Evolution Starts with Lucy

[scruffy]

Embarrassing lie.

lol

I'm pretty sure humans evolved in parallel. There are bunches of humans just like there are bunches of monkeys.

The Hox genes are about as close as we get to defining what a species is. Hox genes are the body plan. Like, muscle and bone structure that allows us to walk upright.

What we find is these genes are organized in clusters, heavily conserved within clusters but not so conserved between clusters. However there are very notable exceptions, a famous one is RHOX-F2 in monkeys. One end of is highly conserved, and the other end varies greatly. It seems to be mutating preferentially at one end.

Evolutionary Conservation of Regulatory Elements in Vertebrate Hox Gene Clusters - PMC

Comparisons of DNA sequences among evolutionarily distantly related genomes permit identification of conserved functional regions in noncoding DNA. Hox genes are highly conserved in vertebrates, occur in clusters, and are uninterrupted by other ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hox genes code for proteins that bind to other genes and regulate them. They turn the other genes on and off at specific times. For instance how long should a bone grow? A normal human ulna or radius is maybe 12", it grows till it stops. When the Hox gene stops making protein the bone stops growing.

In the case of the vertebral cage and spinal cord there are "segments", and there the dynamics are different - segments are examples of the limit cycles they talk about in the paper in the previous post. So in this case there must be damping on the cycle because it stops eventually, our body structure grows little tailbones before the segmentation stops completely.

There are chemical gradients that control the gene and transcription dynamics. During development a cell reads these gradients to find out who it is and where it is relative to the rest of the body plan. As development proceeds the gradients get more localized. The "shape" that occurs in the meantime influences subsequent development. If you mess with gradients or mutate one of the Hox genes weird things happen to the body plan, like you get frogs with two heads and stuff like that.

In the human rib cage, how does a developing embryo know to place the heart "here", between the lungs and at a more or less well defined vertebral segment? At some point a stem cell divides and one of the progeny becomes a heart. The timing between that, and the growth of the spinal column, is a result of Hox gene dynamics.

The Hox genes get re-used in different ways once the heart cell is defined. In humans there's only about 40 known Hox genes, but 2^40 is a very large number for combinatorial dynamics. Hox stands for "homeobox" which is a conserved sequence of about 60 amino acids that binds to DNA. You can see lots of Hox gene sequences here:

Request Rejected

and the description of the database is here:

HOX Pro: a specialized database for clusters and networks of homeobox genes - PMC

It is now clear that the homeobox motif is well conserved across metazoan phyla. It has been established experimentally that a subset of genes containing this motif plays key roles in the orchestration of gene expression during development. Auto- ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[toobfreak]

Molecules of all kinds occur naturally in the vastness of outer space. Yes, it's quite miraculous. Thoroughly amazing.

Molecules are simply the natural result of how more basic matter like elements tend to organize themselves to higher and higher levels that tend to be useful and interactive given enough time.

Whoa there, partner. Who's rejecting anything? We're discovering how God works. That's not rejection, it's quite the opposite.

All you are pointing out is that at least some of this we can understand and explain, and it all doesn't have to be mystical.

 

[scruffy]

And similarly, humans have Sox genes that are involved in defining sex and the nervous system, there's about 20 of those that bind to DNA in a different way, they call it the HMG box. Same story, transcriptional regulation.

Sox Genes - Transcriptional Control of Neural Crest Development - NCBI Bookshelf

HMG is "high mobility group".

SOX gene family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It binds to the DNA in approximately this place:

 

[scruffy]

Molecules are simply the natural result of how more basic matter like elements tend to organize themselves to higher and higher levels that tend to be useful and interactive given enough time.

Yes. Higher and higher levels. That's what combinatorics is. Just to give you an idea of how significant it is, consider this: a 200x200 or 160x240 image is considered optimal for face recognition. It's large enough to capture "enough" detail so a machine can read it, and small enough so you can process images in real time without sucking up too many computing resources.

If you're doing full color it's RGB, so there's about 40,000 pixels in the image, at 24 bits each, so that's a grand total of about a million bits. So in 1 million bits we can capture all the permutations of the human face.

On the other hand 2^40 is about a trillion bits. A million million. So with 40 genes we have a million times more variation than there are human faces.

All you are pointing out is that at least some of this we can understand and explain, and it all doesn't have to be mystical.

Yes, thank you. I try. Numbers are hard for some reason. One of the important things about combinatorics is probabilities add when there are independent trials. Like, if you roll a dice your probability of getting a 1 is 1/6. But if you roll six dice your probability of getting at least one 1 goes up. If you roll 60 dice it's "almost certain" there will be at least one 1.

Even if the odds of two water molecules reacting is 1/2^40, there are about 10^46 water molecules on earth so the chances of at least one reaction taking place approaches 100%. It is "virtually certain" a reaction will take place.

There are about 40 trillion cells in the human body. 40x10^12. And there are about 5 billion people on earth (5x10^9). Multiplying we have about 2x10^23. That means a random mutation with a probability of 10^-18 is "almost certain" to occur at least once. If the odds are one in a billion billion the mutation is sure to occur at least once. If you have a rare birth defect with a probability of one in a billion you can expect to see it about 4 times in a generation.

 

[JoeB131]

If you count properly the growth of humans, it comes back to 8 people about 4,500 years ago. So, yes. For 2nd graders who can count, you would know.

Um, brings me back to my point. Those people were all related. It means any children they produced would have been first cousins and they'd be ******* their cousins. Any children they produced would all be first cousins once again, as well as second cousins.

There'd be so much inbreeding going on they'd reach a genetic dead end

This is Charles II of Spain. Because of severe inbreeding in his ancestry, he looked like this. His line died out.

 

[Cougarbear]

Um, brings me back to my point. Those people were all related. It means any children they produced would have been first cousins and they'd be ******* their cousins. Any children they produced would all be first cousins once again, as well as second cousins.

There'd be so much inbreeding going on they'd reach a genetic dead end

This is Charles II of Spain. Because of severe inbreeding in his ancestry, he looked like this. His line died out.

View attachment 1134134

Actually, it would start off with brothers and sisters. Then, expand out. After several generations, there would be no inbreeding problems. And, God was watching over the situations making sure there were no issues in the beginning centuries. Adam and Eve lived 930 years. The nerds think Seth was the third son born for another 130 years after they were expelled from the Garden of Eden. So, their were most likely daughters born before Seth. However, there is no indication whether Cain and Abel were actually their first two children either. If Seth was the third son, then the first two were born closer to Seth. And, there would have had to be many born before Cain slew Abel for Cain to be banished and find other humans elsewhere. Adam and Eve were most likely pumping out children every year for a hundred years before that. Then, when their children hit puberty, they began to mate and do likewise.

 

[JoeB131]

Actually, it would start off with brothers and sisters. Then, expand out. After several generations, there would be no inbreeding problems. And, God was watching over the situations making sure there were no issues in the beginning centuries. Adam and Eve lived 930 years. The nerds think Seth was the third son born for another 130 years after they were expelled from the Garden of Eden. So, their were most likely daughters born before Seth. However, there is no indication whether Cain and Abel were actually their first two children either. If Seth was the third son, then the first two were born closer to Seth. And, there would have had to be many born before Cain slew Abel for Cain to be banished and find other humans elsewhere. Adam and Eve were most likely pumping out children every year for a hundred years before that. Then, when their children hit puberty, they began to mate and do likewise.

Guy, it's kind of hard to take you seriously when you repeat Bronze Age myths like they were real things.

Adam and Eve lived to be 930? Even if that was true, do you think Eve was still fertile in her 70s? or her 250s? Was she pumping out a kid every year?

The reason why this whole thing is so noxious is that there's a brand of Christians who opposed painkillers for pregnant women because God decreed that Eve and all women had to suffer to make babies.

So, yes, all the scientific fallacies of the flood story can be explained away with MAGIC!

Six people took care of hundreds of animals in a locked boxes with only a tiny window, for a year, and magically, none of the predators ate the herbivores.

Do you know how much shit and piss hundreds of animals would produce?

 

[Cougarbear]

Guy, it's kind of hard to take you seriously when you repeat Bronze Age myths like they were real things.

Adam and Eve lived to be 930? Even if that was true, do you think Eve was still fertile in her 70s? or her 250s? Was she pumping out a kid every year?

The reason why this whole thing is so noxious is that there's a brand of Christians who opposed painkillers for pregnant women because God decreed that Eve and all women had to suffer to make babies.

So, yes, all the scientific fallacies of the flood story can be explained away with MAGIC!

Six people took care of hundreds of animals in a locked boxes with only a tiny window, for a year, and magically, none of the predators ate the herbivores.

Do you know how much shit and piss hundreds of animals would produce?

The flood water above was between the earth and our sun. Death took longer because of this. The protection from the killer rays allowed for longer life. The flood hit and the water fell from the firmament in the sky. The sun shown brighter and people lived shorter lives. Problem solved. Praise God!

 

[cnm]

This is a debate forum.

Where you dismiss the best evidence as 'fake news'.

Very sciencey.

Maybe gawd done it.

 

[cnm]

Guy, it's kind of hard to take you seriously when you repeat Bronze Age myths like they were real things.

Yeah, I haven't managed to be able to take seriously such witterings.

 

[scruffy]

Yikes.

So we can see what kind of belief system we're dealing with.

Well, it's none of my business. People can believe whatever they want to believe. As long as they're not molesting my kids we're good.

Christians are mostly good people. Some of them can be a bit... um... stubborn.

 

[JoeB131]

The flood water above was between the earth and our sun. Death took longer because of this. The protection from the killer rays allowed for longer life. The flood hit and the water fell from the firmament in the sky. The sun shown brighter and people lived shorter lives. Problem solved. Praise God!

That's truly bizarre.

If you never encountered any sunlight, you'd die from a Vitamin D deficiency.

So where did all this water go after the flood if it didn't go back into the sky?

The reality is, 96% of all the world's water is the oceans. The remaining 4% is in lakes, rivers, glaciers, ice caps, and the atmosphere.

To have enough water to cover even the highest mountain, you would need 140% more water than the Earth has now.

So where did all that water go?

 

[Cougarbear]

That's truly bizarre.

If you never encountered any sunlight, you'd die from a Vitamin D deficiency.

So where did all this water go after the flood if it didn't go back into the sky?

The reality is, 96% of all the world's water is the oceans. The remaining 4% is in lakes, rivers, glaciers, ice caps, and the atmosphere.

To have enough water to cover even the highest mountain, you would need 140% more water than the Earth has now.

So where did all that water go?

- The sun was still showing light enough for Vitamin D. And people eventually did die. God was still in charge. So, that's a mute point.

• Much went into the earth and scientists have found a vast amount of water in the earth. 3 times that which is on the surface. Science has also found a vast amount of water out in space as well. Google it.
• See above and check Google.
• There was plenty in the earth. See above. There was plenty between the sun and the earth. God was also in charge and since he can organized a universe, he most certainly can provide enough water. When you read Genesis, it says it came from the heavens and from the fountains of the deep (the earth's crust)
• Back into the earth. Back out into space. God was in charge.

 

[Old Rocks]

The flood water above was between the earth and our sun. Death took longer because of this. The protection from the killer rays allowed for longer life. The flood hit and the water fell from the firmament in the sky. The sun shown brighter and people lived shorter lives. Problem solved. Praise God!

LOL Credit for imagination, none for reality. OK, so all that water fell down on the Earth to a depth of about 30,000 ft. Now, where did all that water go? And why were the oceans still saline after adding all that fresh water? LOL Come on, Babylonian mythology, adapted by the Jews of that time. Epic of Gilgamesh. Yes, probably a reflection of a real even, the flooding of the Black Sea. Not a worldwide event, but definitely the locals whole world.

 

[Old Rocks]

- The sun was still showing light enough for Vitamin D. And people eventually did die. God was still in charge. So, that's a mute point.

• Much went into the earth and scientists have found a vast amount of water in the earth. 3 times that which is on the surface. Science has also found a vast amount of water out in space as well. Google it.
• See above and check Google.
• There was plenty in the earth. See above. There was plenty between the sun and the earth. God was also in charge and since he can organized a universe, he most certainly can provide enough water. When you read Genesis, it says it came from the heavens and from the fountains of the deep (the earth's crust)
• Back into the earth. Back out into space. God was in charge.

Goddidit. LOL Godditit! Answer to everything. But when we stopped saying Goddidit about everything, we developed vaccines, machinery, and modern civilization.

 

[Old Rocks]

- The sun was still showing light enough for Vitamin D. And people eventually did die. God was still in charge. So, that's a mute point.

• Much went into the earth and scientists have found a vast amount of water in the earth. 3 times that which is on the surface. Science has also found a vast amount of water out in space as well. Google it.
• See above and check Google.
• There was plenty in the earth. See above. There was plenty between the sun and the earth. God was also in charge and since he can organized a universe, he most certainly can provide enough water. When you read Genesis, it says it came from the heavens and from the fountains of the deep (the earth's crust)
• Back into the earth. Back out into space. God was in charge.

Water in space. In incipient planetary nebula, nebula, and a good distance between molecules. The water in the earth, specifically ringwoodite, is in a very high pressure deep environment. What would take that water from the surface to those depths? Oh yeah, Goddidit. LOL

Ringwoodite is a high-pressure phase of Mg2SiO4 (magnesium silicate) formed at high temperatures and pressures of the Earth's mantle between 525 and 660 km (326 and 410 mi) depth. It may also contain iron and hydrogen. It is polymorphous with the olivine phase forsterite (a magnesium iron silicate).

 

[Old Rocks]

He also said the if you want to obtain my heaven you must be baptized by water and the spirit. You inserted the word "only" and that does not exist in the verse. "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." There is no need to force your opinion with this verse.

No, that is what the Church elders later wrote. I mean, without a heaven or hell, who would support them in luxury while the rest of the people worked their asses off to support them? And why would an all powerful Deity need that kind of thing? Would not a person living a life aiding those around him be enough for that Deity? No intercessory needed. I much prefer the Native American's idea of a Deity, a Great Spirit present in all things.

 

[Cougarbear]

LOL Credit for imagination, none for reality. OK, so all that water fell down on the Earth to a depth of about 30,000 ft. Now, where did all that water go? And why were the oceans still saline after adding all that fresh water? LOL Come on, Babylonian mythology, adapted by the Jews of that time. Epic of Gilgamesh. Yes, probably a reflection of a real even, the flooding of the Black Sea. Not a worldwide event, but definitely the locals whole world.

You are adding things as you ask your questions. Who said the water from heaven and in the earth was fresh water? And, if it was fresh water, we have to remember that the original ocean was saltine. Also, the one continent split up into 7 continents and how did that affect the seas that were formed? We know the waters lowered rather quickly and with God's assistance, became normal salty seas again.
The old Babylonian things again...Give up on that. No one will agree with you for many reasons. And, the flooding in the Black Sea caused erosions that actually you can find all over the earth including in America like between the Grand Canyon and Zion's National Park. Good grief.

 

[Cougarbear]

Goddidit. LOL Godditit! Answer to everything. But when we stopped saying Goddidit about everything, we developed vaccines, machinery, and modern civilization.

That's because certain civilizations stopped killing each other completely off. And, when we read in the Bible, we see even OT prophets like Isaiah saw some of our modern planes and helicopters and stuff. Even saw the destruction the Atom Bomb did in the Japan region.
Your answer cracks me up. When your question is answered and you have nothing, you fall back on attacking God.

 

[Cougarbear]

Water in space. In incipient planetary nebula, nebula, and a good distance between molecules. The water in the earth, specifically ringwoodite, is in a very high pressure deep environment. What would take that water from the surface to those depths? Oh yeah, Goddidit. LOL

Ringwoodite is a high-pressure phase of Mg2SiO4 (magnesium silicate) formed at high temperatures and pressures of the Earth's mantle between 525 and 660 km (326 and 410 mi) depth. It may also contain iron and hydrogen. It is polymorphous with the olivine phase forsterite (a magnesium iron silicate).

Yep, attacking God is your only comeback. It's interesting about the high pressure water that it looks like soon we will have a new source of energy using the heat generated from it. Anyways, the water in deep space and under the earth is there and was there for the flood to do its job. The creator and organizer of the universe certainly was able to do what was needed with full control over all elements and their parts.