Even If Classified Documents Were Recovered In Trump Raid, It Looks Like Chances Of Conviction Are Quite Slim

[Jim H - VA USA]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

 

[Synthaholic]

Oh, is that how it looks to you?

 

[Jim H - VA USA]

Oh, is that how it looks to you?

Unlike you, I read the statutes.

Rather than just say that I am incorrect, how about explaining why. Some of the statutes are much longer than what I posted, so perhaps I missed some important clauses.

 

[Synthaholic]

I listen to the experts. Because they're experts.

 

[Synthaholic]

You talk about intent?

 

[easyt65]

Since President Trump having ordered the declassification of the documents is on official record and a sitting President is a declassifying Agent, meaning no law was broken because the documents Trump had at his home had been declassified, I would guess there is 0% chance of Trump being charged / convicted of a crime.


Furthermore, since the statute Trump is accused of violating has only been used 7 times in 50 years, and never against a President, I would say there is 0% of Trump being charged / convicted.

Also, since actual classified information was found in Obama' possession and he was never charged, I would say there is 0% chance of Trump being charged.

Also, since Hillary had TS/SCI info in her possession, destroyed classified systems illegally with hammers, and - as Comey publicly stated - committed espionage yet was spared from conviction, there should be 0% chance Trump is charged.

We are, however, talking about the FBI & Democrats who participated in a failed coup attempt, violated the Patriot Act / Constitution / Law, illegally spied on Americans / the President & his team, defrauded the FISA Court, attempted 2 failed coup Impeachment attempts based on no crime / evidence / witnesses & who treasonously manufactured fake evisence in an attempt to overthrow the govt by illegally removing the President....

 

[Jim H - VA USA]

I listen to the experts. Because they're experts.

You must have missed the part about intent and knowledge being required.

It's the entire premise of this thread. That even if possession of classified material were to be proven, the charge does not stick without intent or knowledge, as required by all three statutes. You have not addressed that.

 

[task0778]

I think it's important to remember that the goal of the democrats behind this raid was to embarrass and smear Trump politically. No doubt they hope they can get an arrest and an indictment, but they probably know they aren't going to get a conviction, especially since Hillary got off for what is essentially the same thing. If Trump issued a memo or directive of some sort to the WH Counsel Office to declassify any and all documents then IMHO he's off the hook. Or if he has witnesses to that effect, same deal. So, I'm pretty sure the sole motivation for this entire thing is totally political, just another attempt to find a crime or offense for which they had no evidence.

Speaking of, what evidence was presented to convince the person that authorized the raid that a crime was committed? For something of this magnitude and considering we're talking about a former President, it can't be like it was when he was impeached the 1st time. "I believe", "my impression is", and "everybody knew" just doesn't cut it. People are trying to focus the attention on what was discovered rather than the real question, which is what was the basis for the raid in the 1st place and what was recovered to vindicate that decision? Yes or no, did the raid produce evidence that the specific wrong-doing that the warrant was based on? If it didn't then what we have here is a do-over of the 2016 FBI investigation, a witch-hunt to find any incriminating evidence against an American citizen, purely for political purposes.

 

[easyt65]

You must have missed the part about intent and knowledge being required.

It's the entire premise of this thread. That even if possession of classified material were to be proven, the charge does not stick without intent or knowledge, as required by all three statutes. You have not addressed that.

True - remember, Hillary was not charged with the Espionage Comey declared she committed because, as he said, she was too stupid to know she was committing the crime.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I listen to the experts. Because they're experts.

Well snowflake it seems democrats have done more damage to America than the accusations they make against a pro America president.

 

[Jim H - VA USA]

I listen to the experts. Because they're experts.

PS:

She gets it WRONG.

She says "could be used."

The statute says "is to be used."

Big difference.

 

[Donald H]

Will the next big breaking news event be the revealing of Trump's purpose for holding the documents?

And will it be suggested that he was going to attempt to sell them or trade them off to one of America's enemies?

Russia? Did Trump see the evidence as money in the bank or insurance against legal action being taken against him?

Or did he have other reasons?

Could it be that the top secret documents have already been passed on to Russia? That would seem to be as logical conclusion as anything else.

 

[easyt65]

Will the next big breaking news event be the revealing of Trump's purpose for holding the documents?

And will it be suggested that he was going to attempt to sell them or trade them off to one of America's enemies?

Russia? Did Trump see the evidence as money in the bank or insurance against legal action being taken against him?

Or did he have other reasons?

Could it be that the top secret documents have already been passed on to Russia? That would seem to be as logical conclusion as anything else.

As Obama said, snowflakes, the 1980s called and want their foreign policy back.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

Trump knew the signed statement was not true.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Here are links to the three statutes...

Then there is also this statue...

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

www.law.cornell.edu

(a)
Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

 

[bodecea]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

MAGA-cultists hedging bets now?

 

[Marener]

PS:

She gets it WRONG.

View attachment 681966

She says "could be used."

The statute says "is to be used."

Big difference.

You’re looking at 793(a)

I suggest you scroll down to 793(e)

 

[bigrebnc1775]

MAGA-cultists hedging bets now?

And here comes the DNC choir boy chiming in.

 

[B. Kidd]

I think it's important to remember that the goal of the democrats behind this raid was to embarrass and smear Trump politically. No doubt they hope they can get an arrest and an indictment, but they probably know they aren't going to get a conviction, especially since Hillary got off for what is essentially the same thing. If Trump issued a memo or directive of some sort to the WH Counsel Office to declassify any and all documents then IMHO he's off the hook. Or if he has witnesses to that effect, same deal. So, I'm pretty sure the sole motivation for this entire thing is totally political, just another attempt to find a crime or offense for which they had no evidence.

Speaking of, what evidence was presented to convince the person that authorized the raid that a crime was committed? For something of this magnitude and considering we're talking about a former President, it can't be like it was when he was impeached the 1st time. "I believe", "my impression is", and "everybody knew" just doesn't cut it. People are trying to focus the attention on what was discovered rather than the real question, which is what was the basis for the raid in the 1st place and what was recovered to vindicate that decision? Yes or no, did the raid produce evidence that the specific wrong-doing that the warrant was based on? If it didn't then what we have here is a do-over of the 2016 FBI investigation, a witch-hunt to find any incriminating evidence against an American citizen, purely for political purposes.

Corrupted Dimm Neo-Marxists are aiming for felony head shots of espionage and/or sedition on Trump.
Being the mobsters that they are, I believe that they will deliver it!

As Mark Levine so keenly observes, WE ARE LIVING IN A POST-CONSTITUTIONAL ERA!!!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Then there is also this statue...

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

www.law.cornell.edu

(a)
Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

and yet Hillary was not charged for that. Go figure.