Europe's Path to Self Destruction

[ESay]

True I have not read the agreement and will. Nonetheless sorting the problems in the East and peace with Russia was what Zelenskyy was elected to do.



Ukraine election: Comedian Zelensky wins presidency by landslide

Now as far as the first part 'rebooting peace talks with separatists fighting Ukrainian forces' something must have happened because there are reports of Zelenskyy telling the Azov battalion that he wants them to put down their arms and them refusing and basically threatening Zelensky's life and this changing Zelenskyy.

You say there were other reasons for Russia starting this war. I take it you are accepting that Russia's fear of Ukraine joining NATO was genuine and you claim there were other reasons for the war. I have heard of other reasons as well. I have heard the problems began when Zelenskyy decided he was going to take back Crimea and that there was a massive increase in fighting in the Donetsk region in the days prior to Russia's 'intervention' initiated by the Ukranian's and that is what caused Russia's war against Ukraine.

The only reason of this war is Russia trying to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence. It failed to do so by political means through the Minsk agreements implementation on their terms. Now, they are trying to do so by military means.

 

[ESay]

ESay I was a little too quick in saying I would read the Minsk agreements. I am guessing it would probably take weeks. It would be better if you said why you believe Zelenskyy could not fulfil what he was elected to in that regard. I have only heard things like France and other countries not fulfilling their part. If you tell me why you believe it was impossible for Zelenaskyy to sign the Minsk agreements I will look that up.

I didn't trust Zelensky and didn't vote for him. The Minsk agreements can only be implemented through mutual concessions. Russia wanted to implement them on their terms. Naturally, Ukraine was pushing its own view of their implementation. Zelensky's pledge to stop the conflict in Donbas was a wishful thinking far from reality.

 

[alexa]

Your two above posts seem roughly the same so I am going to answer them together. I will say though that your feelings for Zelenskyy seem sound. Now in both of your posts you put Russia as the place to blame for nothing coming through political means but what I am reading is that it was Zelenskyy who stopped this happening possibly on instructions from the US though possibly not Biden. I see Zelenskyy had been busy delivering neo liberalism to Ukraine and doing that through foreign people. It is possible someone there might have put pressure of Zelenskyy and also very possibly the far right but the picture I am getting is that he would have liked to be able to provide peace but he simply was not able. Check this out.

AARON MATÉ: It’s pretty clear to me that Zelenskyy’s government had no interest in serious diplomacy on all the critical issues that could have avoided a war, and I think the main factor is what I presume to be US pressure behind the scenes, which we can’t fully prove now. But I imagine evidence of that might come out later. And certainly, the open hostility of Ukraine’s far right, who essentially threatened Zelenskyy’s life if he made peace with Russia. And these threats have dogged him throughout his presidency and continued right up to the eve of the invasion, and it led to people like his top security official saying in late January that the implementation of the Minsk accords would lead to Ukraine’s destruction—after Zelenskyy was elected on a platform of implementing Minsk—and that carried over to the final talks on implementing the Minsk accords that were brokered by Germany and France.

At those talks in February, Zelenskyy’s government all of a sudden refused to even speak to the representatives of the rebels, which makes an accord possible. And meanwhile you had developments like this, which we just learned about from The Wall Street Journal, which was that the German chancellor [Olaf] Scholz on February 19th told Zelenskyy that, quote, “Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia.” And this pact Scholz proposed would be signed by Biden and Putin, but Zelenskyy rejected this—rejected out of hand.

But my question is, because I think it’s pretty conclusive that the Zelenskyy-Ukraine side sabotaged diplomacy, but what about Russia? Do you think Russia exhausted all of its diplomatic options to avoid a war? For example, why not go to the UN and ask for a peacekeeping force in the Donbas? And second of all, if the aim is to protect the people of the Donbas, why invade far beyond the Donbas and not just go there?

JACQUES BAUD: Well, I think the Russians have totally lost faith in the West. I think that’s the main thing. They don’t trust the West anymore, and that’s why I think now they rely on a total victory on the military side in order to have some benefits in the negotiation.

I think Zelenskyy…I’m not sure exactly if he’s so ant to have peace. I think he cannot do it. I think from the very beginning he was caught between his…remember that he was elected with the idea of achieving peace in the Donbas. That was his objective; that was his program as president. But I think the West—and I would say the Americans and the British didn’t want this peace to occur. And of course, the Germans and the French who were the guarantors of the Minsk agreement for the Ukrainian side, they never really implemented this—their function. I mean, they have never done their job, clearly. And especially France, which is simultaneously a member of the Security Council. Because I will just remind you that the Minsk agreements were also part of a resolution of the Security Council. So, meaning that they have not only the signature of the different parties that was done in Minsk, but you have also the members of the Security Council who were responsible for implementation of the agreement, and nobody wanted to have this agreement made. So that means that, I think, there was a lot of pressure on Zelenskyy so that he wouldn’t even talk to the representatives of the two breakaway Republics.

And after that we have seen, by the way, that we have several indications that Zelenskyy was not completely, or is not completely, in control of what’s going on in Ukraine. I think the extreme, let’s say, nationalist extreme right—I don’t know exactly what is the right term because it’s a mixture of everything—but these forces definitely prevent him, or prevented him, so far to do anything. And we can see also that he’s back and forth regarding peace. As soon as he started, you may remember that at the end of February, as soon as Zelenskyy indicated that he might be willing to start negotiations, this was the time where these negotiations were to take place in Belarus. Within hours after Zelenskyy decided that, the European Union came with a decision providing for half a billion arms to Ukraine, meaning that the Americans, certainly, but I think the West as a whole, made every possible effort to prevent a political solution to the conflict, and I think the Russians are aware of that.

US, EU sacrificing Ukraine to ‘weaken Russia’: fmr. NATO adviser - The Grayzone

Former Swiss intelligence officer and NATO adviser Jacques Baud on the roots of the Ukraine-Russia war and its growing dangers. As the Russia-Ukraine war enters a new phase, former Swiss intelligence officer, senior United Nations official, and NATO advisor Jacques Baud analyzes the conflict and...

thegrayzone.com

Regarding your position on Russia I wonder if it has anything to do with this

Now we have also to understand that the Russians have a different understanding of how to wage a war on the Western powers, especially the US. That means that in the West we tend to, if we negotiate, we negotiate up to a certain point and then negotiations stop, and we start war. And that’s war, period. In the Russian way of doing things, it’s different. You start a war, but you never leave the diplomatic track, and you go on both ways, in fact. You put mental pressure and you try to achieve an objective, also with diplomatic means. This is very much a Clausewitzian approach to war—when [Prussian general and military theorist Carl von] Clausewitz, as you know, defined war as the continuation of politics with other means.


That’s exactly how the Russians see that. That’s why during the whole offensive, and even at the very beginning of the offensive, they started, or they indicated they were willing, to negotiate. So, the Russians certainly want to negotiate, but they don’t trust the Western countries—I mean the West at large—to facilitate that negotiation. And that’s the reason why they didn’t come to the Security Council. By the way, they know that, probably, because, as you know, this physical war that we witness now is part of a broader war that was started years ago against Russia, and I think, in fact, Ukraine is just…I mean, nobody is interested in Ukraine, I think. The target, the aim, the objective is to weaken Russia, and once it will be done with Russia, they will do the same with China, and you can already see. I mean, we have seen that now, the Ukrainian crisis has overshadowed the rest, but you could have a very similar scenario happening with Taiwan, for instance. So, the Chinese are aware of that. That’s the reason why they don’t want to give up their, let’s say, relationship with Russia.

same link.

It says somewhere there, Russia has now stopped thinking a resolution is possible on any level except brute force, but that is because of how negotiations have gone up till now.

 

[ESay]

Your two above posts seem roughly the same so I am going to answer them together. I will say though that your feelings for Zelenskyy seem sound. Now in both of your posts you put Russia as the place to blame for nothing coming through political means but what I am reading is that it was Zelenskyy who stopped this happening possibly on instructions from the US though possibly not Biden. I see Zelenskyy had been busy delivering neo liberalism to Ukraine and doing that through foreign people. It is possible someone there might have put pressure of Zelenskyy and also very possibly the far right but the picture I am getting is that he would have liked to be able to provide peace but he simply was not able. Check this out.

US, EU sacrificing Ukraine to ‘weaken Russia’: fmr. NATO adviser - The Grayzone

Former Swiss intelligence officer and NATO adviser Jacques Baud on the roots of the Ukraine-Russia war and its growing dangers. As the Russia-Ukraine war enters a new phase, former Swiss intelligence officer, senior United Nations official, and NATO advisor Jacques Baud analyzes the conflict and...

thegrayzone.com

Regarding your position on Russia I wonder if it has anything to do with this



same link.

It says somewhere there, Russia has now stopped thinking a resolution is possible on any level except brute force, but that is because of how negotiations have gone up till now.

I can't add anything to what I already wrote above. I understand what line you follow. You think that it is Ukraine provoked this war. Okay, it is your right on opinion.

 

[alexa]

I can't add anything to what I already wrote above. I understand what line you follow. You think that it is Ukraine provoked this war. Okay, it is your right on opinion.

That isn't what I said and I am learning. What I am reading not just there but from others as well suggests that Zelenskyy is not working towards peace but it is believed he wants to and hence that it is some other actor who may be stopping him doing it, I am not looking for an 'opinion'. I am trying to work out what is going on.

 

[ESay]

That isn't what I said and I am learning. What I am reading not just there but from others as well suggests that Zelenskyy is not working towards peace but it is believed he wants to and hence that it is some other actor who may be stopping him doing it, I am not looking for an 'opinion'. I am trying to work out what is going on.

I can tell you the easiest way to peace with 100% guarantees - Russia takes their troops out of Ukraine and stop shelling Ukrainian cities.

 

[alexa]

I said it above but I seem to have to repeat it once again. Yes, Russian tanks wouldn't have showed up near Berlin or Paris. But ask about that in Warsaw or Tallinn, and you would find out that people's concern about them there is much stronger.

Poor you. Not to me you didn't because I have the same opinion as you. However4 the people in the OP video on reading Western Newspapers believed that was their position.

And you, West Europeans, should finally realize that you either take part in European security architecture which comprises all of Europe or you should get out of NATO and re-formate the EU to the point as it was in the post-war times (I.e. includes only West European countries).

I would agree that Western Europe is distinct from Eastern Europe and I do not think that is good for us. However the US wanted Europe to let people into the EU as soon as possible - again to move them out of Moscow's influence. The US never really tried for peace at the end of the cold war. Now we have Hungary which is not really a democracy in any more and the EU is thinking of rejecting them.

You can't do business as usual with Russia and hope to get economic benefits out of that, while it openly threats you Eastern flanc.

It isn't but no one was talking about that. Russia has been put under the worse sanctions ever. One thing is for sure, countries will need to learn to keep their money under their mattress's again. The Bank of England gave something like 200 tons of Gold to the fake President the US created. From what I hear Russia is in no way a Democracy in any way. We are punishing the Russian people expecting them to get rid of their Dictator and punishing them for not so doing. As always the rich do well.

 

[alexa]

I can tell you the easiest way to peace with 100% guarantees - Russia takes their troops out of Ukraine and stop shelling Ukrainian cities.

But you know that is not going to happen. It wasn't just Russia. In 2015 you agreed to allow the people in the east to have autonomy within Ukraine. You were supposed to stop attacking them. You didn't.

 

[ESay]

But you know that is not going to happen. It wasn't just Russia. In 2015 you agreed to allow the people in the east to have autonomy within Ukraine. You were supposed to stop attacking them. You didn't.

The active fighting ended in 2015. Ceasefire violations happened on both sides. Autonomy as a part of Ukraine. Pro-Russian marionettes with Moscow's support began building de-facto independent states. Clear violation of the agreements.

 

[Donald H]

But you know that is not going to happen. It wasn't just Russia. In 2015 you agreed to allow the people in the east to have autonomy within Ukraine. You were supposed to stop attacking them. You didn't.

You're doing a good job of learning! Just stay the course and don't allow them to drag you down into a pissing match.

As to Zelensky being a willing partner in America's cause, or is being coerced or bribed? That's a difficult question to answer.

Maybe the most important question you can answer for yourself is on how much America was involved in the attacks by the Ukraine in the Donbass region?

In my opinion the pattern is familiar and common to nearly all other situations of war coming to Russia's borders.

 

[Donald H]

The active fighting ended in 2015. Ceasefire violations happened on both sides. Autonomy as a part of Ukraine. Pro-Russian marionettes with Moscow's support began building de-facto independent states. Clear violation of the agreements.

You're not telling the truth.
But there's nothing in it for me to present facts to your closed mind.

 

[ESay]

You're not telling the truth.
But there's nothing in it for me to present facts to your closed mind.

What facts can you present except the ones of your ignorance?

 

[alexa]

The active fighting ended in 2015. Ceasefire violations happened on both sides. Autonomy as a part of Ukraine. Pro-Russian marionettes with Moscow's support began building de-facto independent states. Clear violation of the agreements.

I found these statistics from 2015 on what the people wanted. Only 1% wanted Independent States

A 2007 survey by the Razumkov Centre asked "Would you like to have your region separated from Ukraine and joined another state?" In eastern Ukraine, 77.9% of respondents disagreed, 10.4% agreed, and the rest were undecided.[26]

Kyiv International Institute of Sociology geographical division of Ukraine used in their polls
In a poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in the first half of February 2014, 25.8% of those polled in eastern Ukraine believed that "Ukraine and Russia must unite into a single state", nationwide this percentage was 12.5%.[27]

A November 2015 poll carried out by Rating Group Ukraine in the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, except in the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and the Luhansk People's Republic (LPR)-controlled areas, found that 75% of residents wanted the entire Donbas region to stay in Ukraine, 7% said that it should join Russia, 1% wanted it to become an independent country, and 3% said that the DPR and the LPR-controlled territories should leave and the rest of Donbas remain in Ukraine.[28] When asked if Russian-speaking citizens are under pressure or threat, 82% said 'no' and 11% said 'yes'.[28] 2% "definitely" and 7% "somewhat" supported Russia sending troops to "protect" Russian-speakers in Ukraine, while 71% did not.[28] 50% wanted Ukraine to remain a unitary country, 14% wanted it to be a federal country, 13% said it should remain unitary but without Crimea, and 7% wanted it to be divided into several countries.[28] If they had to choose between the Eurasian Customs Union and the European Union, 24% in eastern Ukraine (including Kharkiv Oblast) preferred the ECU and 20% preferred the EU (in Donbas: 33% for the ECU, 21% for the EU). On joining NATO, 15% were for, 15% were against, and most said that they would not vote or it was difficult to answer (in Donbas: 16% for, 47% against).[28] Eastern Ukrainians were less likely to vote in parliamentary elections.[28]

Eastern Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have now found this. It certainly does sound like it was Ukraine who was not in favour of Minsk 2 and the tiny 'Independent States' were known of by then.

In April 2014, Russia-backed rebels seized government buildings in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, proclaimed the creation of "people's republics" and battled Ukrainian troops and volunteer battalions.

The following month, the separatist regions held a popular vote to declare independence and make a bid to become part of Russia. Moscow did not accept the motion, but used the regions as a tool to keep Ukraine in its orbit and prevent it from joining NATO.
.........

After a massive defeat of Ukrainian troops in August 2014, envoys from Kyiv, the rebels and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe signed a truce in the Belarusian capital of Minsk in September 2014.

The document envisaged an OSCE-observed cease-fire, a pullback of all foreign fighters, an exchange of prisoners and hostages, an amnesty for the rebels and a promise that separatist regions could have a degree of self-rule.
.............

A frozen conflict in eastern Ukraine​

The 2015 peace deal was a major diplomatic coup for the Kremlin, obliging Ukraine to grant special status to the separatist regions, allowing them to create their own police force and have a say in appointing local prosecutors and judges. It also envisaged that Ukraine could only regain control over the roughly 125-mile border with Russia in rebel regions after they get self-rule and hold OSCE-monitored local elections — balloting that would almost certainly keep pro-Moscow rebels in power there.

Many Ukrainians see it as a betrayal of national interests and its implementation has stalled.

Facing calls from Berlin and Paris for its implementation, Ukrainian officials have strengthened their criticism of the Minsk deal and warned that it could lead to the country's demise. Two rounds of talks in Paris and Berlin between presidential envoys from Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany have yielded no progress.

What you need to know about Ukraine's separatist regions

Putin recognized the independence of Moscow-backed rebel regions in eastern Ukraine, a move that will further inflame tensions with the West.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[alexa]

You're doing a good job of learning! Just stay the course and don't allow them to drag you down into a pissing match.

As to Zelensky being a willing partner in America's cause, or is being coerced or bribed? That's a difficult question to answer.

Maybe the most important question you can answer for yourself is on how much America was involved in the attacks by the Ukraine in the Donbass region?

In my opinion the pattern is familiar and common to nearly all other situations of war coming to Russia's borders.

Ouch, my post disappeared! There is a hell of a lot to take in here but..... I have been reading about the US/UK weaponization of the people of Ukraine against Russia and my hair is standing on end. I don't think I have ever heard of anything so deceitful not just to the Russians but to the people of their countries which they claim are democracies. Ukraine has already become part of Nato in all ways but Article 5. Not that article but another wrote 'Europe is destroyed' meaning the peace loving Europe which came into being in 45 has been destroyed by her impotence since the 'coup' of 13-14 and her refusal to call out a spade for a spade. The article I will link to says there has been a decades long campaign by the US/UK to not just pull Ukraine away from Russia but to 'weaponize' her against Russia and during that time Ukraine has been taught every dirty trick in the book and then some to use against Russia. The intent has been to provoke Russia into retaliation. The US has spoken about Russia 'pushing back not pushing first'.

Oh before I forget the motivation for getting as many as possible Eastern European countries into NATO and the EU was not primarily for anything to do with defence. It was to spread Neo Liberalism, that devious thing brought to us by Thatcher and Regan which surpassed Capitalism and did what would have people of my parents generation going crazy if they even suspected one might come,,, they created Monopolies,,the very things which WW2 taught people gave rise to fascism....and is most certainly not capitalism. That was the US's primary motivation to get these countries into Nato and the EU and this system will end up with most people living in poverty. They've been working on Ukraine since at lease 1992 and Russia will have known what was going on - at least I am assuming its intelligence is good, so it has been exceptionally patient I would say.

It speaks about when the Soviet Union ended it ended the Warsaw Pact but the West did not end NATO. It brought it right up to Russia's borders. and Ukraine itself has been in a military partnership with the US since the mid 90's. Ukraine troops fought in US wars. They were there in Afghanistan and Iraq. Since the US engineered coup of 2014 the US has put tens of millions of dollars into training Ukrainians and providing them with weapons. This will be no surprise to a lot of people

According to one Pentagon-linked journal: “Arsen Avakov, the Minister of Internal Affairs from 2014 to 2021[, …] enabled the expansion and later integration of paramilitary forces into the National Guard,” including the nazi Azov Battalion.

above link.

OK now they get to gross stuff

US trains Ukrainians to “blend into the local populace” waging warfare in civilian-heavy areas​

One of the more immoral US actions in Ukraine has been the training of armed forces to fight in civilian areas, goading Russia to fight in densely-populated locations with the effect of scoring anti-Russia propaganda points when Russians kill Ukrainian civilians.

They prepared Ukrainians for 'irregular warfare' doing things like learning from the Chechnya rebels response to Russia.

Russia’s enemies used “misinformation” to manipulate Russians into killing the rebels’ enemies...The document explicitly advocates for the US to train irregular forces to provoke Russia:
...............
By bolstering Ukraine’s armed forces and goading Russia, US elites have openly used Ukrainian civilians as pawns. For many years, Ukrainian forces were trained in urban combat by US personnel: i.e., to fight Russians in densely-populated civilian areas. “Task Force Illini” is comprised of 150 soldiers from the 33rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team of the Illinois Army National Guard.

The US have attempted to train the Ukrainians to NATO standards while we are left to believe they are just Joe Blogs the postman being brave.

Then there is 'covert operations' to kill Russians ignoring the Geneva Conventions. It also explains that the US was well aware that the Ukraine military was full of Nazis. I suspect as with Al Qaeda they thought they would be better at fighting because of their fanaticism.

Anyway if you read the article you will find how Ukraine has been working as a NATO unit since the mid 90's has been taught how to manipulate Russians to go into civilian areas and either harm the people or it can be made to look as if they had.

‘Gods of War’: How the US weaponized Ukraine against Russia - The Grayzone

Since the US-engineered 2013-14 coup in Ukraine, American forces have taught Ukrainians, including neo-Nazi units, how to fight in urban and other civilian areas. Weaponizing Ukraine is part of Washington’s quest for what the Pentagon calls “full spectrum dominance.” “[I]f you can learn all...

thegrayzone.com

This article is on the US led 2014 Coup How and why the U.S. Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine

 

[para bellum]

The Grayzone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[alexa]

The Grayzone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You go onto wiki and write that first?

So that is the website which this sourced article came from. Shall we look at the author?

T.J. Coles

Dr. T.J. Coles is an associate researcher at the Organisation for Propaganda Studies and the author of several books, including Manufacturing Terrorism

truthout.org

or this

T. J. Coles is director of the Plymouth Institute for Peace Research and the author of several books, including Voices for Peace (with Noam Chomsky and others) and Fire and Fury: How the US Isolates North Korea, Encircles China and Risks Nuclear War in Asia (both Clairview Books).

When people start doing things like trying to suggest an article is a lie because they have found or written something which does not like the site they are reading it from, we know they have no argument.

 

[Donald H]

Ouch, my post disappeared! There is a hell of a lot to take in here but..... I have been reading about the US/UK weaponization of the people of Ukraine against Russia and my hair is standing on end. I don't think I have ever heard of anything so deceitful not just to the Russians but to the people of their countries which they claim are democracies. Ukraine has already become part of Nato in all ways but Article 5. Not that article but another wrote 'Europe is destroyed' meaning the peace loving Europe which came into being in 45 has been destroyed by her impotence since the 'coup' of 13-14 and her refusal to call out a spade for a spade. The article I will link to says there has been a decades long campaign by the US/UK to not just pull Ukraine away from Russia but to 'weaponize' her against Russia and during that time Ukraine has been taught every dirty trick in the book and then some to use against Russia. The intent has been to provoke Russia into retaliation. The US has spoken about Russia 'pushing back not pushing first'.

Oh before I forget the motivation for getting as many as possible Eastern European countries into NATO and the EU was not primarily for anything to do with defence. It was to spread Neo Liberalism, that devious thing brought to us by Thatcher and Regan which surpassed Capitalism and did what would have people of my parents generation going crazy if they even suspected one might come,,, they created Monopolies,,the very things which WW2 taught people gave rise to fascism....and is most certainly not capitalism. That was the US's primary motivation to get these countries into Nato and the EU and this system will end up with most people living in poverty. They've been working on Ukraine since at lease 1992 and Russia will have known what was going on - at least I am assuming its intelligence is good, so it has been exceptionally patient I would say.

It speaks about when the Soviet Union ended it ended the Warsaw Pact but the West did not end NATO. It brought it right up to Russia's borders. and Ukraine itself has been in a military partnership with the US since the mid 90's. Ukraine troops fought in US wars. They were there in Afghanistan and Iraq. Since the US engineered coup of 2014 the US has put tens of millions of dollars into training Ukrainians and providing them with weapons. This will be no surprise to a lot of people

above link.

OK now they get to gross stuff


They prepared Ukrainians for 'irregular warfare' doing things like learning from the Chechnya rebels response to Russia.


The US have attempted to train the Ukrainians to NATO standards while we are left to believe they are just Joe Blogs the postman being brave.

Then there is 'covert operations' to kill Russians ignoring the Geneva Conventions. It also explains that the US was well aware that the Ukraine military was full of Nazis. I suspect as with Al Qaeda they thought they would be better at fighting because of their fanaticism.

Anyway if you read the article you will find how Ukraine has been working as a NATO unit since the mid 90's has been taught how to manipulate Russians to go into civilian areas and either harm the people or it can be made to look as if they had.

‘Gods of War’: How the US weaponized Ukraine against Russia - The Grayzone

Since the US-engineered 2013-14 coup in Ukraine, American forces have taught Ukrainians, including neo-Nazi units, how to fight in urban and other civilian areas. Weaponizing Ukraine is part of Washington’s quest for what the Pentagon calls “full spectrum dominance.” “[I]f you can learn all...

thegrayzone.com

This article is on the US led 2014 Coup How and why the U.S. Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine

Thank you for the links. I've learned more on the details of what's been happening since at least 92, and it's all consistent with what I knew was going on.

America intends to eliminate all competition by both Russia and China in the same way it's using the Ukraine for it's proxy against Russia.

There's little anyone in the West can do when up against a huge wall of propaganda that has demonized Russia. And demonized China already, fwiw.

The question now becomes, 'which side will win'? America or Russia?

Both sides are observing limitations to keep a balance, when in fact both sides have the ability to win quickly and decisively. For example: I see the situation as being near to a Russian victory, and soon the balance will be restored with the new US missiles deliver.

This will then cause Russia to escalate and so on and on it goes. Personally, I see those prospects as the possible constructive discussion we can have here now.

When will America's Ukraine proxy eliminate a Russian ship or two of the Black Sea fleet? And when will Russia respond with an attack on US/Nato assets of comparable value?

Just one example of the possibilities that must eventually become inevitable.

This is not my attempt to start an armchair war with Americans, but rather a discussion on the many possible ways this war will spiral out of control.

Again, thank you for your study of the situation and for sharing it!

 

[ESay]

I found these statistics from 2015 on what the people wanted. Only 1% wanted Independent States

Eastern Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have now found this. It certainly does sound like it was Ukraine who was not in favour of Minsk 2 and the tiny 'Independent States' were known of by then.

What you need to know about Ukraine's separatist regions

Putin recognized the independence of Moscow-backed rebel regions in eastern Ukraine, a move that will further inflame tensions with the West.

www.cbsnews.com

There are so many nuances there. They just can't be covered in one thread. There tons of information about the events of 2014 and 2025, the Minsk agreements, talks about their implementation and so on. You are free to do your own research and build or own opinion on that. What I can say in conclusion is that every side has their own truth. There are no points of intersection.

 

[para bellum]

When people start doing things like trying to suggest an article is a lie because they have found or written something which does not like the site they are reading it from, we know they have no argument.

It's so much garbage that it's not worth the time. If you choose to believe that stuff, that's your choice. Not my problem.

 

[alexa]

It's so much garbage that it's not worth the time. If you choose to believe that stuff, that's your choice. Not my problem.

Max blumenthal is a Jew who is very critical of Israel. Israel hates him for that - and being a journalist.

If you did not find it a problem you would not be showing your ignorance repeatedly.