F-35s jets and S-400 missiles

[ChinSwee]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

 

[MAGAman]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

Range is important, but not the only factor.

ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) vs ECCM (Electronic Counter-Counter Measures) is far more important.

Tactics, stealth, and cyber-attacks also factor highly.

 

[ABikerSailor]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

You're right, jets can't fire missiles that far, but they really don't need to. All they really have to do is send in radar jammers in ahead of the jets doing the attack and they can stop the missiles.

When I was in, the preferred airframe was the EA6B Prowler. Was easily spotted on the flight deck because it looked like an Intruder, but the tail section had a huge bulge on the top, and there were 4 crew members in the Prowler, where the Intruder only had 2.

 

[DrainBamage]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

You know the earth curves right?

Sure it's a system of systems where tracking/targeting radar might be in a different location but it's not like you just build a missile that can fly 400 kilometers and hit planes that far away that you can't even see because they are below the radar horizon. Also, the max range of missiles usually has a very small hit probability, it's like the max speed/range of aircraft more theoretical than practical.

 

[Silver Cat]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

Range is important, but not the only factor.

ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) vs ECCM (Electronic Counter-Counter Measures) is far more important.

Tactics, stealth, and cyber-attacks also factor highly.

And the best way to crush enemy's AAD is to send your tanks against it. Sure, there is no and can not be any "absolutely invincible defence". The only question is how much resourses you need to crush it. And from this point of view S-400 can be very good acquisition.

 

[ABikerSailor]

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 kilometers away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 kilometers away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets.

Range is important, but not the only factor.

ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) vs ECCM (Electronic Counter-Counter Measures) is far more important.

Tactics, stealth, and cyber-attacks also factor highly.

And the best way to crush enemy's AAD is to send your tanks against it. Sure, there is no and can not be any "absolutely invincible defence". The only question is how much resourses you need to crush it. And from this point of view S-400 can be very good acquisition.

Actually, the best way to take out AAD is to send in radar jamming aircraft, as well as aircraft to target said installation.

 

[whitehall]

The claim is that standard U.S. fighter planes have no defense against old crappy Russian surplus SAM's? How does this kind of propaganda end up on a U.S. discussion forum?

 

[DrainBamage]

And the best way to crush enemy's AAD is to send your tanks against it.

Nonsense. Weapons for SEAD/DEAD have advanced right along with everything else and are far more capable today than even a decade ago.

Latest HARM has a millimeter-wave seeker so turning off a radar is no longer a defense against the anti-radiation missile, it'll still look for anything that matches the image of an IDADS component.

There are far more standoff weapons options available now for use against IADS elements from a distance, JSOW, SDB, etc. so aircraft can lob relatively inexpensive glide weapons from 40 miles+ distance.

USAF has thousands of MALD/MALD-J to spoof as attacking aircraft to reveal radar locations and bleed missile batteries of expensive rounds.

Pilots say in exercises an F-35 can take out a ground radiation source with a JDAM faster than three F-16J Wild Weasels with HARMs because it's sensors can geolocate radiation sources, it has 360 electro-optical coverage to see launches, and it's radar can find targets through the clouds with SAR.

There is no IADS on earth that can withstand a determined long-term assault by USA, it's just a matter of time before the pieces get whittled down and the entire system snowballs in degradation.

 

[Scamp]

How are S-400's against low flying cruise missiles?

 

[Silver Cat]

How are S-400's against low flying cruise missiles?

Who knows? Russians say that good enough against CM at 5 m and higher.
It highly depends on terrain type.

 

[Silver Cat]

And the best way to crush enemy's AAD is to send your tanks against it.

Nonsense. Weapons for SEAD/DEAD have advanced right along with everything else and are far more capable today than even a decade ago.

Latest HARM has a millimeter-wave seeker so turning off a radar is no longer a defense against the anti-radiation missile, it'll still look for anything that matches the image of an IDADS component.

There are far more standoff weapons options available now for use against IADS elements from a distance, JSOW, SDB, etc. so aircraft can lob relatively inexpensive glide weapons from 40 miles+ distance.

USAF has thousands of MALD/MALD-J to spoof as attacking aircraft to reveal radar locations and bleed missile batteries of expensive rounds.

Pilots say in exercises an F-35 can take out a ground radiation source with a JDAM faster than three F-16J Wild Weasels with HARMs because it's sensors can geolocate radiation sources, it has 360 electro-optical coverage to see launches, and it's radar can find targets through the clouds with SAR.

There is no IADS on earth that can withstand a determined long-term assault by USA, it's just a matter of time before the pieces get whittled down and the entire system snowballs in degradation.

Sure. There is no IADS on Earth that can withstand a determined long-term assault by US Air Force, because United States are rich and powerful. There is no even well prepared, deep layered anti-tank defence that can withstand a deteremined long-term assault by american tanks.
But sometimes (pretty frequently) it is much better to use aviation against anti-tank defence, and tanks against IADS.
Duel situations (like isolated F-35 vs isolated S-400) are rather rare, and can arise in very uncommon and wierd circumstances.
So, lets play the game.
Once upon a time, in year of our Lord 2022, in the cursed Kingdom a civil war was started. Two English Princes - Philip and Henry are fighting each other for the throne, IRA and FSA are fighting for the freedom of Ireland and Scotland (the latter is openly supported by EU).
PHA have half of British tanks (95) near half of infantry, all (15) F-35B, and you as a military advisor.
HMNB Clyde with two nuclear Vanguard-class submarines was captured by FSA irregular battalion and now is guarded by unknown (obviously unofficial Russian) full S-400 battalion, including, of course, SA-22 for self-defence, L-band radars and passive sensors for stealth detection.
Prince Henry ask your advice - "How can we recapture this base?"
What would you preffer - to send 15 F-35B in a frontal attack (IMHO it will be a suicide mission), or to send few infantry regiments with 95 Challengers? (You don't have enough money to send both of them).

 

[DrainBamage]

But sometimes (pretty frequently) it is much better to use aviation against anti-tank defence, and tanks against IADS.

Nope. Tanks are always best used after you control the skies over them.

Prince Henry ask your advice - "How can we recapture this base?"
What would you preffer - to send 15 F-35B in a frontal attack (IMHO it will be a suicide mission), or to send few infantry regiments with 95 Challengers? (You don't have enough money to send both of them).

Absurd false dichotomy that has no bearing on the decision to take out IADS with aircraft first.

 

[Silver Cat]

But sometimes (pretty frequently) it is much better to use aviation against anti-tank defence, and tanks against IADS.

Nope. Tanks are always best used after you control the skies over them.

Ok. So, just show us how you will destroy the S-400 battalion with 15 F-35B only.

Prince Henry ask your advice - "How can we recapture this base?"
What would you preffer - to send 15 F-35B in a frontal attack (IMHO it will be a suicide mission), or to send few infantry regiments with 95 Challengers? (You don't have enough money to send both of them).

Absurd false dichotomy that has no bearing on the decision to take out IADS with aircraft first.

So, what will be your advice? "Call Septics, and ask them to solve your problem?"

 

[DrainBamage]

Ok. So, just show us how you will destroy the S-400 battalion with 15 F-35B only.

Send MALD-Js to light them up, then prosecute with SDB2 and JSOW.

So, what will be your advice? "Call Septics, and ask them to solve your problem?"

I'd rather they call the Bureau of Ridiculous Nonsensical Military Scenarios. BRNM is a great outfit.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Ok. So, just show us how you will destroy the S-400 battalion with 15 F-35B only.

Send MALD-Js to light them up, then prosecute with SDB2 and JSOW.

So, what will be your advice? "Call Septics, and ask them to solve your problem?"

I'd rather they call the Bureau of Ridiculous Nonsensical Military Scenarios. BRNM is a great outfit.

Hey, watch it. I once did a TDY to that outfit.

 

[Silver Cat]

Ok. So, just show us how you will destroy the S-400 battalion with 15 F-35B only.

Send MALD-Js to light them up, then prosecute with SDB2 and JSOW.

Good plan. For a few little exeptions.
First and most important - RAF don't have anything from this stuff.
Second. MALD-J are more jamming, their recon possibility is rather low. Range of S-400 is near 400 clicks, range for MALD-J - near 475 clicks, so, you must be very careful using it to recon positions of S-400.
Third. F-35B can't bear JSOW at all, and it can bear only 2x2 SDBs in its wealons bays.
Forth: Operational range of both SBDs and JSOW is not more than 110 clicks, that is obviously inside of S-400's operational range, so, there are good chances that the most of your F-35B will be shoot down even before they will open their bays.
Fifth: SDBs are good targets for Tunguska's, so 2x2x15=60 SDBs (even if they were launched) were intercepted.

So, what will be your advice? "Call Septics, and ask them to solve your problem?"

I'd rather they call the Bureau of Ridiculous Nonsensical Military Scenarios. BRNM is a great outfit.

Sure. I said, that the duel scenarios like "isolated S-400 battalion" vs "isolated squadron of F-35B" are really uncommon and even weird.
But it is not me, who suggested to send 15 almost unarmed F-35B in the frontal attack against fully equipped and covered S-400 battalion.
As Pierre Bosquet said:
«C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la guerre: c’est de la folie»

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Ok. So, just show us how you will destroy the S-400 battalion with 15 F-35B only.

Send MALD-Js to light them up, then prosecute with SDB2 and JSOW.

Good plan. For a few little exeptions.
First and most important - RAF don't have anything from this stuff.
Second. MALD-J are more jamming, their recon possibility is rather low. Range of S-400 is near 400 clicks, range for MALD-J - near 475 clicks, so, you must be very careful using it to recon positions of S-400.
Third. F-35B can't bear JSOW at all, and it can bear only 2x2 SDBs in its wealons bays.
Forth: Operational range of both SBDs and JSOW is not more than 110 clicks, that is obviously inside of S-400's operational range, so, there are good chances that the most of your F-35B will be shoot down even before they will open their bays.
Fifth: SDBs are good targets for Tunguska's, so 2x2x15=60 SDBs (even if they were launched) were intercepted.

So, what will be your advice? "Call Septics, and ask them to solve your problem?"

I'd rather they call the Bureau of Ridiculous Nonsensical Military Scenarios. BRNM is a great outfit.

Sure. I said, that the duel scenarios like "isolated S-400 battalion" vs "isolated squadron of F-35B" are really uncommon and even weird.
But it is not me, who suggested to send 15 almost unarmed F-35B in the frontal attack against fully equipped and covered S-400 battalion.
As Pierre Bosquet said:
«C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la guerre: c’est de la folie»

You are not giving the F-35B the benefit of it's cross section. Yes, the S-400 has that kind of range but that's against a 3rd or regular 4th gen bomber. Fighters (even 4th gen) will be harder to see and harder to hit. And 5th gen (real ones not fake ones) will even get closer before detected and then be even harder to hit. Since both are "Sooper Secrit" the only way to know is for the Russians and the US to do battle and I don't see that happening anytime soon without a lot of debrea outside my window.

 

[Silver Cat]

Ok. So, just show us how you will destroy the S-400 battalion with 15 F-35B only.

Send MALD-Js to light them up, then prosecute with SDB2 and JSOW.

Good plan. For a few little exeptions.
First and most important - RAF don't have anything from this stuff.
Second. MALD-J are more jamming, their recon possibility is rather low. Range of S-400 is near 400 clicks, range for MALD-J - near 475 clicks, so, you must be very careful using it to recon positions of S-400.
Third. F-35B can't bear JSOW at all, and it can bear only 2x2 SDBs in its wealons bays.
Forth: Operational range of both SBDs and JSOW is not more than 110 clicks, that is obviously inside of S-400's operational range, so, there are good chances that the most of your F-35B will be shoot down even before they will open their bays.
Fifth: SDBs are good targets for Tunguska's, so 2x2x15=60 SDBs (even if they were launched) were intercepted.

So, what will be your advice? "Call Septics, and ask them to solve your problem?"

I'd rather they call the Bureau of Ridiculous Nonsensical Military Scenarios. BRNM is a great outfit.

Sure. I said, that the duel scenarios like "isolated S-400 battalion" vs "isolated squadron of F-35B" are really uncommon and even weird.
But it is not me, who suggested to send 15 almost unarmed F-35B in the frontal attack against fully equipped and covered S-400 battalion.
As Pierre Bosquet said:
«C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la guerre: c’est de la folie»

You are not giving the F-35B the benefit of it's cross section. Yes, the S-400 has that kind of range but that's against a 3rd or regular 4th gen bomber. Fighters (even 4th gen) will be harder to see and harder to hit. And 5th gen (real ones not fake ones) will even get closer before detected and then be even harder to hit. Since both are "Sooper Secrit" the only way to know is for the Russians and the US to do battle and I don't see that happening anytime soon without a lot of debrea outside my window.

Physics is not secret. F-35 and F-22 are "stealth" only for X-band radars. L-band (UNF) -radars see them quite well.

"The Protivnik-GE is an anti-stealth UHF radar with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range.[27]The Moscow-1 passive sensor is 2 1⁄2 times more effective than the Protivnik, with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range[28] Orion[29] for a target-designation on-the-air defence system, and the Avtobaza-M[30] and Orion+ Avtobaza adds high-precision detection. The 1RL220BE[20][31] versions were reportedly used for jamming.[32] "

S-400 missile system - Wikipedia

And British F-35B can use only unguided bombs and external pod gun against ground targets.

Are you still sure, that you want to send them, and it will not be a suicidal mission?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Ok. So, just show us how you will destroy the S-400 battalion with 15 F-35B only.

Send MALD-Js to light them up, then prosecute with SDB2 and JSOW.

Good plan. For a few little exeptions.
First and most important - RAF don't have anything from this stuff.
Second. MALD-J are more jamming, their recon possibility is rather low. Range of S-400 is near 400 clicks, range for MALD-J - near 475 clicks, so, you must be very careful using it to recon positions of S-400.
Third. F-35B can't bear JSOW at all, and it can bear only 2x2 SDBs in its wealons bays.
Forth: Operational range of both SBDs and JSOW is not more than 110 clicks, that is obviously inside of S-400's operational range, so, there are good chances that the most of your F-35B will be shoot down even before they will open their bays.
Fifth: SDBs are good targets for Tunguska's, so 2x2x15=60 SDBs (even if they were launched) were intercepted.

So, what will be your advice? "Call Septics, and ask them to solve your problem?"

I'd rather they call the Bureau of Ridiculous Nonsensical Military Scenarios. BRNM is a great outfit.

Sure. I said, that the duel scenarios like "isolated S-400 battalion" vs "isolated squadron of F-35B" are really uncommon and even weird.
But it is not me, who suggested to send 15 almost unarmed F-35B in the frontal attack against fully equipped and covered S-400 battalion.
As Pierre Bosquet said:
«C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la guerre: c’est de la folie»

You are not giving the F-35B the benefit of it's cross section. Yes, the S-400 has that kind of range but that's against a 3rd or regular 4th gen bomber. Fighters (even 4th gen) will be harder to see and harder to hit. And 5th gen (real ones not fake ones) will even get closer before detected and then be even harder to hit. Since both are "Sooper Secrit" the only way to know is for the Russians and the US to do battle and I don't see that happening anytime soon without a lot of debrea outside my window.

Physics is not secret. F-35 and F-22 are "stealth" only for X-band radars. L-band (UNF) -radars see them quite well.

"The Protivnik-GE is an anti-stealth UHF radar with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range.[27]The Moscow-1 passive sensor is 2 1⁄2 times more effective than the Protivnik, with a 400-kilometre (250 mi) range[28] Orion[29] for a target-designation on-the-air defence system, and the Avtobaza-M[30] and Orion+ Avtobaza adds high-precision detection. The 1RL220BE[20][31] versions were reportedly used for jamming.[32] "

S-400 missile system - Wikipedia

And British F-35B can use only unguided bombs and external pod gun against ground targets.

Are you still sure, that you want to send them, and it will not be a suicidal mission?

Yes, use Wiki for all secrit information. Newsflash: The only radar that is affective at that range is low band and you can't use low band to target much less lock on with. UHF, no matter how you try and use it, is NOT low band. Now, unless the Russians have rescinded the laws of Physics. Wiki can be written and edited by anyone. I can do that myself. I can make it read anything I wish it to read. I just don't feel the need to correct it. Better for people like you to believe in a fairy tale.

 

[Silver Cat]

Yes, use Wiki for all secrit information. Newsflash: The only radar that is affective at that range is low band and you can't use low band to target much less lock on with. UHF, no matter how you try and use it, is NOT low band. Now, unless the Russians have rescinded the laws of Physics. Wiki can be written and edited by anyone. I can do that myself. I can make it read anything I wish it to read. I just don't feel the need to correct it. Better for people like you to believe in a fairy tale.

No problem. It is not that I suggest you to believe Australians, but Carlo Kopp is rather clever and well informed guy. This report is a bit obsolet, but you can find it interesting.

http://www+++.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html


(delete pluses)
But anyway, are you still sure, that sending F-35B with unguided bombs against the well prepared air defence is a good idea?