Fixing Tax Loopholes, 51% of Americans Pay NO Incomes Taxes

[DiamondDave]

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

Are you that ignorant, Ravi.... adjusting the tax floor makes it unequal treatment... the floor changes the bottom line... where someone making 19K pays zero in income taxes of their total... and changing the effective and actual rates on everyone else up the chain... whether you wish to see it that way or not... it is indeed playing favorites..

No, I don't see it. Everyone gets the same exact treatment: no taxes on 19K of your income.

It is exactly like the property tax situation here. Everyone pays the exact same property tax percentage on the assessed value of their house. And everyone is allowed to not pay property taxes on the first $25,000 of the value.

I have never heard anyone claim this was progressive or unfair.

You simply are not thinking.

Taxed on 0% of your income, or 30% of your income, or 99% of your income, because of the tax floor, is not differing treatment???

Ravi.... sorry... you are flat out wrong

And I would be against your area's way of property taxation as well

 

[edthecynic]

Well... I am for flat rates with zero loopholes on corporate as well... whether it be on profit or income would be an interesting discussion...

The answer of a typical politician!

I find it interesting that you do not need to even discus taxing total personal income, but believing in equal treatment as strongly as you profess to do, you are open to discussion as to whether to tax the corporate personhood's total income or to allow deductions.

No.. it would be an interesting discussion.. mainly because I do not agree with the SC's ruling on corporations... and do not consider a corporation the same as a person or citizen... and IMHO, it makes it a whole different discussion...

Whether you agree or disagree with the Extreme Court, it is now the law of the land. Corporations are persons, so should they be treated equally as other persons, to a person as obsessed with equal treatment under the law as you?

 

[DiamondDave]

The answer of a typical politician!

I find it interesting that you do not need to even discus taxing total personal income, but believing in equal treatment as strongly as you profess to do, you are open to discussion as to whether to tax the corporate personhood's total income or to allow deductions.

No.. it would be an interesting discussion.. mainly because I do not agree with the SC's ruling on corporations... and do not consider a corporation the same as a person or citizen... and IMHO, it makes it a whole different discussion...

Whether you agree or disagree with the Extreme Court, it is now the law of the land. Corporations are persons, so should they be treated equally as other persons, to a person as obsessed with equal treatment under the law as you?

In the current scheme of things.. I see your point... but much as I disagree with the law of the land on taxation as it stands now, and want that changed... I also would want the SC decision changed...

 

[edthecynic]

No.. it would be an interesting discussion.. mainly because I do not agree with the SC's ruling on corporations... and do not consider a corporation the same as a person or citizen... and IMHO, it makes it a whole different discussion...

Whether you agree or disagree with the Extreme Court, it is now the law of the land. Corporations are persons, so should they be treated equally as other persons, to a person as obsessed with equal treatment under the law as you?

In the current scheme of things.. I see your point... but much as I disagree with the law of the land on taxation as it stands now, and want that changed... I also would want the SC decision changed...

Ever the politician!

 

[dblack]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

I think there is merit to Dave's position. Even without the $20k exemption, income tax will always have a progressive nature - the more you make, the more you pay. But that's the case with nearly any taxation scheme apart from a straight up head tax.

 

[DiamondDave]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

I think there is merit to Dave's position. Even without the $20k exemption, income tax will always have a progressive nature - the more you make, the more you pay. But that's the case with nearly any taxation scheme apart from a straight up head tax.

You either have equality in treatment as a total or as a % in terms of taxation... somehow I don't think taxing each citizen a lump sum of 105K a year is going to be feasible

 

[edthecynic]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

I think there is merit to Dave's position. Even without the $20k exemption, income tax will always have a progressive nature - the more you make, the more you pay. But that's the case with nearly any taxation scheme apart from a straight up head tax.

But a straight up head tax would be Socialized taxes! If Socialism is bad for profits then it must be equally bad for taxes, so that rules out Socialized taxes as a choice.

 

[xsited1]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

I think there is merit to Dave's position. Even without the $20k exemption, income tax will always have a progressive nature - the more you make, the more you pay. But that's the case with nearly any taxation scheme apart from a straight up head tax.

Hold on their folks. I know I'm a little late for the party, but "the more you make, the more you pay" is only progressive taxation if the tax rate increases with income. A flat tax rate for everyone is not progressive and one that is fair and doesn't suffer from the welfare and class warfare problems I mentioned in another post.

 

[dblack]

But a straight up head tax would be Socialized taxes! If Socialism is bad for profits then it must be equally bad for taxes, so that rules out Socialized taxes as a choice.

Not sure what you mean. FWIW, I'm not advocating for a head tax. Just pointing out that it's pretty much the only kind of tax that would entail everyone paying the same share of the tax burden.

 

[thereisnospoon]

(Re-post)

Sexual deviants have difficulty understanding that others do not share their perverse inclinations. It's called subliminal projection.

The notion that those who are critical of excessive wealth are motivated by hate and envy, which is a common belief among water-carriers for the rich, is another example of projection -- in this case from an innately selfish and gluttonous nature.

They can't help it and their thinking cannot easily be altered. Best to ignore it.

Hey, if you want to hide behind that lame assed psycho babble, it's your choice.
That facts state otherwise.
It is your side that looks upon wealth ,success achievement, single family home ownership, private property rights and neighborhood schools with utter disdain.
To you people, anything which people can look upon as accomplishment is evil.
Once again, liberal compassion always begins and ends in someone else's bank account.

You lazy CON$ervative slackers are just jealous of the more financially successful, higher achieving Libs and rather than work as hard as a Lib to achieve what Libs have achieved, you try to drag Libs down to your level.

Get a ******* job you lazy assed piece of shit!

Congratulations! That was straight out of the liberal play book.
Accuse others of doing what libs do and make them defend the accusation as opposed to dealing with the facts.
Not playing your game. You are in the trap and there's no way out for you.
Piece of shit huh?
Listen you cat ******, it is my hope you embarrass the shit out of yourself in front of your community.
You are an empty headed licker of other people's backsides.
.
This is not a discussion. You needn't bother responding. Your flip out will go unread.
You are toast. Bye.

 

[dblack]

Hold on their folks. I know I'm a little late for the party, but "the more you make, the more you pay" is only progressive taxation if the tax rate increases with income.

Depends on how you define 'progressive'. I was responding the general opinion that people shouldn't be require to pay more taxes simply because they make more money, and even a flat-rate income tax does that. I don't think that kind of 'progressive' taxation is a problem and as I mentioned previously, pretty much any taxation scheme entails people with more money paying more taxes.

 

[Ravi]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

I think there is merit to Dave's position. Even without the $20k exemption, income tax will always have a progressive nature - the more you make, the more you pay. But that's the case with nearly any taxation scheme apart from a straight up head tax.

But there is no inherent unfairness since everyone would be taxed exactly the same.

But since there is this perceived unfairness, perhaps it would be better just to charge a straight flat tax on all income.

Of course that opens another can of worms. Should not the basic necessities for life (food, shelter and clothing) be exempt?

 

[DiamondDave]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

I think there is merit to Dave's position. Even without the $20k exemption, income tax will always have a progressive nature - the more you make, the more you pay. But that's the case with nearly any taxation scheme apart from a straight up head tax.

But there is no inherent unfairness since everyone would be taxed exactly the same.

But since there is this perceived unfairness, perhaps it would be better just to charge a straight flat tax on all income.

Of course that opens another can of worms. Should not the basic necessities for life (food, shelter and clothing) be exempt?

No.. they are not being taxed the same way on every dollar of their income...

Your basic necessities are your responsibility, not the government... your food is exempt on sales tax... and if you open the can of worms on food expenses being tax deductible.. let alone going against the elimination of deductions, opening the door for going right back to the bullshit we have now... what is to stop the 'evil rich' from deducting caviar while the 'poor' only deduct for SPAM??

See Ravi... when you start with these exceptions, you open up to subjectivity and the bullshit concept of 'fairness' where emotions get involved... and we all know emotions and feelings buy votes... this is one thing that has brought our leviathan system to the level of corruption and size it is now

 

[dblack]

But there is no inherent unfairness since everyone would be taxed exactly the same.

Depends on how you look at it, I guess. People who make more pay more taxes - it's unequal, whether you consider it 'fair' or not.

In any case, I think it's a specious reason to oppose a flat-rate income tax with a base exemption. And I can't help but think that most of the people opposing such a change are simply are happy with the current system because it benefits them - they have a nice set of deductions and tax dodges under the current system and don't want to give it up.

 

[DiamondDave]

But there is no inherent unfairness since everyone would be taxed exactly the same.

Depends on how you look at it, I guess. People who make more pay more taxes - it's unequal, whether you consider it 'fair' or not.

In any case, I think it's a specious reason to oppose a flat-rate income tax with a base exemption. And I can't help but think that most of the people opposing such a change are simply are happy with the current system because it benefits them - they have a nice set of deductions and tax dodges under the current system and don't want to give it up.

Hell.. I want no floor and no deductions... and I am not happy with the current system, even with earning a good wage, having a mortgage, giving to charities, etc for various deductions

 

[Article 15]

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate. The rich person pays the same rate on their 35,000th dollar of taxable income as someone from the middle class would. Should the middle class person begin to make more money they pay they same rate on their 200,000th dollar of taxable income as everyone else. *shrug*

 

[DiamondDave]

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate. The rich person pays the same rate on their 35,000th dollar of taxable income as someone from the middle class would. Should the middle class person begin to make more money they pay they same rate on their 200,000th dollar of taxable income as everyone else. *shrug*

You're acting as if the first 20k don't exist and never existed... it is income... and the tax floor is yet another disguised way of keeping away from equal % taxation.. as shown... it changes the tax % rates on everyone up the income scale, whether you wish to see it or not... IMHO, ones like you know this, but just don't wish to defend your want for the 'evil rich' to pay a higher % than you

 

[dblack]

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate.

I guess it depends on whether you're looking at it from the perspective of a dollar or a person.

 

[Ravi]

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate. The rich person pays the same rate on their 35,000th dollar of taxable income as someone from the middle class would. Should the middle class person begin to make more money they pay they same rate on their 200,000th dollar of taxable income as everyone else. *shrug*

You're acting as if the first 20k don't exist and never existed... it is income... and the tax floor is yet another disguised way of keeping away from equal % taxation.. as shown... it changes the tax % rates on everyone up the income scale, whether you wish to see it or not... IMHO, ones like you know this, but just don't wish to defend your want for the 'evil rich' to pay a higher % than you

I have a feeling that those you keep accusing of being against the evil rich make more than $20,000 per year.

 

[Article 15]

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate. The rich person pays the same rate on their 35,000th dollar of taxable income as someone from the middle class would. Should the middle class person begin to make more money they pay they same rate on their 200,000th dollar of taxable income as everyone else. *shrug*

You're acting as if the first 20k don't exist and never existed... it is income... and the tax floor is yet another disguised way of keeping away from equal % taxation.. as shown... it changes the tax % rates on everyone up the income scale, whether you wish to see it or not... IMHO, ones like you know this, but just don't wish to defend your want for the 'evil rich' to pay a higher % than you

That 20k exist and the guy making 25k a year doesn't pay on that first 20k, just like the guy make 27 million a year doesn't pay on that first 20k. So no, I'm not buying what you are selling.