Europe's Path to Self Destruction

[alexa]

It's so much garbage that it's not worth the time. If you choose to believe that stuff, that's your choice. Not my problem.

you cannot know something is garbage unless you read it and can argue why it is. You acted like a grammar or spelling nazi rather than debating. People only do that when they have no arguments. That was your first try. Now you come back with outright abuse.

 

[para bellum]

[/quote]

Max blumenthal is a Jew who is very critical of Israel. Israel hates him for that - and being a journalist.

If you did not find it a problem you would not be showing your ignorance repeatedly.

That is NOT my quote and DO NOT TRY TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I do not give a rat's ass about someone's religion.

If you choose to believe that crap- that the US trains Ukrainian soldiers to use civilians as humans shields- and the Ukrainians are doing that- you are a dupe. Simple.

Being a dupe is your problem, not mine.

 

[alexa]

para bellum

That is NOT my quote and DO NOT TRY TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I do not give a rat's ass about someone's religion.

If you choose to believe that crap- that the US trains Ukrainian soldiers to use civilians as humans shields- and the Ukrainians are doing that- you are a dupe. Simple.

Being a dupe is your problem, not mine.

ha ha ha ha ha. I know it is not your quote. However it got in there when I touched something and I couldn't get it out. It isn't to do with his religion and that was clear in what I wrote. FRurther saying someone is Jewish does not necessarily mean their religion. Many Jews do not follow religion or a Buddhist or something else. Blumenthal is an experienced journalist

Max Blumenthal (born December 18, 1977) is an American journalist, author and blogger who is the editor of The Grayzone website.[2][3][4] He was formerly a writer for The Nation, AlterNet,[5] The Daily Beast, Al Akhbar, and Media Matters for America,[6][7] and has contributed to Al Jazeera English, The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times.[6] He has been a writing fellow of the Nation Institute.[8] He is also a regular contributor to Sputnik and RT.[9][10]

Blumenthal has written four books. His first, Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement that Shattered the Party (2009), made the Los Angeles Times and New York Times bestsellers lists.[11] He was awarded the 2014 Lannan Foundation Cultural Freedom Award for An Especially Notable Book for Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel, which was published in 2013.

Max Blumenthal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now it is not because he is Jewish that people like to diss him and pretend he is a waste of time, it is because of the second bit I wrote. It was himself or himself and others who started the Grey zone which you were dissing.

To be honest I wondered whether I should apologise to you for that bit getting stuck under your name but I expected you to know what had happened and not to make a big deal about it ....though how you have acted here tonight ought to have warned me that would not happen.

So because you are unable to look at what is sourced material, instead after trying to diss the author, the site sourcing it and so on you now give what basically all your replies have been the ad hominem fallacy.

 

[alexa]

Thank you for the links. I've learned more on the details of what's been happening since at least 92, and it's all consistent with what I knew was going on.

America intends to eliminate all competition by both Russia and China in the same way it's using the Ukraine for it's proxy against Russia.

There's little anyone in the West can do when up against a huge wall of propaganda that has demonized Russia. And demonized China already, fwiw.

The question now becomes, 'which side will win'? America or Russia?

Both sides are observing limitations to keep a balance, when in fact both sides have the ability to win quickly and decisively. For example: I see the situation as being near to a Russian victory, and soon the balance will be restored with the new US missiles deliver.

This will then cause Russia to escalate and so on and on it goes. Personally, I see those prospects as the possible constructive discussion we can have here now.

When will America's Ukraine proxy eliminate a Russian ship or two of the Black Sea fleet? And when will Russia respond with an attack on US/Nato assets of comparable value?

Just one example of the possibilities that must eventually become inevitable.

This is not my attempt to start an armchair war with Americans, but rather a discussion on the many possible ways this war will spiral out of control.

Again, thank you for your study of the situation and for sharing it!

This has a horrible real feel to it

Asked who will win the Ukraine war, Prof Dror, who has advised six Israeli prime ministers, replied: “This war, like most wars, will end with no absolute winner. Both sides will lose. The question is which side loses more. Ukraine is fighting bravely. President Volodymyr Zelensky has become a mass media hero. Western countries are condemning Russia and providing Kyiv with weapons and sanctions. But meanwhile, Ukraine is being partly devastated and depopulated. It is paying a very high price in blood and material, while Russia remains secure.”

Old Men Talking Sense on Ukraine

Some of the most sensible commentary about the Ukraine war is being made by people in their nineties, born before the Second World War and with vivid recollections of the Cold War. One is 98-year-old Henry Kissinger and another is the 94-year-old Israeli global strategist Prof Yehezkel Dror of...

www.counterpunch.org

 

[para bellum]

So because you are unable to look at what is sourced material, instead after trying to diss the author, the site sourcing it and so on you now give what basically all your replies have been the ad hominem fallacy.

I'm not under any obligation to take apart the piece. Whether you go to the left fringe or the right fringe alt media for your information, you will get a gigantic distortion of the truth. I don't need to read the piece to know that it does the same. The fact that it is on that site already confirms that.

Like all of this style of propaganda, it begins with facts. Then it distorts them and conflates them and draws completely unsupported conclusions. Every paragraph in that piece is subtly phrased to push you to the desired conclusion. They know you will not go to their source documentation and verify for yourself if the conclusions are justified.

You are reading it on that particular site not because it's you go-to, but because it's what you already want to believe, and that's where you came across it first. It will be on RT and other similars. IOW, it will be shared among the network.

It's a long piece and I would have to take it apart paragraph by paragraph. They slip in gratuitous comments as if they were statements from gov't officials. It would be time consuming for me and you would not be receptive to any explanations anyway. So I will not waste the energy. Just the way the author frames the PFP portion would take hours to unfuck. Let alone the NCO college or the joint training center at Graf, and why they exist.

I think you just want someone to confirm the "US imperialism" narrative. It's a zero-sum mindset. The US can't possibly be encouraging those countries to have closer relationships with their neighbors because it's a good idea, the true intent must be to weaken Russia...

If you think the US trains Ukrainians to maximize harm to civilians, I cannot convince you otherwise no matter what I say. My unsolicited advice is be a little more sceptical.

 

[alexa]

I'm not under any obligation to take apart the piece. Whether you go to the left fringe or the right fringe alt media for your information, you will get a gigantic distortion of the truth.

[/QUOTE]

I don't see the situation or the people you are talking about like that. I see them as people having values like myself. I read a bit more of that link you gave me and what they are writing is basically untrue stuff so I am sorry I think you are not knowing what you are talking about.

I don't need to read the piece to know that it does the same. The fact that it is on that site already confirms that.

Sorry but you do. Your eglomania has allowed you to believe you are god and know things without even reading them,

Like all of this style of propaganda, it begins with facts.

The person who wrote that article is new to me so I cannot speak about him personally but Blumenthal and Aaron Matte I have been following for years and I know they are people I can trust from experience. Indeed with Aaron Matte I do not think I have ever come on anyone who works so hard to get the truth as he does. Obviously I do not follow them on everything and everyone can make mistakes but that is my position.

Then it distorts them and conflates them and draws completely unsupported conclusions. Every paragraph in that piece is subtly phrased to push you to the desired conclusion. They know you will not go to their source documentation and verify for yourself if the conclusions are justified.

Then it isn't them and it is just your ego again believing you are better than everyone else and know things without even looking at them, Irony you sound like what you are projecting onto these people.

You are reading it on that particular site not because it's you go-to, but because it's what you already want to believe, and that's where you came across it first. It will be on RT and other similars. IOW, it will be shared among the network.

You are bloody rude. I decided to go there and check what they said because I was wanting to know more about the situation. I still wish I had spent more time getting to know what was going on in 2014. Now look my degree was in social sciences in particular political theory, political sociology and social policy so just quit your ego mania and learn that you are wrong and abusive.

It's a long piece and I would have to take it apart paragraph by paragraph. They slip in gratuitous comments as if they were statements from gov't officials.

You say they - you are obviously talking about more than one person. Who is the other person you are talking about.

It would be time consuming for me and you would not be receptive to any explanations anyway. So I will not waste the energy. Just the way the author frames the PFP portion would take hours to unfuck. Let alone the NCO college or the joint training center at Graf, and why they exist.

Frankly Para, I think I have discovered you are just a waste of time and possibly the rudest person I have met on this forum so far.

I think you just want someone to confirm the "US imperialism" narrative. It's a zero-sum mindset. The US can't possibly be encouraging those countries to have closer relationships with their neighbors because it's a good idea, the true intent must be to weaken Russia...

It is a known that the US is wanting to destroy Russia. They do not even try and keep quiet about it and I am not just talking about people on this forum. I do not know what age you are but now I remember you also seemed to think the war against Iraq, a war which was illegal and and fought on lies was something to the credit of the US as well. You seem to know absolutely nothing except what those who have conditioned you have told you.

If you think the US trains Ukrainians to maximize harm to civilians, I cannot convince you otherwise no matter what I say. My unsolicited advice is be a little more sceptical.

That wasn't what it said. It was talking about using the experience of other groups like the Chechenia's and other paramilitaries to bring the Russians into situations where they would have no alternative but to kill people so that that could be shown to the world to make them look bad. I get that you were in the military. This is talking about covert behaviour and if you don't think that this goes on then as with the rest you have learnt nothing yet.

 

[para bellum]

I do not know what age you are but now I remember you also seemed to think the war against Iraq, a war which was illegal and and fought on lies was something to the credit of the US as well.

Well this is another erroneous conclusion you have drawn.

I have never justified or defended the decision to invade Iraq. My comments have been limited to refuting lies regarding the conduct of US forces. I said the US made a lot of mistakes, and that's an understatement.

I could not have posted the opinion that the Iraq war was "to the credit of the US" because I am not in posession of that opinion.

Whataboutism- the US did this or the US did that, is just deflection. No one forced Putin to invade Ukraine, just as no one forced the US to go to war in Iraq. Both invasions were voluntary decisions.

It cannot be wrong for the US to invade Iraq under false pretenses, but okay for Russia to do the same thing.

The notion that the US or NATO wanted the war is dumb. Implicit in that argument is that Putin is somehow under US/NATO control. We "made him do it". It also completely ignores that actual facts and circumstances leading up to the invasion. The West tried like hell for 3 months to get Zelensky to take the Russian buildup seriously, and he blew off the warnings in a very public way.

Zelensky didn't finally mobilize until a few hours before 24 FEB 22. Prior to that, Ukrainians were not training on US/NATO weapons systems, other than we had given them a few hundred Javelins. That's enough to train a few operators, but not enough to have any military impact whatsoever.

Ukraine hadn't asked for any weapons, and none had been offered. After the invasion, that changed dramatically.

It's also illogical to think that the prior years of NATO/Ukraine training together proves some kind of intent to provoke an invasion, since there was obviously no pre-invasion preparation by anyone except Russia. And it's defamatory to equate training for urban combat to training someone to commit war crimes.

 

[Ringo]

The British press is unanimously perplexed, how can a white man, who has come on a russian safari, be judged?
Get used to it. The new world has many more wonderful discoveries in store

 

[alexa]

Well this is another erroneous conclusion you have drawn.

I have never justified or defended the decision to invade Iraq. My comments have been limited to refuting lies regarding the conduct of US forces. I said the US made a lot of mistakes, and that's an understatement.

I could not have posted the opinion that the Iraq war was "to the credit of the US" because I am not in posession of that opinion.

That was how I felt from what you said.. You have every right to say it is not yours but it was how I felt at the time. I guess in the future you can prove me wrong if that is the case. You do however have very naive views on how the US works when you claim the US did not attack civilians. There are untold records of this. They even murdered one of our news reporters because he determined to work alone and not be part of a team, and hence restricted.

Whataboutism- the US did this or the US did that, is just deflection. No one forced Putin to invade Ukraine, just as no one forced the US to go to war in Iraq. Both invasions were voluntary decisions.

No dear it is not. You would have to put such things in context to be able to show that. Tis you who are deflecting.

It cannot be wrong for the US to invade Iraq under false pretenses, but okay for Russia to do the same thing.

Who suggested this would not be true? The cause of Russia's invasion of Ukraine is however one which there are two completely different narratives on, the second one being that the US was at least in part responsible through her actions such as bringing Ukraine into NATO on pretty much all levels but article 5, her work towards the expulsion of Viktor Yanukovych outside of the Ukrainian Constitution, (regardless of his character), the US involvement in the creation of the next Government and possibly something to do with the Maidan shootings - though I would need to check on that and the US support for the 2014-22 war against East Ukraine in both weapons and training.

The notion that the US or NATO wanted the war is dumb. Implicit in that argument is that Putin is somehow under US/NATO control. We "made him do it". It also completely ignores that actual facts and circumstances leading up to the invasion. The West tried like hell for 3 months to get Zelensky to take the Russian buildup seriously, and he blew off the warnings in a very public way.

I have put some of them above.

Zelensky didn't finally mobilize until a few hours before 24 FEB 22. Prior to that, Ukrainians were not training on US/NATO weapons systems, other than we had given them a few hundred Javelins. That's enough to train a few operators, but not enough to have any military impact whatsoever.

There was a long time training of Ukrainians by NATO. Ukraine fought in the Afghan and Iraq wars. Nato (and British too I think) training was increased after the shenanigans of 2014 but all the things in that Article are sourced. I checked and found other sources. The US had been interested in Ukraine for NATO since 1992 and 1994.

My reading suggests Zelensky is not in charge of whether your country is at war or not. Other people rule him not lease the Azov. Zelensky was for peace before this and even went ahead with a meeting with Putin. However when he tried to stop the Azov from fighting, then he was told they would not and threatened him and his life. They would not stop fighting because to do so from their view would have been to admit some sort of failure. They want all of Ukraine back. I read it was when Zelensky decided to fight to get Crimea back that the scenario which eventually lead to this war happened. There was also apparently a big increase in the fighting from the Ukrainian side in the days before Russia's invasion. I have also seen it argued that it will be the US who decides when this war ends. Zelensky may well have wanted peace but it was not his choice is what my reading tells me.

Ukraine hadn't asked for any weapons, and none had been offered. After the invasion, that changed dramatically.

Training and weapons are not the same thing. I have been speaking about training. I have not specifically looked at weapons though there definitely was an increase in them from 2014 to support the war in Eastern Ukraine

After backing 2014 coup, US provides “lethal security assistance”Established in 2014 during the US-backed coup, the Ukraine component of the US State Department and Pentagon’s Global Security Contingency Fund (GSCF) provides tens of millions of dollars-worth of training and equipment to “develop the tactical, operational, and institutional training capacities of its Ministry of Defense and National Guard.” The State Department says: “The GSCF has also supported Ukrainian Special Operations Forces in developing tactical and institutional capabilities that are compatible with Western models.”
,,,,,,
In November 2015, supposedly at the request of the new pro-US regime, the Obama administration sent two AN/TPQ radar systems to Ukraine. “President Petro Poroshenko had the opportunity to review the equipment, and was briefed by U.S. military personnel on its capabilities.”

The US Army later revealed that the radar system was not purely defensive. A team from US Army Europe, Fort Sill’s Fires Center of Excellence (FCoE), and the Army Security Assistance Training Management Organization (SATMO) “conducted four weeks of operator training.”

Since the initial delivery, “Ukraine received four additional Q-36 radars … and training by U.S. Army Communications-Electronics Command with support from the FCoE and USSATMO.” The publication quoted one trainer as saying that “the U.S. team showed their brigade, battalion and platoon commanders how to tactically employ the radar system to support fire and maneuver efforts.”

Since 2016, SATMO’s Doctrine Education Advisory Group (DEAG) “has advised Ukrainian Security Forces at the operational level to revise doctrine, improve professional military education, enhance NATO interoperability and increase combat readiness.” In January this year, DEAG brought the first load of $200m-worth of “lethal security assistance, including ammunition for the frontline defenders of Ukraine.”
,

‘Gods of War’: How the US weaponized Ukraine against Russia - The Grayzone

Since the US-engineered 2013-14 coup in Ukraine, American forces have taught Ukrainians, including neo-Nazi units, how to fight in urban and other civilian areas. Weaponizing Ukraine is part of Washington’s quest for what the Pentagon calls “full spectrum dominance.” “[I]f you can learn all...

thegrayzone.com

Plenty of weapons prior to this war.

It's also illogical to think that the prior years of NATO/Ukraine training

Oh so now you are admitting there was NATO training! Well that is a start I guess.

together proves some kind of intent to provoke an invasion,

I would agree with that. One would need to look at the context and other things which were going on which I have and outlined above.

since there was obviously no pre-invasion preparation by anyone except Russia.

You were already at war in the Donbas and the L regions and had been since 2014 causing the death of I think it was 15,000 Ukrainians.

And it's defamatory to equate training for urban combat to training someone to commit war crimes.

Well unfortunately that goes on in most wars. I think this is what you are referring to

US trains Ukrainians to “blend into the local populace” waging warfare in civilian-heavy areas​

One of the more immoral US actions in Ukraine has been the training of armed forces to fight in civilian areas, goading Russia to fight in densely-populated locations with the effect of scoring anti-Russia propaganda points when Russians kill Ukrainian civilians.

In 2015, the US Marines implied that American service personnel would travel to Ukraine to fight. “Unofficial travel (leave or liberty) to any country in Africa or the following European countries [including Ukraine and its neighbors] requires command O-6 level approval … The countries are subject to change based on the Foreign Clearance Guide (FCG), Department of State (DOS), Combatant Command, and/or Intelligence threat notifications.” This suggests preparation for “irregular” warfare.

same link as above.

In the UK our media led us to believe that Ukraine was full of angels being attacked by a monster. As time went by that Monster attacked schools, homes hospitals. I started watching some of the old videos of the fighting in East Ukraine from 2014. In one of them I was shocked to hear an East Ukrainian talking about how the Ukrainians which I think was the Azov battalion fought in exactly that way. They said that they attacked peoples homes, the schools and the hospitals to get people to leave, This was said and filmed years before Russia apparently did the same.

 

[Ringo]

A member of the European Parliament, ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland called for the transfer of nuclear weapons to Ukraine:
"Western governments should supply Kiev with nuclear weapons to strengthen the country's defense capabilities."
Sikorsky provokes a nuclear conflict in the center of Europe, without thinking about the future of either Ukraine or Poland.
If his proposals are implemented, these countries will be gone, as well as Europe.
It is because of such as Sikorsky that it is necessary to liberate Ukraine not only from Nazi ideology, but also to demilitarize it, ensuring the country's nuclear-free status.

 

[francoHFW]

NO conspiracy lol....We should offer Russia membership in the EU....just pass the usual hurdles....and the usa please!