-trained and certified-as-capable teachers would be provided a necklaced key for.

If a shooter entered such a school, rather than having dozens of teachers cowering helplessly in their classrooms along with their students it would be a matter of time before one (or more) of those teachers would be able to take the shooter out.

Feasible idea? Or not?

I see several major problems. First, the spread of a 12 gauge shotgun in a school can cause a lot of untended damage. Second, the fear of a student getting hold of the gun would be enough for educators to turn thumbs down. In most schools in the country, that shotgun would remained locked in the cabinet for decades without use, Teachers would change, keys would be lost and stolen, left at home, and locked in the desk drawers, etc...

Most of the violence in schools is certainly not a deranged killer running down halls killing students on sight. Vandalism, sexual abuse, bullying, and fighting are the most common forms of school violence and any one of these can rapidly turn into a blood bath if one or more students are armed. Having a locked shotgun in a classroom cabinet is not the solution for school violence.

 

[MikeK]

On the subject of armed teachers, rather than carrying a personal weapon, which can be cumbersome and uncomfortable, especially in summer, the notion occurs to me of a secure cabinet fastened to a wall in every classroom's closet and containing a loaded 12 ga. pump shotgun. This cabinet will be secured with a strong lock which only selected, willing, well-trained and certified-as-capable teachers would be provided a necklaced key for.

If a shooter entered such a school, rather than having dozens of teachers cowering helplessly in their classrooms along with their students it would be a matter of time before one (or more) of those teachers would be able to take the shooter out.

Feasible idea? Or not?

I see several major problems. First, the spread of a 12 gauge shotgun in a school can cause a lot of untended damage. Second, the fear of a student getting hold of the gun would be enough for educators to turn thumbs down. In most schools in the country, that shotgun would remained locked in the cabinet for decades without use, Teachers would change, keys would be lost and stolen, left at home, and locked in the desk drawers, etc...

Most of the violence in schools is certainly not a deranged killer running down halls killing students on sight. Vandalism, sexual abuse, bullying, and fighting are the most common forms of school violence and any one of these can rapidly turn into a blood bath if one or more students are armed. Having a locked shotgun in a classroom cabinet is not the solution for school violence.

Those are all extremely valid reasons for rejecting the idea of defensive shotguns, each of which must be weighed against the alternative prospect of being helpless in the event of another Columbine event.

Re: your concern about the spread factor of shotguns, which is very real in the example of an open-choke gun shooting #4 shot, or smaller. But the spread from a full-choke gun shooting #00 buckshot is minimal.

And your concern about the vandalism, sexual abuse, bullying, and fighting is valid. However, please consider this widespread absence of discipline in high schools, which I am not personally aware of, as the primary underlying cause of every other problem related to contemporary American high-schools.

I attended Catholic school (St. Francis Xavier, Brooklyn, NY) in the 40s and 50s, and compared to the mayhem you've described in contemporary schools, which I have no doubt exists, seems like another world to me. Because the most outstanding difference in the school I attended was the rigid discipline -- reinforced in large measure by the threat and reality of corporal punishment.

We wore uniforms. Talking was not permitted in corridors -- where we walked quietly in twos. Boys and girls were separated except in the recreational yard. Those (and a lot more) are the negatives. The positive is the fact that St. Francis always ranked among the highest in NY State Scholastic ratings and graduates were almost automatically accepted in the best universities and colleges in America.

So unless the mayhem you've described in contemporary high schools can be eliminated I must agree with your rejection of my shotgun suggestion. It couldn't work under those conditions.

Without rigid discipline schools are a waste of time.

 

[Flopper]

On the subject of armed teachers, rather than carrying a personal weapon, which can be cumbersome and uncomfortable, especially in summer, the notion occurs to me of a secure cabinet fastened to a wall in every classroom's closet and containing a loaded 12 ga. pump shotgun. This cabinet will be secured with a strong lock which only selected, willing, well-trained and certified-as-capable teachers would be provided a necklaced key for.

If a shooter entered such a school, rather than having dozens of teachers cowering helplessly in their classrooms along with their students it would be a matter of time before one (or more) of those teachers would be able to take the shooter out.

Feasible idea? Or not?

I see several major problems. First, the spread of a 12 gauge shotgun in a school can cause a lot of untended damage. Second, the fear of a student getting hold of the gun would be enough for educators to turn thumbs down. In most schools in the country, that shotgun would remained locked in the cabinet for decades without use, Teachers would change, keys would be lost and stolen, left at home, and locked in the desk drawers, etc...

Most of the violence in schools is certainly not a deranged killer running down halls killing students on sight. Vandalism, sexual abuse, bullying, and fighting are the most common forms of school violence and any one of these can rapidly turn into a blood bath if one or more students are armed. Having a locked shotgun in a classroom cabinet is not the solution for school violence.

Those are all extremely valid reasons for rejecting the idea of defensive shotguns, each of which must be weighed against the alternative prospect of being helpless in the event of another Columbine event.

Re: your concern about the spread factor of shotguns, which is very real in the example of an open-choke gun shooting #4 shot, or smaller. But the spread from a full-choke gun shooting #00 buckshot is minimal.

And your concern about the vandalism, sexual abuse, bullying, and fighting is valid. However, please consider this widespread absence of discipline in high schools, which I am not personally aware of, as the primary underlying cause of every other problem related to contemporary American high-schools.

I attended Catholic school (St. Francis Xavier, Brooklyn, NY) in the 40s and 50s, and compared to the mayhem you've described in contemporary schools, which I have no doubt exists, seems like another world to me. Because the most outstanding difference in the school I attended was the rigid discipline -- reinforced in large measure by the threat and reality of corporal punishment.

We wore uniforms. Talking was not permitted in corridors -- where we walked quietly in twos. Boys and girls were separated except in the recreational yard. Those (and a lot more) are the negatives. The positive is the fact that St. Francis always ranked among the highest in NY State Scholastic ratings and graduates were almost automatically accepted in the best universities and colleges in America.

So unless the mayhem you've described in contemporary high schools can be eliminated I must agree with your rejection of my shotgun suggestion. It couldn't work under those conditions.

Without rigid discipline schools are a waste of time.

I fully understand your point on discipline. It is sadly lacking in most public schools. Attending private school is a privilege. Attending public school is a legal requirement.

I don't believe there is any way of defending against a Columbine or Sandy Hook without introducing even greater dangers in the schools. Columbine was 15 years ago. 13 years later we had the Sandy Hook massacre. Such shoots are very rare. There are over 100,000 schools in the country and at least 2.5 million classrooms. Putting guns in those classrooms would introduce a potential danger to students.

If you put a shotgun in the classroom, it would present an invitation to criminals and a challenge to students. Remember schools only operate about 190 days a year, however those guns would be in the schools nights, weekends, and summer with very little protection. Most schools, particularly older schools have very limited burglar alarm system. Schools districts are most concerned with the safety of students not furniture and equipment.

If the school district put guns in the schools, then any misuse of those guns would fall squarely on the shoulders of the district. Having worked in public schools, I think it's very unlike that districts would do this. On the other hand, if a teacher brings their own gun into the school legally and there's an incident, then the responsibility would fall squarely on the teacher and not the school system.

 

[bodecea]

My brother shot himself in the leg at age 17, while playing Wyatt Earp out in the woods back in 1958. He almost had it down pat: draw, cock, fire. But then he had a slight distraction, and he: cock, fire, draw. Luckily it was only a 22. he hardly limps today.....

We had a petty officer in my first command who did that...unfortunately it was NOT just a 22, it was a .357....went right thru his calf lengthwise....so much damage he lost the leg. I had to do the admin discharge board....it was sad.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

My brother shot himself in the leg at age 17, while playing Wyatt Earp out in the woods back in 1958. He almost had it down pat: draw, cock, fire. But then he had a slight distraction, and he: cock, fire, draw. Luckily it was only a 22. he hardly limps today.....

We had a petty officer in my first command who did that...unfortunately it was NOT just a 22, it was a .357....went right thru his calf lengthwise....so much damage he lost the leg. I had to do the admin discharge board....it was sad.

As for school violence, I hate the idea of armed teachers. Hate it.

Let's put a police officer at every school and only have one entrance.

As for bringing discipline back to the public schools, good luck with that.

 

[bodecea]

require a competency test to obtain a driver license but no such requirement (in most places) to own and/or carry a firearm.

Because, as many have pointed out, owning guns is a right...driving a car is not...much like the "literacy" tests in the democrat controlled south that they used to keep their former slaves from voting...that was deemed an infringement of the right to vote....competency tests and other government controlled requirements can too easily be used to keep people from excercising their right to keep and bear arms....

How do you get more people educated and handling them safely...education in the public schools at all levels would be a start....but the anti gunners block those efforts when they are tried....so...if they won't let us teach firearm safety to children...who is really more culpable when children accidentally shoot each other or themselves with an unattended firearm...?

Absolutely! We should start by taking all 9 year old girls to the rifle range and teach them how to fire an Uzi.....

Ouch.

 

[bodecea]

On the subject of armed teachers, rather than carrying a personal weapon, which can be cumbersome and uncomfortable, especially in summer, the notion occurs to me of a secure cabinet fastened to a wall in every classroom's closet and containing a loaded 12 ga. pump shotgun. This cabinet will be secured with a strong lock which only selected, willing, well-trained and certified-as-capable teachers would be provided a necklaced key for.

If a shooter entered such a school, rather than having dozens of teachers cowering helplessly in their classrooms along with their students it would be a matter of time before one (or more) of those teachers would be able to take the shooter out.

Feasible idea? Or not?

Would they have the key during parent conferences? That could be fun.

 

[Flopper]

My brother shot himself in the leg at age 17, while playing Wyatt Earp out in the woods back in 1958. He almost had it down pat: draw, cock, fire. But then he had a slight distraction, and he: cock, fire, draw. Luckily it was only a 22. he hardly limps today.....

We had a petty officer in my first command who did that...unfortunately it was NOT just a 22, it was a .357....went right thru his calf lengthwise....so much damage he lost the leg. I had to do the admin discharge board....it was sad.

Few people including gun owners really understands how much damage a bullet can do to the human body. My neighbors son got hold of a shotgun and accidentally discarded it into his sister midsection. It was horrible. It's not like TV.

 

[bodecea]

My brother shot himself in the leg at age 17, while playing Wyatt Earp out in the woods back in 1958. He almost had it down pat: draw, cock, fire. But then he had a slight distraction, and he: cock, fire, draw. Luckily it was only a 22. he hardly limps today.....

We had a petty officer in my first command who did that...unfortunately it was NOT just a 22, it was a .357....went right thru his calf lengthwise....so much damage he lost the leg. I had to do the admin discharge board....it was sad.

Few people including gun owners really understands how much damage a bullet can do to the human body. My neighbors son got hold of a shotgun and accidentally discarded it into his sister midsection. It was horrible. It's not like TV.

OMG....I take it she didn't survive.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

How do you get more people educated and handling them safely...education in the public schools at all levels would be a start....but the anti gunners block those efforts when they are tried....so...if they won't let us teach firearm safety to children...who is really more culpable when children accidentally shoot each other or themselves with an unattended firearm...?

BillC,

If you'd care to read a bit about the way things were not so long ago in America http://pronematch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/The-Art-of-Shooting.pdf
you'll find that marksmanship was indeed a part of the recreational curriculum in many grade and high schools across America as recent as the late 40s and early 50s in my own recollection. And while I didn't participate (didn't need to) I do recall that PS10 (Public School #10) in Brooklyn, NY, did have a program in which boys over 12 were trained in marksmanship with .22s and pellet guns at a range on Long Island and classes on proper handling of rifles were conducted right in the school gym.

I don't recall when that program was discontinued and when the anti-gun mentality took hold in America, but I believe increased population density and a rising crime rate were the cause.

 

[Flopper]

My brother shot himself in the leg at age 17, while playing Wyatt Earp out in the woods back in 1958. He almost had it down pat: draw, cock, fire. But then he had a slight distraction, and he: cock, fire, draw. Luckily it was only a 22. he hardly limps today.....

We had a petty officer in my first command who did that...unfortunately it was NOT just a 22, it was a .357....went right thru his calf lengthwise....so much damage he lost the leg. I had to do the admin discharge board....it was sad.

Few people including gun owners really understands how much damage a bullet can do to the human body. My neighbors son got hold of a shotgun and accidentally discarded it into his sister midsection. It was horrible. It's not like TV.

OMG....I take it she didn't survive.

No. Very few people survive a shotgun blast to to the midsection at close range.