Fixing Tax Loopholes, 51% of Americans Pay NO Incomes Taxes

[Ravi]

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate.

I guess it depends on whether you're looking at it from the perspective of a dollar or a person.

This is how I look at it:

Here, I'll pay you $20,000 per year and it is yours to keep with no taxes.

Here's an extra $10,000 this year, you will have to pay 10% of it in taxes.

Here's an extra $40,000 this year, you will have to pay 10% of it in taxes.

Everyone pays the same percentage on income over $20,000. No one pays a dime on income $20,000 and under.

 

[DiamondDave]

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate. The rich person pays the same rate on their 35,000th dollar of taxable income as someone from the middle class would. Should the middle class person begin to make more money they pay they same rate on their 200,000th dollar of taxable income as everyone else. *shrug*

You're acting as if the first 20k don't exist and never existed... it is income... and the tax floor is yet another disguised way of keeping away from equal % taxation.. as shown... it changes the tax % rates on everyone up the income scale, whether you wish to see it or not... IMHO, ones like you know this, but just don't wish to defend your want for the 'evil rich' to pay a higher % than you

That 20k exist and the guy making 25k a year doesn't pay on that first 20k, just like the guy make 27 million a year doesn't pay on that first 20k. So no, I'm not buying what you are selling.

I am not buying what you are selling.... you want nothing more than a different color of a progressive system, with advocating others paying more of a % than you on the dollars they earn

In a simple to figure system of a flat 10% tax rate on income

Mr 25K in a system without a floor pays 2.5K or a 10% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.5MIL or a 10% rate on his income... that , bud, is equality in treatment...

Mr 25K in a system with a 20K floor pays $500 or a 2% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.498MIL or a 9.992% rate on his income

Where you cannot see this as inequality is beyond me

 

[DiamondDave]

Yeah I'm not seeing the inequality either.... every dollar of taxable income is taxed at the same rate.

I guess it depends on whether you're looking at it from the perspective of a dollar or a person.

This is how I look at it:

Here, I'll pay you $20,000 per year and it is yours to keep with no taxes.

Here's an extra $10,000 this year, you will have to pay 10% of it in taxes.

Here's an extra $40,000 this year, you will have to pay 10% of it in taxes.

Everyone pays the same percentage on income over $20,000. No one pays a dime on income $20,000 and under.

Explained in the post below your post here

 

[Article 15]

You're acting as if the first 20k don't exist and never existed... it is income... and the tax floor is yet another disguised way of keeping away from equal % taxation.. as shown... it changes the tax % rates on everyone up the income scale, whether you wish to see it or not... IMHO, ones like you know this, but just don't wish to defend your want for the 'evil rich' to pay a higher % than you

That 20k exist and the guy making 25k a year doesn't pay on that first 20k, just like the guy make 27 million a year doesn't pay on that first 20k. So no, I'm not buying what you are selling.

I am not buying what you are selling.... you want nothing more than a different color of a progressive system, with advocating others paying more of a % than you on the dollars they earn

In a simple to figure system of a flat 10% tax rate on income

Mr 25K in a system without a floor pays 2.5K or a 10% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.5MIL or a 10% rate on his income... that , bud, is equality in treatment...

Mr 25K in a system with a 20K floor pays $500 or a 2% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.498MIL or a 9.992% rate on his income

Where you cannot see this as inequality is beyond me

As long as everyone's dollar for dollar income is taxed at the same rate there is no inequality, be it in a progressive or flat tax system.

 

[California Girl]

Unequal treatment under law by government...

Sales tax, is not unequal treatment, discriminatory, nor based on some bullshit subjective concept of fairness... 5% (or whatever rate) on every dollar spent in the sale of an item to the consumer... whether you make 500K or 15K... whether you spend $500 or $5... it is not about the person, it is about the dollar(s) spent...

Income tax should be just as blind... and about the dollar earned, not the person, not the boo hoo sob story, not about the buying of votes...

It is not equal treatment to have one person paying 0% or 5% when another is paying 28%... it is not equal treatment either to have specifically designed loopholes for certain groups of people...

Hence.. for true equality in treatment by government under law.. eliminate the progressive code and eliminate the deductions and loopholes... and with the simplification you don't need as huge of a government entity to collect and analyze taxes... and with everyone having a stake in the game (the same stake in % of every dollar), IMHO you would have more public scrutiny over how government spends and does its job

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

The income is taxed.. but the rules are based on circumstances of the persons and their individual situations.. making it about the person... when you eliminate all that complicated bullshit, you take that personalization out of the situation... the more personalization you have, the more you open the door for subjective bullshit exceptions, like we have now

Scary as this may be, I'm gonna side with Ravi on this.

It is reasonable to put a basic allowance, as has already been given, say $20,000. So no one pays tax on the first $20k. Over that, for every buck, you pay a percentage. Sure that would mean those who earn more pay more but that is also quite reasonable. We are not a society of neanderthals, we do need to pay our fair share. The issue is what is fair? Is it fair for you to pay and me not? No. It is fair that we all have a basic figure before tax kicks in, and that everyone pays the same percentage on anything over that amount.

I don't disagree with you with saying a sales tax is a more equal way to pay, everyone chooses whether or not they buy an item or not, and everyone pays the same rate of tax on anything they buy. In theory, that's a great solution. However, every single country where this has been implemented have ended up with a sales tax AND income tax. Britain is great example of this fiasco. Back in the 70s, they sold the concept of their VAT (or sales tax) as an eventual replacement for income tax - which they said would be phased out. Has that happened? No. What they have is 23% income tax (along with 40% and 50% for higher earners) and 20% sales tax.

The problem basically is this:

Who the hell would trust a ******* government to keep their promise? I certainly wouldn't. Their track record is evidence of government bullshit.

 

[Ravi]

That 20k exist and the guy making 25k a year doesn't pay on that first 20k, just like the guy make 27 million a year doesn't pay on that first 20k. So no, I'm not buying what you are selling.

I am not buying what you are selling.... you want nothing more than a different color of a progressive system, with advocating others paying more of a % than you on the dollars they earn

In a simple to figure system of a flat 10% tax rate on income

Mr 25K in a system without a floor pays 2.5K or a 10% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.5MIL or a 10% rate on his income... that , bud, is equality in treatment...

Mr 25K in a system with a 20K floor pays $500 or a 2% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.498MIL or a 9.992% rate on his income

Where you cannot see this as inequality is beyond me

As long as everyone's dollar for dollar income is taxed at the same rate there is no inequality, be it in a progressive or flat tax system.

Bingo!

 

[DiamondDave]

That 20k exist and the guy making 25k a year doesn't pay on that first 20k, just like the guy make 27 million a year doesn't pay on that first 20k. So no, I'm not buying what you are selling.

I am not buying what you are selling.... you want nothing more than a different color of a progressive system, with advocating others paying more of a % than you on the dollars they earn

In a simple to figure system of a flat 10% tax rate on income

Mr 25K in a system without a floor pays 2.5K or a 10% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.5MIL or a 10% rate on his income... that , bud, is equality in treatment...

Mr 25K in a system with a 20K floor pays $500 or a 2% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.498MIL or a 9.992% rate on his income

Where you cannot see this as inequality is beyond me

As long as everyone's dollar for dollar income is taxed at the same rate there is no inequality, be it in a progressive or flat tax system.

The progressive system, by nature ensures a change to the playing field (income) and inherently creates the inequality in treatment...

Like I said.. I fully believe you see and know this... but desperately try to continue to defend someone else paying more of a % than you...

 

[DiamondDave]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

The income is taxed.. but the rules are based on circumstances of the persons and their individual situations.. making it about the person... when you eliminate all that complicated bullshit, you take that personalization out of the situation... the more personalization you have, the more you open the door for subjective bullshit exceptions, like we have now

Scary as this may be, I'm gonna side with Ravi on this.

It is reasonable to put a basic allowance, as has already been given, say $20,000. So no one pays tax on the first $20k. Over that, for every buck, you pay a percentage. Sure that would mean those who earn more pay more but that is also quite reasonable. We are not a society of neanderthals, we do need to pay our fair share. The issue is what is fair? Is it fair for you to pay and me not? No. It is fair that we all have a basic figure before tax kicks in, and that everyone pays the same percentage on anything over that amount.

I don't disagree with you with saying a sales tax is a more equal way to pay, everyone chooses whether or not they buy an item or not, and everyone pays the same rate of tax on anything they buy. In theory, that's a great solution. However, every single country where this has been implemented have ended up with a sales tax AND income tax. Britain is great example of this fiasco. Back in the 70s, they sold the concept of their VAT (or sales tax) as an eventual replacement for income tax - which they said would be phased out. Has that happened? No. What they have is 23% income tax (along with 40% and 50% for higher earners) and 20% sales tax.

The problem basically is this:

Who the hell would trust a ******* government to keep their promise? I certainly wouldn't. Their track record is evidence of government bullshit.

Then sorry CG... you stand for inequality in government treatment... and you stand for opening up the door for more exemptions and deductions

 

[Article 15]

I am not buying what you are selling.... you want nothing more than a different color of a progressive system, with advocating others paying more of a % than you on the dollars they earn

In a simple to figure system of a flat 10% tax rate on income

Mr 25K in a system without a floor pays 2.5K or a 10% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.5MIL or a 10% rate on his income... that , bud, is equality in treatment...

Mr 25K in a system with a 20K floor pays $500 or a 2% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.498MIL or a 9.992% rate on his income

Where you cannot see this as inequality is beyond me

As long as everyone's dollar for dollar income is taxed at the same rate there is no inequality, be it in a progressive or flat tax system.

The progressive system, by nature ensures a change to the playing field (income) and inherently creates the inequality in treatment...

Like I said.. I fully believe you see and know this... but desperately try to continue to defend someone else paying more of a % than you...

Personally, I think you are just projecting your own issue on me.

Does the person who earns 50k in taxable income pay the same rate on dollars 20k-25k earned as the persona who earns 27 million? Yes or no?

If that 50k person were to begin making 27 million would they pay at a different rate than the guy already making that much and vice versa? Yes or no?

 

[edthecynic]

Hey, if you want to hide behind that lame assed psycho babble, it's your choice.
That facts state otherwise.
It is your side that looks upon wealth ,success achievement, single family home ownership, private property rights and neighborhood schools with utter disdain.
To you people, anything which people can look upon as accomplishment is evil.
Once again, liberal compassion always begins and ends in someone else's bank account.

You lazy CON$ervative slackers are just jealous of the more financially successful, higher achieving Libs and rather than work as hard as a Lib to achieve what Libs have achieved, you try to drag Libs down to your level.

Get a ******* job you lazy assed piece of shit!

Congratulations! That was straight out of the liberal play book.
Accuse others of doing what libs do and make them defend the accusation as opposed to dealing with the facts.
Not playing your game. You are in the trap and there's no way out for you.
Piece of shit huh?
Listen you cat ******, it is my hope you embarrass the shit out of yourself in front of your community.
You are an empty headed licker of other people's backsides.
.
This is not a discussion. You needn't bother responding. Your flip out will go unread.
You are toast. Bye.

Obviously I struck a nerve in your lazy ass.

The fact remains that Libs on the average are more financially successful than CON$, so there is no reason to think that Libs look at their greater achievements with "utter disdain," as you moronically claim!

 

[xsited1]

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

The income is taxed.. but the rules are based on circumstances of the persons and their individual situations.. making it about the person... when you eliminate all that complicated bullshit, you take that personalization out of the situation... the more personalization you have, the more you open the door for subjective bullshit exceptions, like we have now

Scary as this may be, I'm gonna side with Ravi on this.

It is reasonable to put a basic allowance, as has already been given, say $20,000. So no one pays tax on the first $20k. Over that, for every buck, you pay a percentage. Sure that would mean those who earn more pay more but that is also quite reasonable. We are not a society of neanderthals, we do need to pay our fair share. The issue is what is fair? Is it fair for you to pay and me not? No. It is fair that we all have a basic figure before tax kicks in, and that everyone pays the same percentage on anything over that amount.

I don't disagree with you with saying a sales tax is a more equal way to pay, everyone chooses whether or not they buy an item or not, and everyone pays the same rate of tax on anything they buy. In theory, that's a great solution. However, every single country where this has been implemented have ended up with a sales tax AND income tax. Britain is great example of this fiasco. Back in the 70s, they sold the concept of their VAT (or sales tax) as an eventual replacement for income tax - which they said would be phased out. Has that happened? No. What they have is 23% income tax (along with 40% and 50% for higher earners) and 20% sales tax.

The problem basically is this:

Who the hell would trust a ******* government to keep their promise? I certainly wouldn't. Their track record is evidence of government bullshit.

Yeah, me, too. Is hell freezing over?

The VAT is a great idea (similar to a consumption tax), but eliminate all other taxes. Otherwise, a flat tax will do. The idea of a progressive tax is stupid (where tax percentage goes up with income) and only leads to problems (as I mentioned in another post).

 

[The T]

I am not buying what you are selling.... you want nothing more than a different color of a progressive system, with advocating others paying more of a % than you on the dollars they earn

In a simple to figure system of a flat 10% tax rate on income

Mr 25K in a system without a floor pays 2.5K or a 10% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.5MIL or a 10% rate on his income... that , bud, is equality in treatment...

Mr 25K in a system with a 20K floor pays $500 or a 2% rate on his income... Mr 25MIL pays 2.498MIL or a 9.992% rate on his income

Where you cannot see this as inequality is beyond me

As long as everyone's dollar for dollar income is taxed at the same rate there is no inequality, be it in a progressive or flat tax system.

The progressive system, by nature ensures a change to the playing field (income) and inherently creates the inequality in treatment...

Like I said.. I fully believe you see and know this... but desperately try to continue to defend someone else paying more of a % than you...

Not only inequality in treatment but used as a vehicle in Class warfare by politicians and their vote-buying schemes to keep them ensconced in power and the people as slaves to the same government.

Times those shackles were cut off our hands permanently.

 

[Bern80]

The income is taxed.. but the rules are based on circumstances of the persons and their individual situations.. making it about the person... when you eliminate all that complicated bullshit, you take that personalization out of the situation... the more personalization you have, the more you open the door for subjective bullshit exceptions, like we have now

Scary as this may be, I'm gonna side with Ravi on this.

It is reasonable to put a basic allowance, as has already been given, say $20,000. So no one pays tax on the first $20k. Over that, for every buck, you pay a percentage. Sure that would mean those who earn more pay more but that is also quite reasonable. We are not a society of neanderthals, we do need to pay our fair share. The issue is what is fair? Is it fair for you to pay and me not? No. It is fair that we all have a basic figure before tax kicks in, and that everyone pays the same percentage on anything over that amount.

I don't disagree with you with saying a sales tax is a more equal way to pay, everyone chooses whether or not they buy an item or not, and everyone pays the same rate of tax on anything they buy. In theory, that's a great solution. However, every single country where this has been implemented have ended up with a sales tax AND income tax. Britain is great example of this fiasco. Back in the 70s, they sold the concept of their VAT (or sales tax) as an eventual replacement for income tax - which they said would be phased out. Has that happened? No. What they have is 23% income tax (along with 40% and 50% for higher earners) and 20% sales tax.

The problem basically is this:

Who the hell would trust a ******* government to keep their promise? I certainly wouldn't. Their track record is evidence of government bullshit.

Then sorry CG... you stand for inequality in government treatment... and you stand for opening up the door for more exemptions and deductions

Both have a point. It's still a progressive system that punishes people for making more money. It's just far far less progressive than the system in place now.

 

[MikeK]

"Socialism will only work with a society of prisoners, slaves, and robots who can be controlled by the ruling elite (which will always exist in that type of system).

And funny how socialism is something to be forced upon the 'people', and not really for the socialists themselves"

The above is taken from your signature message.

If you believe that right-wing propaganda I respectfully suggest you research Denmark, which is a recognized socialist nation -- and is considered the "happiest" nation in the world.
Denmark: The Happiest Place on Earth - ABC News

The fact that your belief system is predicated on a false premise means your intellectual compass is defective. So unless you wish to remain adrift you need to correct that error.

 

[Big Fitz]

me thinks it's odd that people are actually ENVIOUS of the poor....

mean's they're getting too good a deal then.

 

[Big Fitz]

i could go for that kind of reform...as long as the first 20k is exempt for all....

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

nothing like writing discrimination against successful people into the tax code. So much for equality under the law I guess.

 

[Ravi]

i could go for that kind of reform...as long as the first 20k is exempt for all....

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

nothing like writing discrimination against successful people into the tax code. So much for equality under the law I guess.

Another idiot heard from.

 

[Article 15]

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

nothing like writing discrimination against successful people into the tax code. So much for equality under the law I guess.

Another idiot heard from.

I'm thinking about quitting the firm and seeing if Friendly's will hire me back on as a cook.

I could use the tax break.

 

[Big Fitz]

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

nothing like writing discrimination against successful people into the tax code. So much for equality under the law I guess.

Another idiot heard from.

Your hat's on too tight then.

 

[Big Fitz]

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

nothing like writing discrimination against successful people into the tax code. So much for equality under the law I guess.

Another idiot heard from.

Hey, didn't you also get all riled up on race based bake sales put on by campus republicans? The whiter you were, the higher the price?


Apparently the more successful you are the more you pay for less access to government. This is not discrimination how?