Germany and France Sellout Countries, Ukraine Shows!

[JimofPennsylvan]

Germany and France and the other European sellouts to Ukraine besides having despicable character aren't even acting smart with their inaction in giving the people of Ukraine the heavy weapons to drive the Russian aggressors out of Ukraine. Germany and France have a nice arrangement with the Euro currency it is not too high with respect to other currencies and it is stable it allows Germany to have a great export economy where foreign countries can afford to buy its products and this affordability features a lot of people being able to travel and stay in France providing it with a great tourism industry basically both the Germans and the French enjoy a nice standard of living because of the euro. The German and French governments are acting really super stupid in not doing everything they can to bring about the country of Ukraine winning this war and so getting their country back. Post Ukraine victory, Ukraine is going to be very prosperous long-term it has an outstanding agricultural economy and a good industrial economy which makes for an extremely strong economic base and as before this Russian instigated war Ukraine had a budding Information technology and internet related businesses economy which hold all the realistic promise for this prosperity. This outcome would allow Germany and France to facilitate Ukraine coming into the European Union, Ukraine wouldn't have to join the euro currency that isn't important what is crucially important is Ukraine helping Germany, France and northern European countries carry the economic drag of the southern European union countries many of these southern European countries have borrowed heavily to recover from the Great Recession and are dependent on debt to function. Currently Germany's and France's future with their southern siblings looks like lots of conflict to get them to practice austere fiscal restraint. An outstandingly prudent Germany and French would be thinking it would be awfully nice if the European Union had an economically strong Ukraine to help shoulder some of this European Union debt which would take the pressure off Germany and French to pressure their southern siblings to stop their addiction to debt. The governments of Germany and France could readily see a scenario in the future, granted it won't be for awhile, where leaders rise up in these Southern European countries and sell their people on let's drop the euro and go back to our own currency and get out from under all these onerous fiscal restraints. These southern European union countries then dump the euro and because these countries currencies has lower buying power compared to the euro they dial back being customers to the wealthy euro countries and the euro cycles higher compared to other currencies and it dramatically hurts major parts of the economies of these wealthy Euro countries.

This is the unfortunate situation for Ukraine, Russia is unleashing a bombing campaign on Eastern Ukraine the world hasn't seen since World War II, they are degrading the Ukrainian units in the East so extensively with this bombing the forces left cannot hold back the Russian Army from taking this Ukrainian land. The Ukrainian military is in desperate straights they need heavy weapons to do to the Russian Army on Ukrainian soil what the Russian Army currently is doing to the Ukrainian Army on Ukrainian soil. This is the critical point which good people throughout the world aren't missing, Germany and other major countries but especially Germany because it has a major size military weapons manufacturing industry, could be providing Ukraine with artillery guns, multi-launch rocket systems and tanks which could make a big difference in the progress and outcome of this war for Ukraine. This isn't cutting edge fighter plane or cruise missile technology at issue here these are weapons that have been around since the middle of last century.

Germany's and France's excuses for not providing Ukraine with these basic conventional weapons isn't flying. Their explanation for their failure is that giving such weapons to Ukraine might provoke Vladimir Putin to use tactical nuclear weapons or go to war with Nato. What Ukraine is doing its defending its own sovereign territory there is zero risk of Russia losing any of its sovereign territory out of this war; it is indefensible that Germany and France would allow a precedent to be set here where it is okay for major countries to allow themselves to be subjected to extortion so as to be blocked in helping another country defend itself because of the threat of nuclear war or even a conventional war. Another excuse Germany and France use is why help Ukraine with weapons that won't change the outcome of the war, Russia is too strong the land they take from Ukraine, Ukraine won't be able to take back because Russia has the capacities of a Military Superpower the lethal power Russia can unleash on the Ukrainian forces they cannot withstand, so why just continue the bloodshed of this war. This is too speculative a contention here although Russia is winning the war they are losing a lot of soldiers and fighters, Russian soldiers and fighters have families who are sensible that recognize that this war is unnecessary from the Russian people's perspective and will eventually exert significant pressure on the Russian government to end this war. Plus the export sanctions to Russia are negatively impacting the Russian economy, grounded commercial airline fleets and deprivation of technology will begin to take its toll.

Even if the Ukrainian people don't win this war, and me personally think they can but the sacrifice they will need to make in terms of their citizens loss of life and health and the meaning of this on Ukrainian families will be heartbreaking, the costs they will cause the Russian government to pay for its victory will be of priceless value to humanity in its deterrent value against authoritarian governments inclined to unlawfully take a neighbors sovereign territory in the future and so free countries throughout the world should help Ukraine with heavy weapons here. Also, if countries like Germany and France continue to turn their back on Ukraine against this Russian aggression it destroys confidence in the goodness of humanity which inspires people to stand up against brutal dictators and regimes. This self interested behavior here promulgates fear not hope in people they tend to think if I try to fight government bullies I cannot expect help from other countries or peoples everyone does what's in their own personal best interests people don't stick their neck out for other people so I should do what is in my best interests and don't challenge this bad authority. Encouraging such viewpoints is bad for the world, in part, that undercuts the whole theory behind the United Nations which one would think is that we are all in it together we look out for the other because we want the other to look out for us! One last note, I don't know if these leaders in all these wealthy countries throughout the world that haven't helped Ukraine militarily or that have only given token assistance in this area believe there is a God but this writer does. One doesn't have to be a prophet to see that God sees this Russian Instigated war as a crossroads for humanity where there is an opportunity here to put an evil evil dictator in Vladimir Putin permanently caged up in Russia so that the division, violence and abuse that Putin promotes and supports ends. It is a crossroads because if Vladimir Putin wins or gets a partial win out of this war he will continue to promulgate this major badness in the world thereby dramatically hurting the world. So he surely sees it that if you don't want to do at least your minimum and frankly relatively easy duty to help stop and contain this evil you don't only deserve not to be blessed but you have to account for the justice at issue here and not doing your duty!

 

[Donald H]

Germany and France and the other European sellouts to Ukraine besides having despicable character aren't even acting smart with their inaction in giving the people of Ukraine the heavy weapons to drive the Russian aggressors out of Ukraine.

Germany and France aren't afraid to contemplate the end game that America is promoting, but doesn't want the American people to think about.

But slowly and surely some 'are' starting to think about where this war is headed.

Still, very few have the courage to talk about the obvious.

 

[ESay]

A number of European countries are still afraid of 'provoking' Russia. Getting Ukraine in the EU and NATO is considered as some sort of 'provocation' by them.

In the nearest perspective, the most viable solution for Ukraine is closer cooperation and integration with Poland. Poland should become a window for Ukraine on European and international market.

 

[White 6]

Germany and France and the other European sellouts to Ukraine besides having despicable character aren't even acting smart with their inaction in giving the people of Ukraine the heavy weapons to drive the Russian aggressors out of Ukraine. Germany and France have a nice arrangement with the Euro currency it is not too high with respect to other currencies and it is stable it allows Germany to have a great export economy where foreign countries can afford to buy its products and this affordability features a lot of people being able to travel and stay in France providing it with a great tourism industry basically both the Germans and the French enjoy a nice standard of living because of the euro. The German and French governments are acting really super stupid in not doing everything they can to bring about the country of Ukraine winning this war and so getting their country back. Post Ukraine victory, Ukraine is going to be very prosperous long-term it has an outstanding agricultural economy and a good industrial economy which makes for an extremely strong economic base and as before this Russian instigated war Ukraine had a budding Information technology and internet related businesses economy which hold all the realistic promise for this prosperity. This outcome would allow Germany and France to facilitate Ukraine coming into the European Union, Ukraine wouldn't have to join the euro currency that isn't important what is crucially important is Ukraine helping Germany, France and northern European countries carry the economic drag of the southern European union countries many of these southern European countries have borrowed heavily to recover from the Great Recession and are dependent on debt to function. Currently Germany's and France's future with their southern siblings looks like lots of conflict to get them to practice austere fiscal restraint. An outstandingly prudent Germany and French would be thinking it would be awfully nice if the European Union had an economically strong Ukraine to help shoulder some of this European Union debt which would take the pressure off Germany and French to pressure their southern siblings to stop their addiction to debt. The governments of Germany and France could readily see a scenario in the future, granted it won't be for awhile, where leaders rise up in these Southern European countries and sell their people on let's drop the euro and go back to our own currency and get out from under all these onerous fiscal restraints. These southern European union countries then dump the euro and because these countries currencies has lower buying power compared to the euro they dial back being customers to the wealthy euro countries and the euro cycles higher compared to other currencies and it dramatically hurts major parts of the economies of these wealthy Euro countries.

This is the unfortunate situation for Ukraine, Russia is unleashing a bombing campaign on Eastern Ukraine the world hasn't seen since World War II, they are degrading the Ukrainian units in the East so extensively with this bombing the forces left cannot hold back the Russian Army from taking this Ukrainian land. The Ukrainian military is in desperate straights they need heavy weapons to do to the Russian Army on Ukrainian soil what the Russian Army currently is doing to the Ukrainian Army on Ukrainian soil. This is the critical point which good people throughout the world aren't missing, Germany and other major countries but especially Germany because it has a major size military weapons manufacturing industry, could be providing Ukraine with artillery guns, multi-launch rocket systems and tanks which could make a big difference in the progress and outcome of this war for Ukraine. This isn't cutting edge fighter plane or cruise missile technology at issue here these are weapons that have been around since the middle of last century.

Germany's and France's excuses for not providing Ukraine with these basic conventional weapons isn't flying. Their explanation for their failure is that giving such weapons to Ukraine might provoke Vladimir Putin to use tactical nuclear weapons or go to war with Nato. What Ukraine is doing its defending its own sovereign territory there is zero risk of Russia losing any of its sovereign territory out of this war; it is indefensible that Germany and France would allow a precedent to be set here where it is okay for major countries to allow themselves to be subjected to extortion so as to be blocked in helping another country defend itself because of the threat of nuclear war or even a conventional war. Another excuse Germany and France use is why help Ukraine with weapons that won't change the outcome of the war, Russia is too strong the land they take from Ukraine, Ukraine won't be able to take back because Russia has the capacities of a Military Superpower the lethal power Russia can unleash on the Ukrainian forces they cannot withstand, so why just continue the bloodshed of this war. This is too speculative a contention here although Russia is winning the war they are losing a lot of soldiers and fighters, Russian soldiers and fighters have families who are sensible that recognize that this war is unnecessary from the Russian people's perspective and will eventually exert significant pressure on the Russian government to end this war. Plus the export sanctions to Russia are negatively impacting the Russian economy, grounded commercial airline fleets and deprivation of technology will begin to take its toll.

Even if the Ukrainian people don't win this war, and me personally think they can but the sacrifice they will need to make in terms of their citizens loss of life and health and the meaning of this on Ukrainian families will be heartbreaking, the costs they will cause the Russian government to pay for its victory will be of priceless value to humanity in its deterrent value against authoritarian governments inclined to unlawfully take a neighbors sovereign territory in the future and so free countries throughout the world should help Ukraine with heavy weapons here. Also, if countries like Germany and France continue to turn their back on Ukraine against this Russian aggression it destroys confidence in the goodness of humanity which inspires people to stand up against brutal dictators and regimes. This self interested behavior here promulgates fear not hope in people they tend to think if I try to fight government bullies I cannot expect help from other countries or peoples everyone does what's in their own personal best interests people don't stick their neck out for other people so I should do what is in my best interests and don't challenge this bad authority. Encouraging such viewpoints is bad for the world, in part, that undercuts the whole theory behind the United Nations which one would think is that we are all in it together we look out for the other because we want the other to look out for us! One last note, I don't know if these leaders in all these wealthy countries throughout the world that haven't helped Ukraine militarily or that have only given token assistance in this area believe there is a God but this writer does. One doesn't have to be a prophet to see that God sees this Russian Instigated war as a crossroads for humanity where there is an opportunity here to put an evil evil dictator in Vladimir Putin permanently caged up in Russia so that the division, violence and abuse that Putin promotes and supports ends. It is a crossroads because if Vladimir Putin wins or gets a partial win out of this war he will continue to promulgate this major badness in the world thereby dramatically hurting the world. So he surely sees it that if you don't want to do at least your minimum and frankly relatively easy duty to help stop and contain this evil you don't only deserve not to be blessed but you have to account for the justice at issue here and not doing your duty!

I cannot say you have convinced me France and Germany are turning their back on Ukraine and the Russian invasion.

 

[Donald H]

A number of European countries are still afraid of 'provoking' Russia.

How silly of them!

Getting Ukraine in the EU and NATO is considered as some sort of 'provocation' by them.

The biggest resistance to allowing the Ukraine into Nato is coming from Europe's Nato members that understand that an aggresssion by one Nato member is an aggression by all.

Clearly they don't relish becoming nuclear wastelands.

In the nearest perspective, the most viable solution for Ukraine is closer cooperation and integration with Poland. Poland should become a window for Ukraine on European and international market.

Integration with Poland makes Poland a legitimate target of Russia.

But that's an interesting twist when one starts to consider the established rules of the war, as it relates to the rules being imposed on Nato members by the US.

 

[Donald H]

I cannot say you have convinced me France and Germany are turning their back on Ukraine and the Russian invasion.
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Good points there, but everything is cautiously kept within the rules of the war as decided by Russia.
However, it's very useful on us being able to discuss some specific weapons and the rules that govern.

Consider White, if we're going to start a life or death fight between us, I'm not going to agree with any limitations you might want to impose upon my ability to kill you. I would expect the same of you.

 

[ESay]

How silly of them!

The biggest resistance to allowing the Ukraine into Nato is coming from Europe's Nato members that understand that an aggresssion by one Nato member is an aggression by all.

Clearly they don't relish becoming nuclear wastelands.

Integration with Poland makes Poland a legitimate target of Russia.

But that's an interesting twist when one starts to consider the established rules of the war, as it relates to the rules being imposed on Nato members by the US.

Dude, you have already showed your ignorance. So, spare my time, please.

Jesus, 'a legitimate target of Russia'. What a silly shit.

 

[Donald H]

Dude, you have already showed your ignorance. So, spare my time, please.

Jesus, 'a legitimate target of Russia'. What a silly shit.

I'm just trying to draw you into a fuller discussion.

But that doesn't appear to be necessary when you got involve here where you thought you were safe. You decide for yourself and just consider me ignorant.

No Nato country is a legitimate target for Russia.
And Russia isn't a legitimate target for the US or Nato countries.

The Ukraine is Russia's only legitimate target and so if the fight continues long enough it will be a fight to the last Ukrainian.

Or the last Russian? Whatever you find the most satisfying?

 

[ESay]

I'm just trying to draw you into a fuller discussion.

But that doesn't appear to be necessary when you got involve here where you thought you were safe. You decide for yourself and just consider me ignorant.

No Nato country is a legitimate target for Russia.
And Russia isn't a legitimate target for the US or Nato countries.

The Ukraine is Russia's only legitimate target and so if the fight continues long enough it will be a fight to the last Ukrainian.

Or the last Russian? Whatever you find the most satisfying?

In what form of your twisted mind is Ukraine 'a legitimate target' for Russia?

 

[White 6]

Good points there, but everything is cautiously kept within the rules of the war as decided by Russia.
However, it's very useful on us being able to discuss some specific weapons and the rules that govern.

Consider White, if we're going to start a life or death fight between us, I'm not going to agree with any limitations you might want to impose upon my ability to kill you. I would expect the same of you.

When it comes to war, I would rather avoid, if can without giving the enemy a "gimme" and don't think that is what is being done, at this point. I do not support all European countries going for any all out war on Russia, as Ukraine is not a NATO country.
I absolutely have no problem with Ukraine fighting an all out war to defeat Russia and it's invasion by any means, as is their right of self defense. We recently approved shipping what the news media is calling long range weapons (they are not) to use as counter battery fire, primarily against Russian artillery. If Russia fire artillary from outside the border and in Russian territory, I have no problem with these weapons being used to target the enemy artillery at it's source, no matter what side of the border it is being it is being fired from. For Ukraine, it is live or die. They should act and react like it. Until Russia attacks a NATO country, I would simply give or sell Ukraine anything they wanted. This is not all out war for us or NATO, unless one of us is attacted.

 

[Donald H]

When it comes to war, I would rather avoid, if can without giving the enemy a "gimme" and don't think that is what is being done, at this point. I do not support all European countries going for any all out war on Russia, as Ukraine is not a NATO country.
I absolutely have no problem with Ukraine fighting an all out war to defeat Russia and it's invasion by any means, as is their right of self defense. We recently approved shipping what the news media is calling long range weapons (they are not) to use as counter battery fire, primarily against Russian artillery. If Russia fire artillary from outside the border and in Russian territory, I have no problem with these weapons being used to target the enemy artillery at it's source, no matter what side of the border it is being it is being fired from. For Ukraine, it is live or die. They should act and react like it. Until Russia attacks a NATO country, I would simply give or sell Ukraine anything they wanted. This is not all out war for us or NATO, unless one of us is attacted.

You're doing nothing but avoiding the issues. I understand that's what you have to do because it's expected of all Americans. You're dancing with the world's biggest lie, that says America isn't at war with Russia.

What would you suppose could happen if Russia resorts to nuclear weapons against Ukraine?

Would that then make it America's war against Russia?

Now you can say 'yes' because of the fallout on Nato countries, right?

 

[White 6]

You're doing nothing but avoiding the issues. I understand that's what you have to do because it's expected of all Americans. You're dancing with the world's biggest lie, that says America isn't at war with Russia.

What would you suppose could happen if Russia resorts to nuclear weapons against Ukraine?

Would that then make it America's war against Russia?

Now you can say 'yes' because of the fallout on Nato countries, right?

Actually have more of a warrior nature and no fan of the Russia or the USSR back in the day. But, I was given a viewpoint almost at echelons above reality as we called it back in the day, first on assignment and then invited back. I remembered well, discussions and study in Actions other than War, during Command and General Staff School, and quickly found when given the viewpoint, Americans had no clue what was done in far-flung places, things and actions, they never heard about, in order that we do not go into some poorly thought out, war. I know the mechanics, operations and tactics and trained others. With what I know, have seen, and been privy to, I am not one you will hear or read, pushing for it. It is a very messy business, and dangerous for all.