Europe's Path to Self Destruction

[ESay]

Are you saying it would have been impossible for Russia to do that by any method. I am not a military person but I am thinking of flying objects.

I am saying it was senseless for Russia to use its resources, planes, and missiles just to destroy the city from the air. Especially, when Ukrainian air defense systems weren't completely destroyed, as it was claimed by them in the first days. Bombardment of Baghdad hadn't been carried out just for fun, either.

 

[alexa]

I

I am saying it was senseless for Russia to use its resources, planes, and missiles just to destroy the city from the air. Especially, when Ukrainian air defense systems weren't completely destroyed, as it was claimed by them in the first days. Bombardment of Baghdad hadn't been carried out just for fun, either.

So what was the reason for the destruction of Bagdad

 

[ESay]

I

So what was the reason for the destruction of Bagdad

It was attacked by the US Air force in support of a ground offence campaign, no?

 

[alexa]

It was attacked by the US Air force in support of a ground offence campaign, no?

I wasn't following it that closely. I remember the fiasco of taking the statue down. The UK had its biggest protest ever against us going to war against Iraq. I think it was about 2,000,000 people. Are you saying that there was a ground offensive going into Bagdad and they thought Bagdad was full of military and no one else? Sounds strange. The problem with cities is that they are usually full of people, just regular citizens. The Iraq war was illegal according to Kofi Annan.

 

[ESay]

I wasn't following it that closely. I remember the fiasco of taking the statue down. The UK had its biggest protest ever against us going to war against Iraq. I think it was about 2,000,000 people. Are you saying that there was a ground offensive going into Bagdad and they thought Bagdad was full of military and no one else? Sounds strange. The problem with cities is that they are usually full of people, just regular citizens.

Yes, cities are usually full of regular people. I just don't get your point. You justify Russian aggression by the Iraq war? Or you are trying to claim that the Russians are more 'humane' and cities full of regular people can stop them?

I don't want to disappoint you, but the examples of Mariupol and Severodonetsk and the host of smaller towns throughout Ukraine don't fall in your logic. Or you can take a look on Grozny after Russian assault in the Second Chechen war as an example of their humanism.

 

[para bellum]

Well Baghdad wasn't destroyed. The US targeted Military command and control headquarters, electrical and communications centers and air defenses, in and around Baghdad, concurrently with the same targets at the Divisional levels. The idea being that we wanted the leadership in Baghdad to be cut off from their subordinate commands and be under pressure from the city officials to restore order and utilities.

While they are busy dealing with that, we would go after the secondary targets like airfields and bases, who would be waiting for instructions from Baghdad that weren't coming...

 

[alexa]

Yes, cities are usually full of regular people. I just don't get your point. You justify Russian aggression by the Iraq war? Or you are trying to claim that the Russians are more 'humane' and cities full of regular people can stop them?

I don't want to disappoint you, but the examples of Mariupol and Severodonetsk and the host of smaller towns throughout Ukraine don't fall in your logic. Or you can take a look on Grozny after Russian assault in the Second Chechen war as an example of their humanism.

No, I am well aware that some of your cities look like they have been totally destroyed, I have spoken about that with you before. I am not trying to say anything more than I have. People frequently make the point of Russia not destroying Kiev. One suggestion I have heard is that they feel it is as much theirs. I believe if Kiev was destroyed, morale would plummet. If we were having this conversation face to face I would be thinking you were paranoid or had something to hide. This thread is not so much about Ukraine itself and I have not as yet criticised Ukraine. Russia has completely rebuilt Grozny and that doesn't mean I believe the people living there think all is well. The one documentary I have seen on them had them really scared about the people who came in the night to take them away. Oh the reason I mentioned Bagdad was because the people on the OP video were comparing Russia's treatment of Kiev with the US of Bagdad and other places.

 

[ESay]

e to face I would be thinking you were paranoid or had something to hide

This part was the most interesting. What is this 'something' I have to hide?

 

[alexa]

Well Baghdad wasn't destroyed. The US targeted Military command and control headquarters, electrical and communications centers and air defenses, in and around Baghdad, concurrently with the same targets at the Divisional levels. The idea being that we wanted the leadership in Baghdad to be cut off from their subordinate commands and be under pressure from the city officials to restore order and utilities.

While they are busy dealing with that, we would go after the secondary targets like airfields and bases, who would be waiting for instructions from Baghdad that weren't coming...

Well I remember this

Baghdad suffered serious damage to its civilian infrastructure, economy, and cultural inheritance from the fighting, as well as looting and arson. During the invasion, the Al-Yarmouk Hospital in south Baghdad saw a steady rate of about 100 new patients an hour.[7]

Battle of Baghdad (2003) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and the bit boldened taking a very long time.

 

[alexa]

This part was the most interesting. What is this 'something' I have to hide?

No idea, you just are ignoring the OP and seem very reactive. When people are reactive it usually means something has got to them.

Edit: Of course the OP suggests Ukraine may be being used. I have mentioned before to you that that is a way some on see things. I can understand that that would be uncomfortable for you and I am not being patronising I am being human.

 

[ESay]

No idea, you just are ignoring the OP and seem very reactive. When people are reactive it usually means something has got to them.

Edit: Of course the OP suggests Ukraine may be being used. I have mentioned before to you that that is a way some on see things. I can understand that that would be uncomfortable for you and I am not being patronising I am being human.

I never denied that Ukraine can be used as a tool in the US realpolitik. And I understand that the US government supports Ukraine not out of their good will, but out of their desire to fight an enemy on a far frontline.

About the OP, I addressed it in the post 2. It is impossible to appease Russia. The Russians understand only the right of the strength.

 

[alexa]

I never denied that Ukraine can be used as a tool in the US realpolitik. And I understand that the US government supports Ukraine not out of their good will, but out of their desire to fight an enemy on a far frontline.

About the OP, I addressed it in the post 2. It is impossible to appease Russia. The Russians understand only the right of the strength.

OK then we are not far away on your first paragraph.

It may be true that Russia only understands strength or might I suspect you mean. There appear to be quite a few countries like this. However Putin has been very keen to get the EU into his Eurasian Union. I understand Germany and Russia have a long on and off relationship going back a very long time. I keep noticing people talking about this new World Order we are moving into - as yet it would appear that the only thing noticed is that the old is crumbling away. Obviously the climate work is going to change things massively and that is happening more and more now with droughts and food shortages. It is looking like the old Western life of ease and comfort may soon be a thing of the past. I believe we will be able to survive and have a better life if we are able to work together. Given that Germany in particular has a long time relationship with Russia and no doubt has things which Russia would want, I don't see why they would not be able to make changes that Europe found acceptable and apparently Gas and Oil are not the only natural resources Russia has. She apparently has a lot of other things - minerals and things which may be needed for tech and so on which could make a big difference in the future.

Here is a democracy Now interview. They are talking about the fact that the US was provoking Russia and trying to take advantage of her when she was weak by trying to expand NATO as much as possible. Both Amy and the man she is interviewing are very careful to always make it clear that Russia is the one in the wrong and is acting with great brutality in Ukraine....but both are very near saying or maybe they do say that if the US had not acted as it did - trying to get Ukraine into NATO, then Ukraine would not be experiencing what it is now.

 

[para bellum]

Well I remember this

The US did a good job of taking Baghdad but had no plan what to do next.

What we didn't do was indiscriminately bomb civilian targets. We told people to stay in their homes, and we stayed away from residential areas.

We didn't plan for an insurgency, we didn't really even understand the culture- and we made a lot of mistakes.

None of which gives Russia license to destroy Ukraine.

 

[ESay]

OK then we are not far away on your first paragraph.

It may be true that Russia only understands strength or might I suspect you mean. There appear to be quite a few countries like this. However Putin has been very keen to get the EU into his Eurasian Union. I understand Germany and Russia have a long on and off relationship going back a very long time. I keep noticing people talking about this new World Order we are moving into - as yet it would appear that the only thing noticed is that the old is crumbling away. Obviously the climate work is going to change things massively and that is happening more and more now with droughts and food shortages. It is looking like the old Western life of ease and comfort may soon be a thing of the past. I believe we will be able to survive and have a better life if we are able to work together. Given that Germany in particular has a long time relationship with Russia and no doubt has things which Russia would want, I don't see why they would not be able to make changes that Europe found acceptable and apparently Gas and Oil are not the only natural resources Russia has. She apparently has a lot of other things - minerals and things which may be needed for tech and so on which could make a big difference in the future.

Here is a democracy Now interview. They are talking about the fact that the US was provoking Russia and trying to take advantage of her when she was weak by trying to expand NATO as much as possible. Both Amy and the man she is interviewing are very careful to always make it clear that Russia is the one in the wrong and is acting with great brutality in Ukraine....but both are very near saying or maybe they do say that if the US had not acted as it did - trying to get Ukraine into NATO, then Ukraine would not be experiencing what it is now.

I don't think think that this Eurasion Union was ever a viable thing. There was the time when talks about a common area from Lisbon to Vladivostok emerged here and there. But that was a wishful thinking and nothing more.

Of course, Germany and France wanted an economic cooperation with Russia, where they could freely buy Russian energy resources and get access to Russian market. But this cooperation would highly concern East European countries, where memories are still fresh about Germany and Russia resolving their disputes at the cost of these states.

You are either build a common economic and security area in Europe which include concerns of all members, including the Eastern ones, or this common area should be divided on several smaller ones, every one of which pursues their own interests.

Of course, the world now is in deep transformation. And the period of West European social states like they were in the post-war period is already gone.

 

[alexa]

The US did a good job of taking Baghdad but had no plan what to do next.

What we didn't do was indiscriminately bomb civilian targets. We told people to stay in their homes, and we stayed away from residential areas.

We didn't plan for an insurgency, we didn't really even understand the culture- and we made a lot of mistakes.

None of which gives Russia license to destroy Ukraine.

Your opinion and too long ago for me to remember that much. However the Iraq War was illegal. According to Andrew Baceivh in the Democracy Now interview I left, the number of people killed there and in Afghanistan amount to around 900,000 people. Some estimate the number of people killed by the Iraq war and its aftermath to be 4,000,000. The US showed itself to be disgusting in the way it treated prisoners many of whom were murdered when guilty of no crimes, The British also killed innocent civilians it had captured never mind those it had not. Iraqis claimed fighters came to their homes and killed people and here I am not talking about the insurgency. The Iraq war was fought on a lie. The UK was told it was being fought because Iraq was on the verge of producing weapons which could get to our shores and destroy us in 45 mins. Later our Intelligence said the danger of Iraq was 'sexed up'. Not all our intelligence were happy with what they were told to do which was to create some evidence to justify the war. This was what they were told to do after they had informed the government that Iraq was really no danger to us. Iran was a lot more. Even now everyone would like to leave Iran alone as it would not be a walk over like Iraq. One of the reasons given for the Iraq war was that Bush wanted to finish what his dad started. Another is oil and a third is to help the Israelis by destroying countries which were against it - going along with the report 'A clean Break' written by Americans for Netanyahu on how Israel should stop trying to make friends with its neighbours who they had difficulties with but just work to destroy them. There was no reason for the Iraq War which with its aftermath caused the death of up to 4,000,000 Muslims and a similar amount of refugees all for nothing.

No one has said it gives Russia the right to destroy Ukraine but people are mentioning it alongside the war with Ukraine. Russia's behaviour is being spoken of as the worst behaviour a country could do, but people are pointing out both the US provocation for it and that the US was involved in far worst crimes in Iraq. According to Baceivh in the Democracy Now interview, it was well known to the American's that right across all of Russia's military the idea of Ukraine joining NATO was genuinely felt as a direct threat to their safety and it is similar to the US and Cuba so that is understandable. Nonetheless the US deliberately pushed for it. The Minsk Agreement which Zelenskyy was elected with 70% of the vote to finish and stop the war in the East leading to peace with Russia, was what could have achieved that. Zelenskyy did not do what he was elected to.

By the 16th of March Zelenskyy had conceded Ukraine would not join Nato

Zelensky concedes Ukraine will not join Nato

why could he not have done this three weeks or so earlier and saved the people of Ukraine the mass killing of their people and destruction of their state. Unfortunately the US is not an innocent here either.

 

[alexa]

I don't think think that this Eurasion Union was ever a viable thing. There was the time when talks about a common area from Lisbon to Vladivostok emerged here and there. But that was a wishful thinking and nothing more.

Of course, Germany and France wanted an economic cooperation with Russia, where they could freely buy Russian energy resources and get access to Russian market. But this cooperation would highly concern East European countries, where memories are still fresh about Germany and Russia resolving their disputes at the cost of these states.

You are either build a common economic and security area in Europe which include concerns of all members, including the Eastern ones, or this common area should be divided on several smaller ones, every one of which pursues their own interests.

Of course, the world now is in deep transformation. And the period of West European social states like they were in the post-war period is already gone.

OK, the OP video first ten minutes argues that Europe is destroying itself simply by giving up or reducing Russia Gas and oil at the moment. That economically this is going to leave them in ruin so why are they doing this to themselves. It says papers suggest Europeans are terrified that Russia will be bringing its tanks to all of Europe even France and Germany. They may be being sarcastic there. I cannot imagine why Western Europe could have any fear of this....so that is one thing. Then they get into why they think this is happening which really has nothing to do with Ukraine except it being an easy vehicle for Russia's destruction which I do not think anyone could deny is the interest of the US. I have heard several American's saying it is so. They believe that the reason the US is wanting the destruction of Russia is partly so that it (and China) will not change the US's position as No 1 in the world but also to get its hands on the seeming mass of Russian natural resources which will seemingly be invaluable in the future. They suggest that for the US it is good to get Europe fighting this war with Russia as it will ruin them and make the likelihood of them moving closer to Asia/Russia far less likely. The Ukraine war would leave the EU economically destroyed while the US no longer has any need of Europe and itself moves towards Asia. Europe moving towards Russia does fit roughly with Dougan's plan which Putin certainly at one time had accepted. Now I get the criticisms but people change and circumstances make people change. Never mind the normal intrigue which we get up to we now have the effects of climate change on the horizon and that is going to make a massive change to how we need to live. With Germany's past with Russia and Europe and Russia being neighbours, it makes sense that with some mutual outside 'enemy' (climate problems) they would work together and help each other where possible, The question is, is the US deliberately creating the situation where it can get the benefit of Russia's natural resources rather than Europe and is that a large part of the reason for the war Ukraine is fighting - not from Ukraine's point of view of course.

 

[ESay]

Your opinion and too long ago for me to remember that much. However the Iraq War was illegal. According to Andrew Baceivh in the Democracy Now interview I left, the number of people killed there and in Afghanistan amount to around 900,000 people. Some estimate the number of people killed by the Iraq war and its aftermath to be 4,000,000. The US showed itself to be disgusting in the way it treated prisoners many of whom were murdered when guilty of no crimes, The British also killed innocent civilians it had captured never mind those it had not. Iraqis claimed fighters came to their homes and killed people and here I am not talking about the insurgency. The Iraq war was fought on a lie. The UK was told it was being fought because Iraq was on the verge of producing weapons which could get to our shores and destroy us in 45 mins. Later our Intelligence said the danger of Iraq was 'sexed up'. Not all our intelligence were happy with what they were told to do which was to create some evidence to justify the war. This was what they were told to do after they had informed the government that Iraq was really no danger to us. Iran was a lot more. Even now everyone would like to leave Iran alone as it would not be a walk over like Iraq. One of the reasons given for the Iraq war was that Bush wanted to finish what his dad started. Another is oil and a third is to help the Israelis by destroying countries which were against it - going along with the report 'A clean Break' written by Americans for Netanyahu on how Israel should stop trying to make friends with its neighbours who they had difficulties with but just work to destroy them. There was no reason for the Iraq War which with its aftermath caused the death of up to 4,000,000 Muslims and a similar amount of refugees all for nothing.

No one has said it gives Russia the right to destroy Ukraine but people are mentioning it alongside the war with Ukraine. Russia's behaviour is being spoken of as the worst behaviour a country could do, but people are pointing out both the US provocation for it and that the US was involved in far worst crimes in Iraq. According to Baceivh in the Democracy Now interview, it was well known to the American's that right across all of Russia's military the idea of Ukraine joining NATO was genuinely felt as a direct threat to their safety and it is similar to the US and Cuba so that is understandable. Nonetheless the US deliberately pushed for it. The Minsk Agreement which Zelenskyy was elected with 70% of the vote to finish and stop the war in the East leading to peace with Russia, was what could have achieved that. Zelenskyy did not do what he was elected to.

By the 16th of March Zelenskyy had conceded Ukraine would not join Nato

Zelensky concedes Ukraine will not join Nato

why could he not have done this three weeks or so earlier and saved the people of Ukraine the mass killing of their people and destruction of their state. Unfortunately the US is not an innocent here either.

Your views based on so great fallacy that I don't know from where to start. Ukraine joining NATO was a distant future in any case, and that was one of Russia's lying pretext to start the war.

If you want to talk about the Minsk agreements, you should at least read about them, or more correctly, what exactly is written there (obviously, you haven't done this, have you?).

The agreements required concessions from the both sides, but Russia pushed for their implementation only from their point of view. In short, exploiting these agreements Moscow wanted to create in Ukraine an alternative center of power that can block decisions of Ukrainian government on internal and foreign affairs.

 

[ESay]

OK, the OP video first ten minutes argues that Europe is destroying itself simply by giving up or reducing Russia Gas and oil at the moment. That economically this is going to leave them in ruin so why are they doing this to themselves. It says papers suggest Europeans are terrified that Russia will be bringing its tanks to all of Europe even France and Germany. They may be being sarcastic there. I cannot imagine why Western Europe could have any fear of this....so that is one thing. Then they get into why they think this is happening which really has nothing to do with Ukraine except it being an easy vehicle for Russia's destruction which I do not think anyone could deny is the interest of the US. I have heard several American's saying it is so. They believe that the reason the US is wanting the destruction of Russia is partly so that it (and China) will not change the US's position as No 1 in the world but also to get its hands on the seeming mass of Russian natural resources which will seemingly be invaluable in the future. They suggest that for the US it is good to get Europe fighting this war with Russia as it will ruin them and make the likelihood of them moving closer to Asia/Russia far less likely. Europe would leave the EU economically destroyed while the US no longer has any need of Europe and itself moves towards Asia. doeEurope moving towards Russia does fit roughly with Dougan's plan which Putin certainly at one time had accepted. Now I get the criticisms but people change and circumstances make people change. Never mind the normal intrigue which we get up to we now have the effects of climate change on the horizon and that is going to make a massive change to how we need to live. With Germany's past with Russia it makes sense that with some mutual outside 'enemy' (climate problems)they would work together and help each other where possible, The question is, is the US deliberately creating the situation where it can get the benefit of Russia's natural resources rather than Europe and is that a large part of the reason for the war Ukraine is fighting - not from Ukraine's point of view of course.

I said it above but I seem to have to repeat it once again. Yes, Russian tanks wouldn't have showed up near Berlin or Paris. But ask about that in Warsaw or Tallinn, and you would find out that people's concern about them there is much stronger.

And you, West Europeans, should finally realize that you either take part in European security architecture which comprises all of Europe or you should get out of NATO and re-formate the EU to the point as it was in the post-war times (I.e. includes only West European countries).

You can't do business as usual with Russia and hope to get economic benefits out of that, while it openly threats you Eastern flanc.

 

[alexa]

Your views based on so great fallacy that I don't know from where to start. Ukraine joining NATO was a distant future in any case, and that was one of Russia's lying pretext to start the war.

If you want to talk about the Minsk agreements, you should at least read about them, or more correctly, what exactly is written there (obviously, you haven't done this, have you?).

The agreements required concessions from the both sides, but Russia pushed for their implementation only from their point of view. In short, exploiting these agreements Moscow wanted to create in Ukraine an alternative center of power that can block decisions of Ukrainian government on internal and foreign affairs.

True I have not read the agreement and will. Nonetheless sorting the problems in the East and peace with Russia was what Zelenskyy was elected to do.

He told reporters he would "reboot" peace talks with the separatists fighting Ukrainian forces and volunteers in the east.
"I think that we will have personnel changes. In any case we will continue in the direction of the Minsk [peace] talks and head towards concluding a ceasefire," he said.
There are sporadic skirmishes and the situation also remains tense around Crimea, annexed from Ukraine by Russia in 2014.

Ukraine election: Comedian Zelensky wins presidency by landslide

Now as far as the first part 'rebooting peace talks with separatists fighting Ukrainian forces' something must have happened because there are reports of Zelenskyy telling the Azov battalion that he wants them to put down their arms and them refusing and basically threatening Zelensky's life and this changing Zelenskyy.

You say there were other reasons for Russia starting this war. I take it you are accepting that Russia's fear of Ukraine joining NATO was genuine and you claim there were other reasons for the war. I have heard of other reasons as well. I have heard the problems began when Zelenskyy decided he was going to take back Crimea and that there was a massive increase in fighting in the Donetsk region in the days prior to Russia's 'intervention' initiated by the Ukranian's and that is what caused Russia's war against Ukraine.

 

[alexa]

ESay I was a little too quick in saying I would read the Minsk agreements. I am guessing it would probably take weeks. It would be better if you said why you believe Zelenskyy could not fulfil what he was elected to in that regard. I have only heard things like France and other countries not fulfilling their part. If you tell me why you believe it was impossible for Zelenaskyy to sign the Minsk agreements I will look that up.