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F-35s jets and S-400 missiles

Daryl Hunt

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UAI show it as an error, but BRU-67,68 (or Scorpion ERU as well) still hold it, until it is dropped by a selective jettison. And if you armed your Mk-83s with the mechanical fuses M904, M905 and MAU-182 Ring and Swivel Assemblies, it can even blast.
Ahhh so you have intimate knowledge of how UAI works, how long have you been an F-35 pilot? You're making shit up, you know it, and everyone knows it.

Just speak with people, it is not a big secret. Sure, officially they will denie it, but isn't wasting PGMs for a terrain denial mission even more stupid?
No, the stupid isn't using dumb bombs for terrain denial it's the notion of using stealth fighters that aren't able to drop them, despite the majority of assets in that area are.

I guess it's also pretty stupid you're a grown man pretending to "speak with people" about some secret capabilities of F-35s flying in Iraq that you clearly cannot source. What are you 12?


Don't forget, that we are discussing about an abstract situation "The Best S-400 Operator Against The Worst F-35 Operator".
Nope. See thread title, it's F-35s versus S-400s. You are the one who will continue to pigeonhole the discussion hoping to get the results you want, I think you're almost at the point of declaring F-35s must be flown by pilots with vision issues and shaky hands.

GPS-jammers are almost immune from Paveway IV strike because of a simple reason - they are covered with S-400 and AAA. To drop the bomb, F-35 needs to came too close to SAM and AAA positions, and a bomb itself is a good target for Tunguskas.
And yes, don't forget that Tunguskas can try to hit your MLRS M-31 rockets as well.
Hah hah the old "immunity" schtick. There is no "too close" since you have no idea how close they can get in a jamming environment, and if GPS jammers are broadcasting they are the targets for HARMs, SDBs, etc. the worse place in a scenario involving F-35s would be something screeching RF nonstop since it'll be geolocated the biggest target.
He must be speaking if it were me piloting that ill fated F-35.

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Sleep Well, I am awake protecting you.​
 

22lcidw

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Nonsense. F-35 uses UAI, any weapon that hasn't been certified and implemented in the UAI wouldn't show as an option at a given station in the cockpit and cannot be delivered.
UAI show it as an error, but BRU-67,68 (or Scorpion ERU as well) still hold it, until it is dropped by a selective jettison. And if you armed your Mk-83s with the mechanical fuses M904, M905 and MAU-182 Ring and Swivel Assemblies, it can even blast.
It's America, bro. A dollar saved is two dollars earned.

You claim about F-35As using unguided bombs in Iraq is complete bullshit. I'd love to see your source on this, you're saying that for some reason with all the 4th gen assets available in Iraq the USAF decided to work around the very strict weapons certification and software requirements of F-35s to use them to drop dumb bombs they weren't designed to drop. It's so stupid it's funny.
Just speak with people, it is not a big secret. Sure, officially they will denie it, but isn't wasting PGMs for a terrain denial mission even more stupid?

Third: The Paveway IV will be almost unguided in a frontal attack against S-400, because if F-35 see and can mark position of S-400, then S-400 clearly see F-35 and can shoot it down. So, only INS, only hardcore.
Fourth: Yes, Brits try to make "SPEAR Cap 3" specially against S-400, but it will be integrated with Block 4 not earlier than in 2024, and, looks like, it will be even less useful than SDB-2.
You're making assumptions about what S-400 in wartime situation with standoff/standin/escort jamming, decoys flying in, antiradiation missiles being launched at radiation sources, about whether they can see stealth aircraft, and assumptions that GPS jammers are immune to attack to prevent Paveway 4 from using GPS, and making assumptions about the utility of Spear that are unfounded. Real world isn't some uncluttered environment where radar
Don't forget, that we are discussing about an abstract situation "The Best S-400 Operator Against The Worst F-35 Operator".
GPS-jammers are almost immune from Paveway IV strike because of a simple reason - they are covered with S-400 and AAA. To drop the bomb, F-35 needs to came too close to SAM and AAA positions, and a bomb itself is a good target for Tunguskas.
And yes, don't forget that Tunguskas can try to hit your MLRS M-31 rockets as well.
There are NO Worst F-35 Pilots. All of them are the cream of the crop much like the F-22. They are handpicked from other fighters. Hate to break it to you but Larry, Mo and Curly won't be running the British Royal Air Force.
I do not believe that. There are pilots better then others.
There are no NEW pilots flying the F-35 ANYWHERE. All are high time pilots which equates to a high degree of skill level. They are hand picked from other Fighter Units. There are NO "WORST" F-35 pilots.
I don't believe that.
 

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UAI show it as an error, but BRU-67,68 (or Scorpion ERU as well) still hold it, until it is dropped by a selective jettison. And if you armed your Mk-83s with the mechanical fuses M904, M905 and MAU-182 Ring and Swivel Assemblies, it can even blast.
Ahhh so you have intimate knowledge of how UAI works, how long have you been an F-35 pilot?
Do you have any experience in the military, aviation or other sophisticated tech development? The safety is our priority, isn't it? Now, tell me, pls, what else can UAI do in "no response from the bomb"situation? The safety protocol must be short, simple and reliable. Can it call "911" and ask for help independently? No, it is a stealth fighter, it must be able to work without any communication at all. To jettison it immediately and independently? No, it can be unsafe. To block it on the BRU? No, it can be unsafe to land with the damaged bomb.
So, the only reasonable safety protocol is "Inform the pilot. Hold the bomb on the BRU untul the pilot's jettison command".
Don't forget, that we are discussing about an abstract situation "The Best S-400 Operator Against The Worst F-35 Operator".
Nope. See thread title, it's F-35s versus S-400s. You are the one who will continue to pigeonhole the discussion hoping to get the results you want, I think you're almost at the point of declaring F-35s must be flown by pilots with vision issues and shaky hands.
It depends from the whole situation. In the situation "All US F-35s vs small isolated group of Nicaraguan separatists and a Chines S-400 battalion in the minimal complectation" S-400 will suck.
In situation "British F-35 (in their real current status) vs Scottish militants and a Russian S-400 battalion in the full complectation, covered with Tinguskas" - F-35s will knee and gobble.

Hah hah the old "immunity" schtick. There is no "too close" since you have no idea how close they can get in a jamming environment, and if GPS jammers are broadcasting they are the targets for HARMs, SDBs, etc. the worse place in a scenario involving F-35s would be something screeching RF nonstop since it'll be geolocated the biggest target.
Ha! May be, I have no idea, but many professionals certainly have. That's why they are searching other ways to crush S-400.
 

Daryl Hunt

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UAI show it as an error, but BRU-67,68 (or Scorpion ERU as well) still hold it, until it is dropped by a selective jettison. And if you armed your Mk-83s with the mechanical fuses M904, M905 and MAU-182 Ring and Swivel Assemblies, it can even blast.
Ahhh so you have intimate knowledge of how UAI works, how long have you been an F-35 pilot?
Do you have any experience in the military, aviation or other sophisticated tech development? The safety is our priority, isn't it? Now, tell me, pls, what else can UAI do in "no response from the bomb"situation? The safety protocol must be short, simple and reliable. Can it call "911" and ask for help independently? No, it is a stealth fighter, it must be able to work without any communication at all. To jettison it immediately and independently? No, it can be unsafe. To block it on the BRU? No, it can be unsafe to land with the damaged bomb.
So, the only reasonable safety protocol is "Inform the pilot. Hold the bomb on the BRU untul the pilot's jettison command".
Don't forget, that we are discussing about an abstract situation "The Best S-400 Operator Against The Worst F-35 Operator".
Nope. See thread title, it's F-35s versus S-400s. You are the one who will continue to pigeonhole the discussion hoping to get the results you want, I think you're almost at the point of declaring F-35s must be flown by pilots with vision issues and shaky hands.
It depends from the whole situation. In the situation "All US F-35s vs small isolated group of Nicaraguan separatists and a Chines S-400 battalion in the minimal complectation" S-400 will suck.
In situation "British F-35 (in their real current status) vs Scottish militants and a Russian S-400 battalion in the full complectation, covered with Tinguskas" - F-35s will knee and gobble.

Hah hah the old "immunity" schtick. There is no "too close" since you have no idea how close they can get in a jamming environment, and if GPS jammers are broadcasting they are the targets for HARMs, SDBs, etc. the worse place in a scenario involving F-35s would be something screeching RF nonstop since it'll be geolocated the biggest target.
Ha! May be, I have no idea, but many professionals certainly have. That's why they are searching other ways to crush S-400.
I don't know if Drainbamage has any real life experience in Aviation or not but I do and on this I mostly agree with him. Now, play that same game on me. The fact remains that the F-35A flies against the S-300 and it's upgraded S-400 on a daily basis in Syria and Iran is proof enough. Yes, they can pick off an occasional F-16 but who can't these days. But the fact remains that there have been times reported by Iran where they are crying about F-35s spying on them inside of Iran that tells us the whole story. The F-35 is NOT invisible to visuals and a Goat Herder can identify one clearly by sight. But that same Goat Herder can't knock it down by throwing Goat Dung at it.

So how about slowing down on that Goat Dung slinging. It's really getting messy.
 

Daryl Hunt

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DrainBamage

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Do you have any experience in the military, aviation or other sophisticated tech development?
Yes.

The safety is our priority, isn't it? Now, tell me, pls, what else can UAI do in "no response from the bomb"situation? The safety protocol must be short, simple and reliable. Can it call "911" and ask for help independently? No, it is a stealth fighter, it must be able to work without any communication at all. To jettison it immediately and independently? No, it can be unsafe. To block it on the BRU? No, it can be unsafe to land with the damaged bomb.
So, the only reasonable safety protocol is "Inform the pilot. Hold the bomb on the BRU untul the pilot's jettison command"
In other words you have a bunch of assumptions about how UAI works, no real experience with it, yet are stating as fact that F-35s are using uncertified dumb bombs in Iraq.

Again, where is your source for F-35s dropping unguided weapons in Iraq?


It depends from the whole situation. In the situation "All US F-35s vs small isolated group of Nicaraguan separatists and a Chines S-400 battalion in the minimal complectation" S-400 will suck.
In situation "British F-35 (in their real current status) vs Scottish militants and a Russian S-400 battalion in the full complectation, covered with Tinguskas" - F-35s will knee and gobble.
Unrealistic scenarios aren't interesting to me, why not ponder on F-35s versus dragons from Game of Thrones too?


Ha! May be, I have no idea, but many professionals certainly have. That's why they are searching other ways to crush S-400.
So you admit you have no idea about something you are using as the cornerstone of your argument. Why am I not surprised?
 

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Do you really think, that those photos of the burning Turkish vechicles were made from the Syrian F-35s?
Destroyed by Scottish militants?

That seems to be your standard ace-in-the-hole demon around here? They just pop up out of nowhere and tip the scales!
 

Silver Cat

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Really?

The safety is our priority, isn't it? Now, tell me, pls, what else can UAI do in "no response from the bomb"situation? The safety protocol must be short, simple and reliable. Can it call "911" and ask for help independently? No, it is a stealth fighter, it must be able to work without any communication at all. To jettison it immediately and independently? No, it can be unsafe. To block it on the BRU? No, it can be unsafe to land with the damaged bomb.
So, the only reasonable safety protocol is "Inform the pilot. Hold the bomb on the BRU untul the pilot's jettison command"
In other words you have a bunch of assumptions about how UAI works, no real experience with it, yet are stating as fact that F-35s are using uncertified dumb bombs in Iraq.
In other words you can't even imagine any reasonable alternative safety protocol for the " unresponding bomb" situation, can you? And do you really think, that the wasting $2.8M ordnance just to clear a little forest is a good idea?

Twitter

Again, where is your source for F-35s dropping unguided weapons in Iraq?
How many US F-35s pilots said you tete a tete that they never use unguided weapons in Iraq?


Unrealistic scenarios aren't interesting to me, why not ponder on F-35s versus dragons from Game of Thrones too?
"A lonely F-35 vs a lonely S-400" is an unrealistic scenario anyway. It is a simplification, but any model is a simplification, it is why the model can be useful at all.


Ha! May be, I have no idea, but many professionals certainly have. That's why they are searching other ways to crush S-400.
So you admit you have no idea about something you are using as the cornerstone of your argument. Why am I not surprised?
[/QUOTE]
I said "may be".
Do you have any idea why S-400 is often named as "A2/AD system"?
 

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Do you really think, that those photos of the burning Turkish vechicles were made from the Syrian F-35s?
Destroyed by Scottish militants?
No. Destroyed by Syrian aviation.


That seems to be your standard ace-in-the-hole demon around here? They just pop up out of nowhere and tip the scales!
Don't you think, that there can be a lot of Scottish militants in Scotland? And 70 clicks from HMNB Clyde is a pretty deep in the Scottish territory. And yes, don't forget, pls that the green men commander can send few Tunguskas to meet your MLRSs at the march - PHA have many spies in Scotland, but FSA have many spies in England, too.
 

DrainBamage

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In other words you can't even imagine any reasonable alternative safety protocol for the " unresponding bomb" situation, can you? And do you really think, that the wasting $2.8M ordnance just to clear a little forest is a good idea?
1. So you're basically confirming you're just making assumptions about how UAI works when stating it's easy to just strap any uncertified bomb on there right?
2. It has nothing to do with how smart it is to drop smart weapons to clear a forest, and more to do with using F-35s to drop bombs they don't carry.


Ahh the Qanus Island bombing. Those were PGMs, look at the exact dispersion. Here are some press releases on it:

USAF F-35As and F-15Es Flatten ISIS "Infested" Island In Iraq With 80K Pounds Of Bombs (Updated)
The F-15Es appeared to be carrying loads of at least five 2,000-pound class GBU-31/B Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) GPS-guided bombs. The Joint Strike Fighters had their external wingtip rails for the AIM-9X Sidewinder fitted, but did not appear to be carrying any of those air-to-air missiles. They were not carrying any other external ordnance, suggesting that they were likely each carrying two additional GBU-31/Bs.

Here is a picture of an F-15E being loaded for the strike, clearly those are JDAMs.


So what we've arrived at here is that you "guessed" that these must be unguided bombs, with absolutely zero evidence, and then came in here and declared F-35s are delivering unguided munitions. That is foolish.


"A lonely F-35 vs a lonely S-400" is an unrealistic scenario anyway. It is a simplification, but any model is a simplification, it is why the model can be useful at all.
Yes, that is another one. Why not propose a realistic one?


Do you have any idea why S-400 is often named as "A2/AD system"?
Yes.
 

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1. So you're basically confirming you're just making assumptions about how UAI works when stating it's easy to just strap any uncertified bomb on there right?
No. I said, that there is no, and couldn't be, any alternative safety protocol for the "unresponding bomb" situation.
And, you don't have even a spark of idea, what alternative security protocol could be there.


2. It has nothing to do with how smart it is to drop smart weapons to clear a forest, and more to do with using F-35s to drop bombs they don't carry.
F-35s can carry and even drop the unguided bombs. And you don't know any F-35 pilot, who claim the opposite, do you?

"A lonely F-35 vs a lonely S-400" is an unrealistic scenario anyway. It is a simplification, but any model is a simplification, it is why the model can be useful at all.
Yes, that is another one. Why not propose a realistic one?
Because reality is much more complicated. Ok. There are "Defender-2020" drills. General (unrealistic, too) conception is rather simple: "Russia invades Baltic states, European and American allies fight Russia and defend Baltic. There is Kaliningrad's region with Russian A2/AD systems (including five regiments of S-400 and one regiment of S-300V4). To be able to protect Spratslands, we need to crush the IADS first." The question is simple: "Can European NATO members (without American help) crush that systems with their airforces, or they have to find an alternative way?"
 

Daryl Hunt

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1. So you're basically confirming you're just making assumptions about how UAI works when stating it's easy to just strap any uncertified bomb on there right?
No. I said, that there is no, and couldn't be, any alternative safety protocol for the "unresponding bomb" situation.
And, you don't have even a spark of idea, what alternative security protocol could be there.


2. It has nothing to do with how smart it is to drop smart weapons to clear a forest, and more to do with using F-35s to drop bombs they don't carry.
F-35s can carry and even drop the unguided bombs. And you don't know any F-35 pilot, who claim the opposite, do you?

"A lonely F-35 vs a lonely S-400" is an unrealistic scenario anyway. It is a simplification, but any model is a simplification, it is why the model can be useful at all.
Yes, that is another one. Why not propose a realistic one?
Because reality is much more complicated. Ok. There are "Defender-2020" drills. General (unrealistic, too) conception is rather simple: "Russia invades Baltic states, European and American allies fight Russia and defend Baltic. There is Kaliningrad's region with Russian A2/AD systems (including five regiments of S-400 and one regiment of S-300V4). To be able to protect Spratslands, we need to crush the IADS first." The question is simple: "Can European NATO members (without American help) crush that systems with their airforces, or they have to find an alternative way?"
Do you know the difference between a dumb bomb sand a JDAM? Please tell us, we all want to know.
 

DrainBamage

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No. I said, that there is no, and couldn't be, any alternative safety protocol for the "unresponding bomb" situation.
And, you don't have even a spark of idea, what alternative security protocol could be there.
Me not having an idea is different than you not having any idea then claiming something can be done when you have no idea. If you haven't flown in an F-35 that uses UAI then all you're doing is speculating, so you're hilariously using speculation to back up your idiotic claim that the F-35 has been using dumb bombs to clear forests in Iraq.


F-35s can carry and even drop the unguided bombs. And you don't know any F-35 pilot, who claim the opposite, do you?
No, they can't. You're making something up and it's funny to watch. I can look at a list of weapons that have been certified to carry on F-35 with each block software/hardware release and see there are no unguided bombs. I can look at the projected schedule for additional weapons integration and see no unguided bombs.

So far the evidence you've presented is that you didn't understand what was going in that video of Qanus island, made some idiotic assumptions that were quickly proven false, and are now desperately trying to stay afloat in an argument you can't win.


Because reality is much more complicated. Ok. There are "Defender-2020" drills. General (unrealistic, too) conception is rather simple: "Russia invades Baltic states, European and American allies fight Russia and defend Baltic. There is Kaliningrad's region with Russian A2/AD systems (including five regiments of S-400 and one regiment of S-300V4). To be able to protect Spratslands, we need to crush the IADS first." The question is simple: "Can European NATO members (without American help) crush that systems with their airforces, or they have to find an alternative way?"
USA is a member of NATO, why wouldn't they help?
 

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USA is a member of NATO, why wouldn't they help?
May be USA are more interested in fighting China, than in the defending useless Spratslands. May be USA are not satisfied with the current level of European defence. May be something else.
One thing, if Europeans can defend themselves independently, the different thing if Europe needs to pay much more for protection.
 

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Daryl Hunt

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Do you know the difference between a dumb bomb sand a JDAM? Please tell us, we all want to know.
Joint Direct Attack Munition - Wikipedia
I didn't ask for a cut and paste or a Wiki link. I asked you to define the difference in your own words. I can.
Orly? If so - tell us about how exactly UAI see Mk83, and what is the difference with a damaged GBU-16 or 32?
Then you don't know. Let me explain. Take any dumb bomb of a decent size, say 500 lb or bigger. Add fins and a guidance nose cone and, Presto, you just made a JDAM. Oh, I know, they have gotten a bit more sexy lately but at one time, we had tons of these free fall dumb bombs and a kit was offered to cheaply convert them to JDAMs. Unlike you, I don't need to look it up. I spent three years working in a Munitions Squadron as a Manager around the Buffs. The Buff carried both the JDAM and the Dumb Bomb along with a whole bunch of other nasty weapons. We didn't call them JDAMs back then. The systems were a bit more crude and less reliable. But in 1995, the new system was introduced after I retired and things changed big time.

The MK-82 and MK-83 gets a GBU designator when the kit is installed. The Big 1000 and 2000 lb BLUs also get changed to the GBU designator.

Now for the range. From level flight at subsonic speeds, they have about a 15 mile average range for the 500lbers. Of course, the bigger ones have shorter ranges. They could be launched from any angle, any attitude including a bird doing evasive action. Once released, they were completely independent. Now unless you can jam the JDAMs internal guidance, it's going where it was aimed after release. One Fighter can drop multiple JDAMS to multiple targets in a matter of seconds.

Now, let's look at a method used in the Venerable F-4 doing Nuke duty. If a F-4 were to drop his nuke payload on a target he would have to get too close. Let's face it, 5 miles is just too damned close with something that big. So they developed a Bomb Toss for the Dumb Nuke. The Fighter went to Supersonic Speed, Put it into a climb pulling some mighty impressive Gs and then released the bomb. We are talking about a bomb about the size of 4 55 gallon barrels welded end to end. He could get about 15 miles out of that toss. After release, the climb would drop him below mach, he would finish the split S and get back on the gas and get the hell out of there. And this was all done at low altitude where he was hard to pickup. Of course, this sonic booms wouldn't exactly hide him. But if you heard the boom, it was too late anyway. I won't say where the originating position was nor where the target was but let's say it scared the living hell out of the Russians during the cold war and the F-111 wasn't the only Nuke Armed Fighter.

Now, let's allow you to have your lone S-400 and I get my Lone F-35A. No nukes allowed. I get one JDAM and you get one of your best Missiles. We each get one shot. I go up to 40K, put the bird up to just under Mach, do a reverse Split S and launch while 40 to 50 miles away. I am too slow for my skin to heat up enough for your IRs until AFTER the bomb release. You finally are able to pick me up and maybe get a lock when my doors come open for that 1 to 2 seconds. You fire. The Doors close and my F-35 just went to Mach 1.6. For a few miles, your IR will light up. But you just lost your lock. Oh, you can still track for a few minutes but the lock is lost. In the first few minutes of flight of your Missile, it's going to have to rely on your S-400 site to guide it. Maybe you can do it, maybe you can't. But there are more than a few things that you have to have right to deliver that missile on target. If any of those things go wrong, your missile won't hit my F-35.

Meanwhile, the JDAM isn't attached to any outside guidance. No Radar, No IR, nothing. Once it's locked on, it has the Location locked in and using global positioning to guide it internally. The only thing you can do is get your Radar Vehicles shut down, cleaned up and get them moved real fast. That 500lber is going to hit within just a few feet of where it was aimed at. While not as slick as a Tomahawk, the JDAM is pretty damned fool proof. You are going to lose at least part of your S-400 system and be knocked out of business until you bring in replacement trucks. You also might (if you are very lucky and should have bought a lottery ticket) take out the F-35. The normal scenario is for you to lose the use of your S-400 for a few days and personnel and the worst case is the loss of the F-35 and you still lose the use of your S-400. Under the normal operation, your cost will be in the millions along with a few lives against about 27K+ Dollars for the JDAM including the cost of the 500lber dumb bomb.

Tell you what, I'll give you 4 S-400 systems and you give me 4 JDAMS and only one F-35A. Under normal operation, yo still won't get the F-35 but he's going to put 3 of your 4 S-400 sites out of operation. Nothing is perfect and he will probably miss one. But what he did was he opened up a huge corridor for Gen 4 fighters which was his job all along. The fact he can do other things isn't going to be a factor at first. It's the fact that he is specifically designed to take out Missile Sites. And to him, a S-400 is just another missile site.

Do it the way that's been practiced over and over again and your F-35 comes home. And one thing that should be driven into ANY High time Fighter Pilot is to do it right the first time. When that high time Fighter Pilot sits his ass into the F-35, he just has to get used to his new ride. There won't be any low time fighter pilots sitting his ass in that F-35 and I don't care what country is flying them. He's going to have a ton of time on something else like a F-16, F-18, Mig-29 or a host of other Multiroled fighters. He'll have to learn some new tactics but most of what he has already learned and practiced will still apply.

You can have the highest quality crew manning your S-400 system but even they can't make it any better than it already is. Your Scenario is busted.
 

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