Even If Classified Documents Were Recovered In Trump Raid, It Looks Like Chances Of Conviction Are Quite Slim

[Harpy Eagle]

and yet Hillary was not charged for that. Go figure.

I agree 100% that she should have been and should still be in jail today over it.

That is why Trump pushed for and signed into law the law I linked. It was made official in 2018.

Seems as is often the case, Trump fell into his own trap.

 

[justaschmuck9]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

you appear to be incorrect about 18 USC 2071 which sys "whoever willfully...conceals, removes... OR attempts to do so OR with intent to do so



So even if you just have the intent, you can get in trouble.. which seems odd..

 

[easyt65]

Trump knew the signed statement was not true.

Did he tell you that?

 

[2aguy]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

Can we stop pretending....this wasn't about any violations of any laws......this was the democrat party using their stasi to pretend there is a reason to indict Trump.....to smear him before he has a chance to run in 2024, along with scaring his supporters, and intimidating squish republicans like Romney, Murkowski and collins....and giving cover to quisling republicans like cheney and kinzinger, and other of their ilk since both of them are going to be gone soon...

This isn't a real investigation, this is nothing more than the democrat party ramping up their police state...

So please....stop pretending ....

 

[dudmuck]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

Let's see if I get this right:
1 - There were no classified documents.
2 - And if there were any, the FBI planted them.
3 - But Trump declassified them, even though there weren't any.
4 - Regardless, the non-existent, declassified documents, planted by the FBI, were all returned earlier.
Did I forget something?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Did he tell you that?

He told everyone that. Why else would he bother to lock them up?

 

[Jim H - VA USA]

Then there is also this statue...

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

www.law.cornell.edu

(a)
Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

Thanks; I am aware of that, but it was not listed on the warrant for some reason. There is probably a reason it does not apply, otherwise they would have included it.

 

[Independentthinker]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

Of course they are quite slim. It's all part of the deep state trying to get Trump in any way that they can. This is just episode #100,001 of attempts to get Trump. They all fail because none of them add up to a hill of beans.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Thanks; I am aware of that, but it was not listed on the warrant for some reason. There is probably a reason it does not apply, otherwise they would have included it.

The fact it was not listed does not mean it cannot be used based on what they found while there.

 

[2aguy]

Let's see if I get this right:
1 - There were no classified documents.
2 - And if there were any, the FBI planted them.
3 - But Trump declassified them, even though there weren't any.
4 - Regardless, the non-existent, declassified documents, planted by the FBI, were all returned earlier.
Did I forget something?

Idiot.......if Trump declassified documents they weren't classified.........then there were no classified documents...

But please....see post #24....this isn't about the law, or documents....this is the democrat party using the FBI as their stasi...nothing more...

 

[Marener]

Of course they are quite slim. It's all part of the deep state trying to get Trump in any way that they can. This is just episode #100,001 of attempts to get Trump. They all fail because none of them add up to a hill of beans.

There is no reason for Trump to have taken boxes of government documents to Florida after he left office.

Zero.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

In the warrant (LINK), the laws allegedly broken are included....

"All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or
other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071 , or 1519

Here are links to the three statutes...

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally

www.law.cornell.edu

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy

www.law.cornell.edu

I am not a lawyer, but my read is that it will difficult to prove violation of these statutes, even if classified material was actually seized, for the reasoning I include below (my opinions, not cut and pasted or researched anywhere).

You Biden supporters and/or Trump haters can let me know why I am wrong.

18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information​

Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation...

This statute requires that the person not only be in possession of the material, but that they person believes the material is to be used for injury to the US. No one, even Trump haters with a brain, would think that Trump was going to use the material to cause damage to the United States. What was Trump planning to do, sell nuclear secrets to Kim Jong Un in exchange for billions of dollars? Release the rcords to the NYT to damage the reputation of the US? Doesn't seem credible.

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally​

Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so

This statute requires willful intent. So if Team Trump did not know there was classified material in the boxes, it would appear to be a successful defense against any relevant charge. Also, if there was no concealment or attempt to destroy, and Team Trump had told the FBI to come and get the material anytime it wanted to, like Trump has posted on Truth Social, then there would be no violation...
View attachment 681946

18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy​

Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter

This statute also requires intent. It's relevance is probably that it has been reported that Trump's lawyer signed a statement saying there was no classified material at Mar-A-Lago in June....

Trump's lawyer told the DOJ that ALL classified docs were returned

One of the lawyers working for Former President Donald Trump signed a written statement in June confirming that all classified material had been returned to the government.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If that signed statement was believed to be true at the time, there is no violation of this statute.

Opinions?

Such is the right’s contempt for the rule of law.

Conservatives are perfectly happy with Trump’s reckless, irresponsible handling of national defense intelligence and violating Federal statutes; pleased with the prospect that Trump won’t be convicted of, or punished for, his crimes.

The reprehensible right, indeed.

 

[2aguy]

There is no reason for Trump to have taken boxes of government documents to Florida after he left office.

Zero.

Yes...there is......it's called Presidential Libraries....just like the 30 million documents obama took after he left office.......

 

[Puma Punku]

I believe that most of us here would agree that this raid would not have happened if Trump was not eligible to run in 2024. That leads directly to the conclusion that Trump is being "targeted" simply because the majority of voters may want him to be their next president. It is as simple as that. If you don't see the suckiness in that, then you are not an American.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Idiot.......if Trump declassified documents they weren't classified

That is a really big IF

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Yes...there is......it's called Presidential Libraries....just like the 30 million documents obama took after he left office.......

Obama did not take anything. The National Archives did and they are still stored in a National Archives warehouse, not at Obama's house.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

and yet Hillary was not charged for that. Go figure.

This fails as a red herring fallacy.

The thread is about Trump’s criminality, not Clinton.

What may or may not have happened to Clinton has no bearing on Trump’s crimes and in no manner mitigates Trump’s crimes.

 

[Jim H - VA USA]

You’re looking at 793(a)

I suggest you scroll down to 793(e)

Thank you. My error. She did not get it wrong.

But in the case of e) it requires either

a) transmission of the documents to another person - the documents were allegedly in storage on Trump private property.

or

b) willfully retains the documents and fails to return them - there is that intent thing again.

cc: Synthaholic

 

[Marener]

Yes...there is......it's called Presidential Libraries....just like the 30 million documents obama took after he left office.......

You think Trump’s presidential library is in his basement?

Moron.

 

[Marener]

Thank you. My error. She did not get it wrong.

But in the case of e) it requires either

a) transmission of the documents to another person - the documents were allegedly in storage on Trump private property.

or

b) willfully retains the documents and fails to return them - there is that intent thing again.

cc: Synthaholic

What is the argument against intent? He took them. He kept them.

How does he say he didn’t intend to do so?