Fixing Tax Loopholes, 51% of Americans Pay NO Incomes Taxes

[DiamondDave]

i could go for that kind of reform...as long as the first 20k is exempt for all....

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

But that tax floor adjustment is just another disguised way of a progressive tax.... hence why I would never be for such a thing

 

[Ravi]

i could go for that kind of reform...as long as the first 20k is exempt for all....

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

But that tax floor adjustment is just another disguised way of a progressive tax.... hence why I would never be for such a thing

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

 

[dblack]

i could go for that kind of reform...as long as the first 20k is exempt for all....

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

But that tax floor adjustment is just another disguised way of a progressive tax.... hence why I would never be for such a thing

Are you for improving, even if not perfecting, things? And would you agree that a progressive tax applied equally to everyone is better than a progressive tax that some people pay, and some people don't, depending on how well that satisfy the whims of congress?

Also, fwiw, exempting the first 20k and applying a flat tax rate on the rest would end up much less 'progressive' than what we have now. I can't really see how someone could oppose such a change - unless of course they're getting a sweetheart deal under the current arrangement and don't want to give up bennies.

 

[xsited1]

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

But that tax floor adjustment is just another disguised way of a progressive tax.... hence why I would never be for such a thing

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

I can't speak for DiamondDave, but there are two problems progressive taxation:

1. Welfare
2. Class Warfare

Those who support progressive taxation pretend to be on the moral high ground but, in fact, they have no ground to stand on. Envy, not justice, is at the root of the argument for discriminatory (a.k.a., progressive) taxation. That is why those who most strongly advocate progressive taxation are in favor of the welfare state. "Law is the bond of civil society, and justice is equality under the law," wrote Cicero. If we are to restore civil society and move from tax socialism to tax justice, we need to abolish progressive taxation, institute a fair flat tax and limit the size of government.

It comes down to this: If you are in favor of the welfare State and Class Warfare, support progressive taxation.

 

[Ravi]

But that tax floor adjustment is just another disguised way of a progressive tax.... hence why I would never be for such a thing

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

I can't speak for DiamondDave, but there are two problems progressive taxation:

1. Welfare
2. Class Warfare

Those who support progressive taxation pretend to be on the moral high ground but, in fact, they have no ground to stand on. Envy, not justice, is at the root of the argument for discriminatory (a.k.a., progressive) taxation. That is why those who most strongly advocate progressive taxation are in favor of the welfare state. "Law is the bond of civil society, and justice is equality under the law," wrote Cicero. If we are to restore civil society and move from tax socialism to tax justice, we need to abolish progressive taxation, institute a fair flat tax and limit the size of government.

It comes down to this: If you are in favor of the welfare State and Class Warfare, support progressive taxation.

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

 

[Care4all]

Diamond Dave.....our government can not legally tax us on our entire income....we have a "taxable income" and a gross income.....they can only legally tax us on "profit"....for us peon individuals, they figure out the minimal cost of living expenses and give us a deduction for such expenses.... through the standard deduction and personal exemption deductions....this comes out to almost 10k a year per person, in deductions from their income, for their minimal operating expenses so to say, to come to the "taxable income" figure, or ones profit.....that is federally taxed.

Of course it's lunacy to actually think that a person could live on 10k a year this day and age and anything above that is "profit" for this person is just bulloney....imho....but it is, what it is....

soooo, bottom line, taxing our entire incomes, with no consideration of the cost of ones living, is against the rules of the game....

 

[DiamondDave]

Consensus!! Let it be written, let it be so...


Anyway, to me, the real crime highlighted by the headline of this thread is that you'd expect that the 51% of the people not paying income taxes would be those with the lowest incomes, and that's just not the case. That's screwed up.

But that tax floor adjustment is just another disguised way of a progressive tax.... hence why I would never be for such a thing

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

Unequal treatment under law by government...

Sales tax, is not unequal treatment, discriminatory, nor based on some bullshit subjective concept of fairness... 5% (or whatever rate) on every dollar spent in the sale of an item to the consumer... whether you make 500K or 15K... whether you spend $500 or $5... it is not about the person, it is about the dollar(s) spent...

Income tax should be just as blind... and about the dollar earned, not the person, not the boo hoo sob story, not about the buying of votes...

It is not equal treatment to have one person paying 0% or 5% when another is paying 28%... it is not equal treatment either to have specifically designed loopholes for certain groups of people...

Hence.. for true equality in treatment by government under law.. eliminate the progressive code and eliminate the deductions and loopholes... and with the simplification you don't need as huge of a government entity to collect and analyze taxes... and with everyone having a stake in the game (the same stake in % of every dollar), IMHO you would have more public scrutiny over how government spends and does its job

 

[xsited1]

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

I can't speak for DiamondDave, but there are two problems progressive taxation:

1. Welfare
2. Class Warfare

Those who support progressive taxation pretend to be on the moral high ground but, in fact, they have no ground to stand on. Envy, not justice, is at the root of the argument for discriminatory (a.k.a., progressive) taxation. That is why those who most strongly advocate progressive taxation are in favor of the welfare state. "Law is the bond of civil society, and justice is equality under the law," wrote Cicero. If we are to restore civil society and move from tax socialism to tax justice, we need to abolish progressive taxation, institute a fair flat tax and limit the size of government.

It comes down to this: If you are in favor of the welfare State and Class Warfare, support progressive taxation.

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

I thought you talking about a true progressive tax system like we have now. My apologies.

 

[Ravi]

But that tax floor adjustment is just another disguised way of a progressive tax.... hence why I would never be for such a thing

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

Unequal treatment under law by government...

Sales tax, is not unequal treatment, discriminatory, nor based on some bullshit subjective concept of fairness... 5% (or whatever rate) on every dollar spent in the sale of an item to the consumer... whether you make 500K or 15K... whether you spend $500 or $5... it is not about the person, it is about the dollar(s) spent...

Income tax should be just as blind... and about the dollar earned, not the person, not the boo hoo sob story, not about the buying of votes...

It is not equal treatment to have one person paying 0% or 5% when another is paying 28%... it is not equal treatment either to have specifically designed loopholes for certain groups of people...

Hence.. for true equality in treatment by government under law.. eliminate the progressive code and eliminate the deductions and loopholes... and with the simplification you don't need as huge of a government entity to collect and analyze taxes... and with everyone having a stake in the game (the same stake in % of every dollar), IMHO you would have more public scrutiny over how government spends and does its job

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

 

[DiamondDave]

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

I can't speak for DiamondDave, but there are two problems progressive taxation:

1. Welfare
2. Class Warfare

Those who support progressive taxation pretend to be on the moral high ground but, in fact, they have no ground to stand on. Envy, not justice, is at the root of the argument for discriminatory (a.k.a., progressive) taxation. That is why those who most strongly advocate progressive taxation are in favor of the welfare state. "Law is the bond of civil society, and justice is equality under the law," wrote Cicero. If we are to restore civil society and move from tax socialism to tax justice, we need to abolish progressive taxation, institute a fair flat tax and limit the size of government.

It comes down to this: If you are in favor of the welfare State and Class Warfare, support progressive taxation.

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

 

[DiamondDave]

What exactly do you have against a progressive tax?

Unequal treatment under law by government...

Sales tax, is not unequal treatment, discriminatory, nor based on some bullshit subjective concept of fairness... 5% (or whatever rate) on every dollar spent in the sale of an item to the consumer... whether you make 500K or 15K... whether you spend $500 or $5... it is not about the person, it is about the dollar(s) spent...

Income tax should be just as blind... and about the dollar earned, not the person, not the boo hoo sob story, not about the buying of votes...

It is not equal treatment to have one person paying 0% or 5% when another is paying 28%... it is not equal treatment either to have specifically designed loopholes for certain groups of people...

Hence.. for true equality in treatment by government under law.. eliminate the progressive code and eliminate the deductions and loopholes... and with the simplification you don't need as huge of a government entity to collect and analyze taxes... and with everyone having a stake in the game (the same stake in % of every dollar), IMHO you would have more public scrutiny over how government spends and does its job

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

The income is taxed.. but the rules are based on circumstances of the persons and their individual situations.. making it about the person... when you eliminate all that complicated bullshit, you take that personalization out of the situation... the more personalization you have, the more you open the door for subjective bullshit exceptions, like we have now

 

[edthecynic]

I can't speak for DiamondDave, but there are two problems progressive taxation:

1. Welfare
2. Class Warfare

Those who support progressive taxation pretend to be on the moral high ground but, in fact, they have no ground to stand on. Envy, not justice, is at the root of the argument for discriminatory (a.k.a., progressive) taxation. That is why those who most strongly advocate progressive taxation are in favor of the welfare state. "Law is the bond of civil society, and justice is equality under the law," wrote Cicero. If we are to restore civil society and move from tax socialism to tax justice, we need to abolish progressive taxation, institute a fair flat tax and limit the size of government.

It comes down to this: If you are in favor of the welfare State and Class Warfare, support progressive taxation.

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

As you know, the Extreme Court has upheld a corporation as a person. Corporations get to deduct their overhead from their gross income. The overhead for a person is the food, clothing and shelter costs for survival. Should the corporate personhood be taxed any different than the personal corporationhood under your equal treatment rationalization? Will corporations be taxed on every dollar they take in under your tax system?

 

[Ravi]

I can't speak for DiamondDave, but there are two problems progressive taxation:

1. Welfare
2. Class Warfare

Those who support progressive taxation pretend to be on the moral high ground but, in fact, they have no ground to stand on. Envy, not justice, is at the root of the argument for discriminatory (a.k.a., progressive) taxation. That is why those who most strongly advocate progressive taxation are in favor of the welfare state. "Law is the bond of civil society, and justice is equality under the law," wrote Cicero. If we are to restore civil society and move from tax socialism to tax justice, we need to abolish progressive taxation, institute a fair flat tax and limit the size of government.

It comes down to this: If you are in favor of the welfare State and Class Warfare, support progressive taxation.

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

 

[Ravi]

Unequal treatment under law by government...

Sales tax, is not unequal treatment, discriminatory, nor based on some bullshit subjective concept of fairness... 5% (or whatever rate) on every dollar spent in the sale of an item to the consumer... whether you make 500K or 15K... whether you spend $500 or $5... it is not about the person, it is about the dollar(s) spent...

Income tax should be just as blind... and about the dollar earned, not the person, not the boo hoo sob story, not about the buying of votes...

It is not equal treatment to have one person paying 0% or 5% when another is paying 28%... it is not equal treatment either to have specifically designed loopholes for certain groups of people...

Hence.. for true equality in treatment by government under law.. eliminate the progressive code and eliminate the deductions and loopholes... and with the simplification you don't need as huge of a government entity to collect and analyze taxes... and with everyone having a stake in the game (the same stake in % of every dollar), IMHO you would have more public scrutiny over how government spends and does its job

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

The income is taxed.. but the rules are based on circumstances of the persons and their individual situations.. making it about the person... when you eliminate all that complicated bullshit, you take that personalization out of the situation... the more personalization you have, the more you open the door for subjective bullshit exceptions, like we have now

You still haven't explained how it is unequal treatment.

The rules are based on the income, btw, in this scenario.

 

[Care4all]

Unequal treatment under law by government...

Sales tax, is not unequal treatment, discriminatory, nor based on some bullshit subjective concept of fairness... 5% (or whatever rate) on every dollar spent in the sale of an item to the consumer... whether you make 500K or 15K... whether you spend $500 or $5... it is not about the person, it is about the dollar(s) spent...

Income tax should be just as blind... and about the dollar earned, not the person, not the boo hoo sob story, not about the buying of votes...

It is not equal treatment to have one person paying 0% or 5% when another is paying 28%... it is not equal treatment either to have specifically designed loopholes for certain groups of people...

Hence.. for true equality in treatment by government under law.. eliminate the progressive code and eliminate the deductions and loopholes... and with the simplification you don't need as huge of a government entity to collect and analyze taxes... and with everyone having a stake in the game (the same stake in % of every dollar), IMHO you would have more public scrutiny over how government spends and does its job

It is actually the income that is taxed, not the person. I am not sure you actually understand what you are talking about.

Lets just stick with the scenario that dblack proposed: no one pays tax on the first $20,000 they earn and everyone pays the same rate on any additional earnings.

How exactly is that unequal treatment?

The income is taxed.. but the rules are based on circumstances of the persons and their individual situations.. making it about the person... when you eliminate all that complicated bullshit, you take that personalization out of the situation... the more personalization you have, the more you open the door for subjective bullshit exceptions, like we have now

so, in this dream world of tax collection, will businesses have to pay a flat rate on their GROSS sales income as well and get absolutely no deductions for their business expenses Dave? thus taxing their entire gross income and not taxing just their profit, as you wish it to be for us individuals?

 

[DiamondDave]

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

As you know, the Extreme Court has upheld a corporation as a person. Corporations get to deduct their overhead from their gross income. The overhead for a person is the food, clothing and shelter costs for survival. Should the corporate personhood be taxed any different than the personal corporationhood under your equal treatment rationalization? Will corporations be taxed on every dollar they take in under your tax system?

Well... I am for flat rates with zero loopholes on corporate as well... whether it be on profit or income would be an interesting discussion...

 

[DiamondDave]

In the scenario dblack laid out, the progressive system would mean exactly this:

Everyone pays no taxes on their first $20,000 in income.

Everyone pays the same tax rate on any income above $20,000.

How does that support a welfare state? There's no envy involved as everyone's income is treated in exactly the same manner.

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

Are you that ignorant, Ravi.... adjusting the tax floor makes it unequal treatment... the floor changes the bottom line... where someone making 19K pays zero in income taxes of their total... and changing the effective and actual rates on everyone else up the chain... whether you wish to see it that way or not... it is indeed playing favorites..

 

[Ravi]

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

No, you really don't understand what you're talking about. No one is taxed on the first 19K in your scenario. All other income is taxed at the exact same rate for everyone.

There is no inherent inequality in the progressive system. There is inequality in the deduction portion of the tax code.

Are you that ignorant, Ravi.... adjusting the tax floor makes it unequal treatment... the floor changes the bottom line... where someone making 19K pays zero in income taxes of their total... and changing the effective and actual rates on everyone else up the chain... whether you wish to see it that way or not... it is indeed playing favorites..

No, I don't see it. Everyone gets the same exact treatment: no taxes on 19K of your income.

It is exactly like the property tax situation here. Everyone pays the exact same property tax percentage on the assessed value of their house. And everyone is allowed to not pay property taxes on the first $25,000 of the value.

I have never heard anyone claim this was progressive or unfair.

You simply are not thinking.

 

[edthecynic]

No... everyone is not treated in the same manner.. just as they are not now in the current bullshit progressive system...

With a simple 10% rate as an example... Someone making 19K would be taxed at 0%... someone making 30K would be taxed at 3.33%... someone making 100K would be taxed at 8%... someone making 2MIL would be taxed at 9.9%.... THAT is NOT being treated in exactly the same manner

As you know, the Extreme Court has upheld a corporation as a person. Corporations get to deduct their overhead from their gross income. The overhead for a person is the food, clothing and shelter costs for survival. Should the corporate personhood be taxed any different than the personal corporationhood under your equal treatment rationalization? Will corporations be taxed on every dollar they take in under your tax system?

Well... I am for flat rates with zero loopholes on corporate as well... whether it be on profit or income would be an interesting discussion...

The answer of a typical politician!

I find it interesting that you do not need to even discus taxing total personal income, but believing in equal treatment as strongly as you profess to do, you are open to discussion as to whether to tax the corporate personhood's total income or to allow deductions.

 

[DiamondDave]

As you know, the Extreme Court has upheld a corporation as a person. Corporations get to deduct their overhead from their gross income. The overhead for a person is the food, clothing and shelter costs for survival. Should the corporate personhood be taxed any different than the personal corporationhood under your equal treatment rationalization? Will corporations be taxed on every dollar they take in under your tax system?

Well... I am for flat rates with zero loopholes on corporate as well... whether it be on profit or income would be an interesting discussion...

The answer of a typical politician!

I find it interesting that you do not need to even discus taxing total personal income, but believing in equal treatment as strongly as you profess to do, you are open to discussion as to whether to tax the corporate personhood's total income or to allow deductions.

No.. it would be an interesting discussion.. mainly because I do not agree with the SC's ruling on corporations... and do not consider a corporation the same as a person or citizen... and IMHO, it makes it a whole different discussion...