Forgiveness

[Sky Dancer]

Who am I to feel sorry for her? Funny that sky. Does pitty work better for you since she is pathetic?

And when she posts with her big heart sky, do you see me laughing at her? No i don't think you do.

Her posting is quite the reflection of herself and of her value as a person. Which is why i feel sorry for her.

Well, I'm not joining the TM pile on.

No one is asking you to sky.

Good.

Words I plan to banish from my vocabulary are "pity" and "pathetic".

 

[masquerade]

As regards this topic, I've decided I will no longer comment on my personal forgiveness process. When I've worked it through, I'll come back and tell you all about it.

And this is how most of your threads end.

In my opinion, Si Modo hit the nail on the head with several of her posts within the thread. From my view point, you do seem to be playing the victim Sky. When one does that, there is no healing.

There is so much I could write, so much I want to add but you seem to reject just about everything folks are posting. Forgiveness is an important issue in my Life, one I have been working with for some time now. It started when I was hurt by someone I thought cared about me. Playing the victim at the time, I learned that each one of us creates our own experience with the thoughts we have and the words we use. We are each responsible for what happens in our Lives. Throwing the blame on others is the surest way to stay in a problem. He did this to me ... he did that to me. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe you allowed this hurt to happen?

Forgiveness means giving up, letting go. It has nothing to do with condoning behavior. It means just letting the whole thing go. You don't need to over-analyze or know how to forgive, you just need to be willing to forgive. The Universe will take care of the how ... if you have faith in the Creator.

Alright, I going to stop there. I could go on, but I'm not going to.
Why you might ask?
Because you're most likely going to come back and post something like .... "this won't work in my situation."

 

[Sky Dancer]

Thanks for your post. You're quite right that forgiving involves seeing the human behind the action, and forgiving the human being, not condoning the behavior.

I am willing to forgive. I am unwilling to hold onto the feelings of hurt, and enmity. There is great sadness here too. The situation in which this event arose is complicted and involved a lot of people, not just my wife and myself. I know that I did not behave all that well in the situation either. What happened triggered past undealtwith child abuse. I've spent most of my time dealing with that part of it. My reaction to his violence.

I've moved forward on it a great deal already. For example, I heard that his wife is sick, and that the father of her children died, and she now has custody of all of them. I don't feel any kind of pleasure in knowing they are suffering now.

 

[masquerade]

No, I've studied their methods. I'm currently taking a class with Eugene Gendlin on dream analysis.

How I worked with the dream of the baseball bat was to tell the dream from the perspective of the subject being hit with the bat, the subject doing the hitting and the bat itself.

....

Yet, all we saw was your disturbance about not being able to kill the poster.

If you've since done that, good for you.

How did it feel being beating repeatedly with a baseball bat? Just curious.

.... The member who "starred" in the dream, represented a part of myself I have trouble with.

....

That holier than thou part?

Yes, the critical, holier than thou part of myself, that I am battling to subdue. The part of me that takes any nasty thing someone says about me to heart and turns it against me.

The part of me that beats up on myself.

Okay, I lied. I'm posting again.

The worst thing we can do to ourselves is criticize ourselves!!!

Let that sink in for a moment.

Okay, so stop doing it. That is step one.

Secondly ... don't take anything personally. Ever. What others say and do is NOT because of you. It is merely a projection of their thoughts and dreams and fears and worries. Nothing more.

 

[masquerade]

What is it you're trying to "teach" her?

That if she criticises someone's post everyone will jump on her for it?

If you addressed her words, instead of her character she might learn something about posting. All she's learning from you folks is that she's the board scapegoat. She gives some people an excuse to be abusive.

I have no wish to teach her anything. Her hack shit is amusing to mock.

I do address her words.... i mock them and laugh at them. It has nothing to do with her as a person. I feel sorry for her as a person.

Who are YOU to feel sorry for her or anyone here as a PERSON? What I know about her is that she has big heart and poor posting skills.

Her posting is no reflection on her value as a person, a human being.

She's ganged up on continuously.

Oh hell yes it is.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I have no wish to teach her anything. Her hack shit is amusing to mock.

I do address her words.... i mock them and laugh at them. It has nothing to do with her as a person. I feel sorry for her as a person.

Who are YOU to feel sorry for her or anyone here as a PERSON? What I know about her is that she has big heart and poor posting skills.

Her posting is no reflection on her value as a person, a human being.

She's ganged up on continuously.

Oh hell yes it is.

I see. You think she's a bad person because of her posts? She deserves to be verbally beat up by a gang of posters every day? Who is it playing judge, jury and executioner?

Am I a "bad person" if I fire off an angry post in response to some insult?

You just dished out a ton of advice about forgiving. Can you forgive TM?

Are any of us in position to judge each other as people? I don't think so. We only know posts. We don't know what the person is going through in their life now, their history, their real name, where they live, etc. We don't see their faces, where they post from or anything like that. We make suppositions, and often they aren't accurate.

 

[Si modo]

Who are YOU to feel sorry for her or anyone here as a PERSON? What I know about her is that she has big heart and poor posting skills.

Her posting is no reflection on her value as a person, a human being.

She's ganged up on continuously.

Oh hell yes it is.

I see. You think she's a bad person because of her posts? She deserves to be verbally beat up by a gang of posters every day? Who is it playing judge, jury and executioner?

Am I a "bad person" if I fire off an angry post in response to some insult?

You just dished out a ton of advice about forgiving. Can you forgive TM?

Do you believe posters feel hurt by what TM posts? Just a suspicion, but I doubt that is the case for most, if not all, posters who engage her.

I have never felt nor do I feel any hurt by anything TM posts. Even the idea of that makes me chuckle. Thus, I would have no reason to forgive her.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The story of Adam and Eve is the classic example of what happens when human beings don’t forgive themselves. It teaches that we were expelled from the Garden of Eden because of our innate sinfulness, that we are outcasts whose earthly task is to redeem ourselves—just like the primordial couple. But imagine how different our lives might be if, after breaking the rules, Adam and Eve had reflected, “Ah well, humans will be humans!” or “Seeking knowledge is normal,” or “Eve was in one of her moods.”

If only they’d forgiven themselves, they could have returned to paradise. Instead, believing they were unworthy and shamed before God, they thought their only choice was exile.

Every day I ask myself, “What is unforgiven? What am I not accepting?”

 

[masquerade]

Who are YOU to feel sorry for her or anyone here as a PERSON? What I know about her is that she has big heart and poor posting skills.

Her posting is no reflection on her value as a person, a human being.

She's ganged up on continuously.

Oh hell yes it is.

I see. You think she's a bad person because of her posts? She deserves to be verbally beat up by a gang of posters every day? Who is it playing judge, jury and executioner?

Am I a "bad person" if I fire off an angry post in response to some insult?

You just dished out a ton of advice about forgiving. Can you forgive TM?

One question at a time Ms. Editor.

Do I think she's a bad person because of her posts? Maybe. I dunno for sure because I don't know her personally. I do think she's a hate-filled, irrational, knee-jerk reaction poster who I've had on ignore since shortly after arriving here. My Life has been much better because of it.

Does she deserve to be verbally beat up by a gang of posters every day? Only she alone can decide what she deserves. But, what she gives out, she gets back. So maybe she could think about that.

Who is it playing judge, jury and executioner? The Grim Reaper?

Are you a "bad person" if you fire off an angry post in response to some insult? No. But let's be honest here .... TM usually throws the first insult. I only know this from quoted posts ... keeping in mind I have her on ignore.

Can I forgive TM? Sure!
I forgive TM for being a hate-filled USMB poster.
I forgive TM for insulting many because of differing views.
I forgive TM for being a partisan hack.

Doesn't mean I'm going to take her off ignore or repsond to her. I tend to stay away from toxic individuals.

 

[BluePhantom]

I see. You think she's a bad person because of her posts? She deserves to be verbally beat up by a gang of posters every day? Who is it playing judge, jury and executioner?

Am I a "bad person" if I fire off an angry post in response to some insult?

You just dished out a ton of advice about forgiving. Can you forgive TM?

Are any of us in position to judge each other as people? I don't think so. We only know posts. We don't know what the person is going through in their life now, their history, their real name, where they live, etc.

Sky, if I might psychoanalyze you for a moment. I haven't been around for long so I am still learning who likes who and who hates who and all that so I could be completely wrong here, but it seems to me that you have a tendency to take what people post very personally, both in regards to what they say about you and about others. TM for example....I will speak for myself but I don't think TM is a "bad person." I don't know her so I make no judgement, nor is it my place to make a judgement regarding her value as a human being. Now, I do think she's a flaming idiot and I have no problem telling her so but that doesn't mean that I dismiss her intrinsic human value.

Just an observation but I look at this thread and I see you toss something out there and there's been plenty of people who have been willing to offer you "what has worked for them"...well that's a gesture of caring. I notice you seem to focus a lot more on what you perceive to be insults upon your character rather than the positive idea that people have been willing to offer you some support and suggestions. My guess is that if you were abused as a child (which I think everyone would have total empathy for) you may be projecting that to other posters by viewing some their comments as attacks.

Just an observation. I may be wrong

 

[Si modo]

The story of Adam and Eve is the classic example of what happens when human beings don’t forgive themselves. It teaches that we were expelled from the Garden of Eden because of our innate sinfulness, that we are outcasts whose earthly task is to redeem ourselves—just like the primordial couple. But imagine how different our lives might be if, after breaking the rules, Adam and Eve had reflected, “Ah well, humans will be humans!” or “Seeking knowledge is normal,” or “Eve was in one of her moods.”

If only they’d forgiven themselves, they could have returned to paradise. Instead, believing they were unworthy and shamed before God, they thought their only choice was exile.

Every day I ask myself, “What is unforgiven? What am I not accepting?”

Only you can answer that. What I would tell myself is that I am not accepting my freedom to love myself and my freedom to feel happy most of the time.

It's nothing but a state of mind and certainly not the boogie man.

Sky, I understand that you have experienced some great hurt in your life. So have I. I doubt you could imagine them, either. But, I am thankful for the greatest of those hurts. It knocked me on my ass and I was afraid I would never recover from that hurt.

Then some wise folks told me how to move on. Without that great hurt, I would never have experienced that wisdom from others.

Some of what has been said to you in this thread has obviously touched you - in not so good of a manner. I hope somehow you find a way to see the wisdom of the experiences of others. I hope something helps you to find what you need to find.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I see. You think she's a bad person because of her posts? She deserves to be verbally beat up by a gang of posters every day? Who is it playing judge, jury and executioner?

Am I a "bad person" if I fire off an angry post in response to some insult?

You just dished out a ton of advice about forgiving. Can you forgive TM?

Are any of us in position to judge each other as people? I don't think so. We only know posts. We don't know what the person is going through in their life now, their history, their real name, where they live, etc.

Sky, if I might psychoanalyze you for a moment. I haven't been around for long so I am still learning who likes who and who hates who and all that so I could be completely wrong here, but it seems to me that you have a tendency to take what people post very personally, both in regards to what they say about you and about others. TM for example....I will speak for myself but I don't think TM is a "bad person." I don't know her so I make no judgement, nor is it my place to make a judgement regarding her value as a human being. Now, I do think she's a flaming idiot and I have no problem telling her so but that doesn't mean that I dismiss her intrinsic human value.

Just an observation but I look at this thread and I see you toss something out there and there's been plenty of people who have been willing to offer you "what has worked for them"...well that's a gesture of caring. I notice you seem to focus a lot more on what you perceive to be insults upon your character rather than the positive idea that people have been willing to offer you some support and suggestions. My guess is that if you were abused as a child (which I think everyone would have total empathy for) you may be projecting that to other posters by viewing some their comments as attacks.

Just an observation. I may be wrong

Some of what you say is true. I am happy to hear that you don't judge the intrinsic human value of TM by her posts.

I was an abused child, and I functioned exceptionally well until about five years ago when I was attacked an injured by a man that I haven't yet forgiven.

One of the side effects of PTSD, is to be cut off from ones resources. I have tremendous inner resources, but for years, I've struggled with severe anxiety and depresson. Part of what happens to an abused child is that child tends to take on the negative words of the abusive adult and to bond with them.

I've taken some posts to heart, and it hasn't been helpful to me or anyone else. The child I was took the psychological abuse to heart, and every word was like a knife. I don't remember most of the physical abuse, my sister does. But every negative word, my step parent said to me, stuck in my heart.

You''re absolutely right. I attend more to the insults than the offers of connection in many cases.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The story of Adam and Eve is the classic example of what happens when human beings don’t forgive themselves. It teaches that we were expelled from the Garden of Eden because of our innate sinfulness, that we are outcasts whose earthly task is to redeem ourselves—just like the primordial couple. But imagine how different our lives might be if, after breaking the rules, Adam and Eve had reflected, “Ah well, humans will be humans!” or “Seeking knowledge is normal,” or “Eve was in one of her moods.”

If only they’d forgiven themselves, they could have returned to paradise. Instead, believing they were unworthy and shamed before God, they thought their only choice was exile.

Every day I ask myself, “What is unforgiven? What am I not accepting?”

Only you can answer that. What I would tell myself is that I am not accepting my freedom to love myself and my freedom to feel happy most of the time.

It's nothing but a state of mind and certainly not the boogie man.

Sky, I understand that you have experienced some great hurt in your life. So have I. I doubt you could imagine them, either. But, I am thankful for the greatest of those hurts. It knocked me on my ass and I was afraid I would never recover from that hurt.

Then some wise folks told me how to move on. Without that great hurt, I would never have experienced that wisdom from others.

Some of what has been said to you in this thread has obviously touched you - in not so good of a manner. I hope somehow you find a way to see the wisdom of the experiences of others. I hope something helps you to find what you need to find.

Thank you. What happened between me and a man five years ago was horribly traumatic, but it made me deal with my childhood trauma in a way I wouldn't had to otherwise. It's been a source of blessings in many regards. It's complicated because it involves the Buddhist sangha, and a way my Lama set me up to help this guys wife. When he was abusive to her, her father, and her chldren, I got involved. He didn't like it. And he continually harassed me, threatened me, pushed me, vandalized my property, stole from me, and told me that my quick claim deed to water rights, easement etc, were "phony legal papers". Finally, he injured me.

I have this one sticky place that I'm turning my attention to. I'm working on this several times a week, once with a therapist, and two or three times with professional Focusing colleagues that I am in training with.

Thank you for your words. I am happy that you have moved on in your life. I wish you well.

 

[Si modo]

The story of Adam and Eve is the classic example of what happens when human beings don’t forgive themselves. It teaches that we were expelled from the Garden of Eden because of our innate sinfulness, that we are outcasts whose earthly task is to redeem ourselves—just like the primordial couple. But imagine how different our lives might be if, after breaking the rules, Adam and Eve had reflected, “Ah well, humans will be humans!” or “Seeking knowledge is normal,” or “Eve was in one of her moods.”

If only they’d forgiven themselves, they could have returned to paradise. Instead, believing they were unworthy and shamed before God, they thought their only choice was exile.

Every day I ask myself, “What is unforgiven? What am I not accepting?”

Only you can answer that. What I would tell myself is that I am not accepting my freedom to love myself and my freedom to feel happy most of the time.

It's nothing but a state of mind and certainly not the boogie man.

Sky, I understand that you have experienced some great hurt in your life. So have I. I doubt you could imagine them, either. But, I am thankful for the greatest of those hurts. It knocked me on my ass and I was afraid I would never recover from that hurt.

Then some wise folks told me how to move on. Without that great hurt, I would never have experienced that wisdom from others.

Some of what has been said to you in this thread has obviously touched you - in not so good of a manner. I hope somehow you find a way to see the wisdom of the experiences of others. I hope something helps you to find what you need to find.

Thank you. What happened between me and a man five years ago was horribly traumatic, but it made me deal with my childhood trauma in a way I wouldn't had to otherwise. It's been a source of blessings in many regards.

I have this one sticky place that I'm turning my attention to. I'm working on this several times a week, once with a therapist, and two or three times with professional Focusing colleagues that I am in training with.

Thank you for your words. I am happy that you have moved on in your life. I wish you well.

Sky, my great grandmother used to say something to me that I never got until just recently in life: "The strongest steel is forged in the hottest fires".

You are still around, so there is strength in you that you don't yet recognize. Nurture that strength rather than the hurt and become the gorgeous Phoenix. There is no doubt that there is a warrior in you, we see it here very often (). Use that to fight your greatest foe - yourself.

THAT is true success.

 

[masquerade]

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Heal-Your-Life/dp/0937611018[/ame]



Maybe you could stop by my Daily Affirmations thread and post an affirmation your currently working on.

 

[BluePhantom]

I've taken some posts to heart, and it hasn't been helpful to me or anyone else. The child I was took the psychological abuse to heart, and every word was like a knife. I don't remember most of the physical abuse, my sister does. But every negative word, my step parent said to me, stuck in my heart.

I understand. Think of it this way. If I offered you a nice clean, crisp $100 bill you would happily take it right? Sure, it's worth $100. But if I threw it on the ground, stomped on it, crumbled it up, and called it every name in the book, and then offered it to you would you still take it? Well sure. Why? Because even when it's been beat to shit it's still worth $100. Same concept with people. Everyone has been beat up in their lives, and unfortunately some far more than others and to some very extreme degrees, but even beat to shit people still have intrinsic value.

I hope it all works out for you.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I've taken some posts to heart, and it hasn't been helpful to me or anyone else. The child I was took the psychological abuse to heart, and every word was like a knife. I don't remember most of the physical abuse, my sister does. But every negative word, my step parent said to me, stuck in my heart.

I understand. Think of it this way. If I offered you a nice clean, crisp $100 bill you would happily take it right? Sure, it's worth $100. But if I threw it on the ground, stomped on it, crumbled it up, and called it every name in the book, and then offered it to you would you still take it? Well sure. Why? Because even when it's been beat to shit it's still worth $100. Same concept with people. Everyone has been beat up in their lives, and unfortunately some far more than others and to some very extreme degrees, but even beat to shit people still have intrinsic value.

I hope it all works out for you.

There is a line in an old Pat Benatar protest song she wrote about child abuse, called "Hell is for Children" that addressed the trauma bonding that happens in abusive families"

"Love and pain become one and the same in the eyes of wounded child."

And "You shouldn't have to pay for your love with your bones and your flesh".

 

[BluePhantom]

I've taken some posts to heart, and it hasn't been helpful to me or anyone else. The child I was took the psychological abuse to heart, and every word was like a knife. I don't remember most of the physical abuse, my sister does. But every negative word, my step parent said to me, stuck in my heart.

I understand. Think of it this way. If I offered you a nice clean, crisp $100 bill you would happily take it right? Sure, it's worth $100. But if I threw it on the ground, stomped on it, crumbled it up, and called it every name in the book, and then offered it to you would you still take it? Well sure. Why? Because even when it's been beat to shit it's still worth $100. Same concept with people. Everyone has been beat up in their lives, and unfortunately some far more than others and to some very extreme degrees, but even beat to shit people still have intrinsic value.

I hope it all works out for you.

There is a line in an old Pat Benatar protest song she wrote about child abuse, called "Hell is for Children" that addressed the trauma bonding that happens in abusive families"

"Love and pain become one and the same in the eyes of wounded child."

And "You shouldn't have to pay for your love with your bones and your flesh".

yeah Concrete Angel is a very difficult song for me to listen to. As "unmanly" as it may be it brings me to tears when I hear it.

 

[Si modo]

Feelings follow thoughts, Sky.

I try to catch myself whenever I think about what hurts.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What may be different about how I'm working with this, then how you may work with it, Si, is that I'm not trying to push it away. I'm working on befriending it and giving it loving attention so that it can relax and feel heard.

I pushed it away for most of my life and funtioned very well, but it had a cost. A cost I'm no longer willing to pay.