"God" is a tyrant.

[miketx]

God in His immense love for mankind created humans to be with Him as part of a most loving heavenly family with the angels. There is nothing more beautiful for the Christian than this. To go against this is to go against all we were created for. It is the human and angelic condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. One suffers spiritual death, is in ruins and of no value or worth. Man is better off had he not been born. Hence, the value of salvation is greater than the sum of our lives. God is a righteous God and must punish sin. Evil would burn in the hearts of man otherwise. Due to man's iniquities, man was unable to be with God and was to be punished. God, in His great plans and love for mankind sent His only begotten Son as Christ, the Redeemer, so that the souls of the believers can be salvaged and that we may not suffer the human condition of being without Him.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God has proven His love for mankind through His Son Jesus Christ.

So, to be clear, is it your contention that the "soul" is not eternal?

The soul is both eternal and immortal.

That's the theory with alternate universes now.

 

[Meriweather]

So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

The Bible is a collection of books and stories where each author addresses a specific audience of his time. Each story must be taken in its historical and cultural context. Not everything is about "self."

The Bible (The Book of Romans I believe) tells us this: Those who do not believe in God will be judged by their own hearts. As you know, our own hearts can often be our worst critic and quite unforgiving. Those of us who believe in the love, mercy, and justice of God prefer His judgement.

 

[Czernobog]

God in His immense love for mankind created humans to be with Him as part of a most loving heavenly family with the angels. There is nothing more beautiful for the Christian than this. To go against this is to go against all we were created for. It is the human and angelic condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. One suffers spiritual death, is in ruins and of no value or worth. Man is better off had he not been born. Hence, the value of salvation is greater than the sum of our lives. God is a righteous God and must punish sin. Evil would burn in the hearts of man otherwise. Due to man's iniquities, man was unable to be with God and was to be punished. God, in His great plans and love for mankind sent His only begotten Son as Christ, the Redeemer, so that the souls of the believers can be salvaged and that we may not suffer the human condition of being without Him.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God has proven His love for mankind through His Son Jesus Christ.

So, to be clear, is it your contention that the "soul" is not eternal?

The soul is both eternal and immortal.

Okay. So, to recap.

This all-knowing, al-powerful God created a race, that he knew would do exactly what he told then not to do (after all, he was all knowing), then told them not to do something, knowing full well they would do it anyway, then set up an eternal, unending punishment of pain and suffering for doing exactly what he knew that they would do, what he, being all-knowing, obviously created them to do in the first place (after all, if he knew they were going to do what they did, he could have chosen to create them without the included flaw - and we won't even get into the irrationality of an all-powerful God intentionally creating a flawed creation), and then, after sentencing them for doing what he created them to do, he creates the means, and promises to save them from the torment that he inflicted on them for being what he created them to be, in the first place.

Did I miss anything?

And you wonder why I call God, as presented by Christianity, a tyrant?

 

[percysunshine]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

How is this god forcing you to convert to Christianity?

It's the whole fear of consequences thing. The whole reason for giving such detailed descriptions of all of the horrors that await those who "reject God", and "
choose a life of sin" is to make the consequences of doing so frightening that one chooses to obey. When the consequences of disobedience is so severe, and unpleasant that it terrifies one into obedience, then obedience is no longer really a choice, is it?

You are a human being who is free to make choices. Lots of choices.

Sure. I'll give you a choice:

Choice A: Open door #1. when you do, you wife is going to be cut into pieces in front of you. You child is going to be anally raped, and ground up, and fed to the remander of your family, while you are forced to watch them eat, and your dog is going to be killed, skinned, fried, and force fed to you.

Choice B: Open Door # 2. When you do, you eill be given $1 Billion dollars, paid any way you will, tax free, a free home anywhere in the world that you would like to live, a vehicle of your choice, with free petrol for the rest of your life, and your children's compete education will be paid for, up through, and including any graduate program they may wish to persue.

I am going to lay out, precisely the two options that are available to you, and then ask you to choose. Now, you are a human being. You have a "choice", right?

Presumably, you can give one example when that has ever been a choice by anyone in all of human history.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay. So, to recap.

This all-knowing, al-powerful God created a race, that he knew would do exactly what he told then not to do (after all, he was all knowing), then told them not to do something, knowing full well they would do it anyway, then set up an eternal, unending punishment of pain and suffering for doing exactly what he knew that they would do, what he, being all-knowing, obviously created them to do in the first place (after all, if he knew they were going to do what they did, he could have chosen to create them without the included flaw - and we won't even get into the irrationality of an all-powerful God intentionally creating a flawed creation), and then, after sentencing them for doing what he created them to do, he creates the means, and promises to save them from the torment that he inflicted on them for being what he created them to be, in the first place.

Did I miss anything?

And you wander why I call God, as presented by Christianity, a tyrant?

You missed the point of the entire story, so no, I don't wonder why you consider God a tyrant. If a person doesn't want to bother with God (or anything else for that matter) they build a straw man they claim is God--and then don't bother with it. I understand why you don't bother with your straw man; I wouldn't bother with it either.

 

[expat_panama]

...the Bible with references of the eternal torture...

Name two.

OK, name one.

Ah, you're saying you're mistaken and you appologize for wasting our time?

 

[there4eyeM]

'God' may be one thing, and what one takes the God of the bible to be might be quite another. The bible gives us an image of God, as all words transmitted orally or written give a representation of something.

 

[expat_panama]

...set up an eternal, unending punishment of pain and suffering for doing exactly what he...

Some groups insist that the Creator is not a He, but rather a She..
.

--and their members are growing.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No, it's not. The Bible is quite visceral, particularly in Revelations, in it's descriptions of the suffering of the damned. Jesus was also quite vivid in his description of Hell in his story of the suffering of the Rich man in Hell.

You misunderstand the Bible. Jesus is not threatening to send you to Hell, he's telling you that if you don't accept God, God will not accept you. "Hell" is living in the absence of God, and there's no protection from evil. BTW, it's "Revelation", not Revelation(s).

Because, frankly, I am separates from that God now, and I do not feel terribly tortured.

You haven't left Earth yet either.

sounds like the real world right here

face it you can pray all you want but you are not protected from evil

I'm not talking about life on Earth.

well that's the only life there is based on the evidence

 

[Czernobog]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

See Job 40 for God's response.

By all means, let's do that. Basically, the response is that of a Tyrant: "Who do you think you are to question me?!?!'

While we're at it, let's look at Job, period. Here we have God destroying a man, for no other reason than he was manipulated into it over a bet - a bet - with Satan (or Lucifer, if that is less offensive to our Jewish residents). Now, The Theists are going to quickly point out that God replaced everything he took, but so what. First, replaced? Really? Tell that to a parent. Ask a parent who has lost a child if subsequent children replaced the one they lost. Even beyond that, allow me to take away eve3ry single thing you own, destroy your reputation, and destroy your life. Then 6 months later, I'll rebuild it all for you. Did the rebuilding make up for what I did? Anyone who thinks it does, should watch Trading Places.

And we're expected to be,lieve that this is an infinitely wise, generous, and loving God? I think not.

 

[BreezeWood]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

.
the Almighty is not responsible for the christian bible, there is every reason on Earth to believe the ruler of the Everlasting has a vested interest with who may free their Spirit to join them and prosper for as long as chance may allow ... is qualified.

the point is people like AH (hitler) need not apply, they had their chance and it's over for them.

 

[Czernobog]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

How is this god forcing you to convert to Christianity?

It's the whole fear of consequences thing. The whole reason for giving such detailed descriptions of all of the horrors that await those who "reject God", and "
choose a life of sin" is to make the consequences of doing so frightening that one chooses to obey. When the consequences of disobedience is so severe, and unpleasant that it terrifies one into obedience, then obedience is no longer really a choice, is it?

You are a human being who is free to make choices. Lots of choices.

Sure. I'll give you a choice:

Choice A: Open door #1. when you do, you wife is going to be cut into pieces in front of you. You child is going to be anally raped, and ground up, and fed to the remander of your family, while you are forced to watch them eat, and your dog is going to be killed, skinned, fried, and force fed to you.

Choice B: Open Door # 2. When you do, you eill be given $1 Billion dollars, paid any way you will, tax free, a free home anywhere in the world that you would like to live, a vehicle of your choice, with free petrol for the rest of your life, and your children's compete education will be paid for, up through, and including any graduate program they may wish to persue.

I am going to lay out, precisely the two options that are available to you, and then ask you to choose. Now, you are a human being. You have a "choice", right?

Presumably, you can give one example when that has ever been a choice by anyone in all of human history.

You don't understand the concept of analogy, o you? I am not suggesting that anyone has actually forced this choice on anyone, It was a hypothetical. But, I'll tell you what? You want a real life example. Why do you think the vast majority of people do not ki8ll each other? Do you honestly believe it is because we are "morally good", and choose not to; especially considering that the entire premise of Christianity is the exact opposite - that we are all orally corrupt, and disposed to "evil". No, it is because the Law has made the consequences of doing so so unpleasant, and distasteful, that we are actually not left any choice but to not follow our more violent tendencies.

A "choice' in which one alternative carries consequences that are too terrible to consider, let alone be willing to accept, is not really a choice, regardless of how you wish to equivocate.

 

[Meriweather]

By all means, let's do that. Basically, the response is that of a Tyrant: "Who do you think you are to question me?!?!'

While we're at it, let's look at Job, period. Here we have God destroying a man, for no other reason than he was manipulated into it over a bet - a bet - with Satan (or Lucifer, if that is less offensive to our Jewish residents). Now, The Theists are going to quickly point out that God replaced everything he took, but so what. First, replaced? Really? Tell that to a parent. Ask a parent who has lost a child if subsequent children replaced the one they lost. Even beyond that, allow me to take away eve3ry single thing you own, destroy your reputation, and destroy your life. Then 6 months later, I'll rebuild it all for you. Did the rebuilding make up for what I did? Anyone who thinks it does, should watch Trading Places.

And we're expected to be,lieve that this is an infinitely wise, generous, and loving God? I think not.

Are you aware that originally the Book of Job was a play? It's theme was to answer the age old question of why God allows bad things to happen to good people.

 

[Czernobog]

Okay. So, to recap.

This all-knowing, al-powerful God created a race, that he knew would do exactly what he told then not to do (after all, he was all knowing), then told them not to do something, knowing full well they would do it anyway, then set up an eternal, unending punishment of pain and suffering for doing exactly what he knew that they would do, what he, being all-knowing, obviously created them to do in the first place (after all, if he knew they were going to do what they did, he could have chosen to create them without the included flaw - and we won't even get into the irrationality of an all-powerful God intentionally creating a flawed creation), and then, after sentencing them for doing what he created them to do, he creates the means, and promises to save them from the torment that he inflicted on them for being what he created them to be, in the first place.

Did I miss anything?

And you wander why I call God, as presented by Christianity, a tyrant?

You missed the point of the entire story, so no, I don't wonder why you consider God a tyrant. If a person doesn't want to bother with God (or anything else for that matter) they build a straw man they claim is God--and then don't bother with it. I understand why you don't bother with your straw man; I wouldn't bother with it either.

So, which part of my recap did I get wrong? Let's take it point by point. Is God All-Powerful, and All-knowing? Yes, or no?

 

[percysunshine]

How is this god forcing you to convert to Christianity?

It's the whole fear of consequences thing. The whole reason for giving such detailed descriptions of all of the horrors that await those who "reject God", and "
choose a life of sin" is to make the consequences of doing so frightening that one chooses to obey. When the consequences of disobedience is so severe, and unpleasant that it terrifies one into obedience, then obedience is no longer really a choice, is it?

You are a human being who is free to make choices. Lots of choices.

Sure. I'll give you a choice:

Choice A: Open door #1. when you do, you wife is going to be cut into pieces in front of you. You child is going to be anally raped, and ground up, and fed to the remander of your family, while you are forced to watch them eat, and your dog is going to be killed, skinned, fried, and force fed to you.

Choice B: Open Door # 2. When you do, you eill be given $1 Billion dollars, paid any way you will, tax free, a free home anywhere in the world that you would like to live, a vehicle of your choice, with free petrol for the rest of your life, and your children's compete education will be paid for, up through, and including any graduate program they may wish to persue.

I am going to lay out, precisely the two options that are available to you, and then ask you to choose. Now, you are a human being. You have a "choice", right?

Presumably, you can give one example when that has ever been a choice by anyone in all of human history.

You don't understand the concept of analogy, o you? I am not suggesting that anyone has actually forced this choice on anyone, It was a hypothetical. But, I'll tell you what? You want a real life example. Why do you think the vast majority of people do not ki8ll each other? Do you honestly believe it is because we are "morally good", and choose not to; especially considering that the entire premise of Christianity is the exact opposite - that we are all orally corrupt, and disposed to "evil". No, it is because the Law has made the consequences of doing so so unpleasant, and distasteful, that we are actually not left any choice but to not follow our more violent tendencies.

A "choice' in which one alternative carries consequences that are too terrible to consider, let alone be willing to accept, is not really a choice, regardless of how you wish to equivocate.

I think you are projecting alot of stuff that cannot be found by observing what is happening.

 

[emilynghiem]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

Dear Czernobog
Try substituting NATURE or LIFE for "God."
is NATURE a tyrant for its preexistent laws and ways of how the world works?
Is LIFE a tyrant for how we are born, go through stages of growth learning and development, before we die?

now, isn't our relationship with NATURE or LIFE
up to us to decide if we are going to work with it or try to fight against it.

isn't part of the learning curve making peace and learning to work with
laws of the universe, nature and life. And isn't that up to human conscience to deal with?

Except the Bible doesn't talk about living this life in harmony with God. It, repeatedly, talks about the eternal gnashing of teeth, torture, suffering, and damnation, after death that comes to those who do not join in the cult of Jesus worshipers.

You want to make it sound as if Christianity is no different than Zen Buddhism, except we both know that's not true.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Dear Czernobog
1. my understanding of hell and burning in the lake of fire is more like a purging or purgatory process to purify. If you've ever been through a bout of anger, where it burned you up, and all the impure thoughts came out in the open and even out of your mouth, that's the process I'm talking about.
If you look up the stages of Grief and Recovery, "ANGER" is one of the natural phases that humans go through if we are going to get to a better place. The point and purpose is NOT to stay stuck in Anger, nor in hell either. Only the good is eternal, while the evil is "burned away."

Where anger becomes a danger to ourselves, is when we hold on to ILL WILL or UNFORGIVENESS and WON'T LET IT GO.

This is like holding on to a burning ember or hot potato. To grab onto the very thing that will burn us. So of course we are going to get burned, and howl in pain and suffering! They say that unforgiveness is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die -- we only harm ourselves by holding on to toxic negative energy thoughts and fears.

The point of "Christ Jesus" is to understand Justice with Mercy as more powerful than Retributive Justice which comes back to bite us. Love of truth that liberates us is what overcomes fear that cripples us.

2. In Buddhism, this is called KARMA.
We can either pay back bad karma with MORE bad karma which repeats the cycle
and ENTRAPS us in suffering.

or we can do differently and BREAK the cycle of sin or karma
and answer negative with positive to change the situation around.

In Buddhism it is called answering Anger with Compassion.
Correcting Ignorance with Wisdom.
Answering Greed with Generosity and Charity.

Christianity takes this to a more concentrated level by uniting
people collectively in one spirit of Restorative Justice, or Justice and Peace,
by naming it under CHRIST JESUS as a central unifying authority.

Buddhism teaches this individually but doesn't teach it collectively
as Christianity teaches that this will be fulfilled in the future.

So yes these are different, but they still teach the same universal process.
Buddhism focuses on the individual MIND and discipline internally to find INNER PEACE.
Christianity focuses on the RELATIONSHIP between individuals
with each other as neighbors and with humanity collectively as the Kingdom of God
or heavenly peace on earth.

We need both levels inside and out.

Okay. I don't know what "brand" of Christianity you are practicing, but it is not any of the branches of mainstream Christianity. I have worshipped as a Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, and have even studied the charismatic fundamentalist denominations. None of them would ever suggest that they are comparable to Buddhism; particularly when one considers that Buddhism is a Godless religion. It does not recognise a supernatural deity.

So, I don't know what you practice, but it is not Christianity. It sounds more like some personal deistic spiritualism that has incorporated some aspects of Christianity into it.

Well Czernobog I know many people who don't consider Unitarian Universalism to be Christianity
including UU themselves who are not into that at all.

The original UU was intended as a Christian denomination that just rejected the DOGMA
of the Trinity, but of course, the UU believe in Truth Justice and Peace which is the
meaning of the Trinity, so it's inherent. it's the church dogma and conditions rejecting people
over the Trinity that made them reject that, not the meaning of the Trinity itself.

Some people take Universalism so far they lose the focus and center that is
the meaning of Jesus as Justice in Christianity. If you look up the Gospel of Inclusion
by Carlton Pearson, he is one outspoken on the inclusion/universal approach to
Christian teaching of the Bible and God who has been condemned by others
as preaching falsehood and diluting the meaning and misleading people to go astray.

The JW are also condemned or criticized by many for teaching hell as nonexistent
and a corruption of the Bible integrating other cultural mythology in with scripture.

I believe in both universal inclusion and in forming a unified agreement on truth
in Christ or by conscience globally/collectively.

I find there is a right way and a wrong way to reconcile things:
by either compromising and losing critical points or principles (eg by generalizing too loosely
which isn't the same as resolving conflicts or rejecting, or by excluding opposing interpretations
by discredit the source or the group which to me is cheating to justify truth as irrefutable!)
or by reaching a real understanding by working out differences in terms for concepts so that it's more like "translating" between systems or "aligning" parallel terms.

I find if main principles can be "mapped out" between two systems,
then at least people can communicate; then the critical issues can
be resolved, and the other differences that don't matter so much
can be worked out in the process. It's like getting the spirit of the
language down first, making sure we are on the same page,
and then working out the details, the letter of the law afterwards.
But if people approach it the other way, and start nitpicking over
literal terms, this process tends to fall apart.

To me it is an interesting and enriching challenge to find out
how each person maps out their world view from local to global,
from individual to relationships to collective society/humanity.
And then try to "align" the levels that are parallel from one
system to the next. If the basic levels can be aligned, then
the details and words we use will fall into place after that.

It's almost like one of those logic puzzles where you try
to line up the compatible choices and eliminate the conflicts.
As you sort through the variables, the values that are constants
align with the symbols, and then by process of elimination,
by trial and error, you work out the rest where all the values
and symbols are consistent.

With religions, the terms are like the symbols or variables
and the meanings people assign are the values. So just
like a math problem, people going through a proof have to
agree what to call the variable and what values they stand
for; and not assign conflicting values to the symbols.
(So with religion if people are using God to mean something
universally good, and another person associates God with
something tyrannical false and bad, that proof is going to
fail because people aren't agreeing what the symbols stand for.)

 

[Meriweather]

So, which part of my recap did I get wrong? Let's take it point by point. Is God All-Powerful, and All-knowing? Yes, or no?

I do essay questions, not True or False.

God is the most powerful. The Bible tells us God knows His own plans, beginning to end. Next, the definition of 'omniscient' is the ability to know something as soon as it is knowable. Does God know now what I'll have for lunch a year from now next Wednesday? The Bible doesn't discuss that detail, so people have differing opinions on that. What we do know is that as soon as it is knowable, God does know it.

 

[RWNJ]

All he is saying is that if you reject him, you will live in the absence of him. He doesn't exist to serve you but he will accept you if you accept him. It appears that you don't, which is your choice.

No, it's not. The Bible is quite visceral, particularly in Revelations, in it's descriptions of the suffering of the damned. Jesus was also quite vivid in his description of Hell in his story of the suffering of the Rich man in Hell. You are either ignorant of what the Bible says, of you are trying to understate the case, now that it is being called out. Because, frankly, I am separated from that God now, and I do not feel terribly tortured. So, if that is all the Bible is referring to, then it greatly overstated it's case.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

One thing you fail to realize. God gave us a choice. You are free to reject Him. You are also free to suffer the consequences. Besides, who would choose eternal torment and separation from God, over an eternity in paradise. You are a sinner. God is not sending you to Hell. You are sending yourself because of your sinful pride. That's a fact. God gave us a choice, and your reward or punishment is the result of this choice. Nothing more.

 

[Vastator]

So, which part of my recap did I get wrong? Let's take it point by point. Is God All-Powerful, and All-knowing? Yes, or no?

I do essay questions, not True or False.

God is the most powerful. The Bible tells us God knows His own plans, beginning to end. Next, the definition of 'omniscient' is the ability to know something as soon as it is knowable. Does God know now what I'll have for lunch a year from now next Wednesday? The Bible doesn't discuss that detail, so people have differing opinions on that. What we do know is that as soon as it is knowable, God does know it.

Gotta have room to spin huh...?

 

[Meriweather]

Gotta have room to spin huh...?

Ever notice when you stop spinning it seems as if everything is still spinning? I am advocating that the spin stops. Give it a moment and you may realize it.