End the Occupation

[Andylusion]

Where do you think the borders are??? Where???

I second this. P F Tinmore suggested there exist boundaries where it is easily understood which territory is Israel and which is Palestine. So just tell us, FTLOG.

 

[RoccoR]

Shusha, et al,

Yes, agreed... P F Tinmore has somehow imprinted on the idea that Article 30 (Nationality) trumps Article 16 (Territroy). And that the entire territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine (less everything East of the Jordan River) belongs to the Arab Palestinian.

Where do you think the borders are??? Where???

I second this. P F Tinmore suggested there exist boundaries where it is easily understood which territory is Israel and which is Palestine. So just tell us, FTLOG.

(COMMENT)

Also, he seems to think that under order (I don't know what authority might give it), Israel will just give-up that territory and hand it back to the UN (from which it was prior to independence).

He seems to have this notion that even there is a territorial change in hands, that the appreciation in value will not be born by the Arab Palestinians.

And it appears that someone has told him (or convinced him) that Security Barrier MUST follow the 1949 Armistice Line, that nothing is adjustable.

I think that if the Arab Palestinians had something going for them, the Jewish industrialist would be clambering at the Knesset trying to reach an accommodations. But that certainly does not seem to be the case.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[member]

Ye didn't read the post carefully. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about myself under threat from those dastardly jews. I said we are sick about hearing & reading about it. Israel bullies Palestine and will never stop until they are nuked off the map. Simples.

"Ye didn't read the post carefully. Go back and read it again"

ok.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Good question. Where did they say Israel's borders were?

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

 

[Hollie]

Good question. Where did they say Israel's borders were?

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

Follow your script please when you're unable to address the comments of others.

Nice dodge™

 

[member]

Ye didn't read the post carefully. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about myself under threat from those dastardly jews. I said we are sick about hearing & reading about it. Israel bullies Palestine and will never stop until they are nuked off the map. Simples.

"Ye didn't read the post carefully. Go back and read it again"

ok.

​

"I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized. Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore..."






"Shusha, present company excepted, I hate all of humanity, ( ) and so I don't care if I do come off as anti-semite..."






“At what expense SIR?!!!!!!!!! At what expense do we hold onto a shitty spit of land whilst generation after generation lives in strife & violence & terror? Move the hell out for PEACE SAKE. The Israelis are backed by the richest nations on earth. Screw the whole "people" "our land" horseshit and spare your lives! It ain't worth it. The region is a horrible place to live. It belongs under water. Are Palestinians elitist for wanting their own country? Yes, it is purely an ego thing. If there was no horrible, big bully aggression by Israel and their backers, then they could have their land. Yes, they are elitist-egoists for being willing to put generation after generation through terror & violence just for a piece of land. Save yourselves and thrive somewhere else."

​

 

[theliq]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

Not enough of you neo Nazi's to ever be in a position of power strong enough to fulfil the Aryan final solution. By this time the world will be sick and tired of Nazism hidden behind anti zionism and will have wiped out the Nazi's completely.

EXCEPT THE NAZIS WHO LIVE IN ISRAEL I PRESUME

 

[theliq]

Until such time that BOTH sides decide to talk unambiguously (with the same definitions), I see the dispute lasting indefinitely.

Yep.

It is actually impossible for Israel to unilaterally "end the occupation" until the territory under "occupation" is defined and until the conditions of "occupation" are defined, in treaty with the compliance and acknowledgement of both parties.

Else we end up where we are now -- with self-governing Palestinian territories in Areas A and B and Gaza still considered "occupied".

And, of course, everyone knows this and has known it for decades, hence nearly every legal commentary on the conflict since 181 using the wording, "to be determined in permanent negotiations", or similar.


My suggestion would be something along the lines of a contiguous northern area and a contiguous southern area in the West Bank, with a connecting highway between them. Gaza's boundaries remain as they are.

The point of those boundaries would be to give Palestine contiguous territory with 95% of Arab Palestinians within them, as well as the majority of Area C, except where there are large Jewish settlements.

Obviously there are a whole host of issues to be addressed which come along with this, but would someone on Team Palestine take up the task of addressing why these suggested boundaries may or may not be a fair starting point?

How come you have become such an Authority of the Palestinian-Israeli Schism,when you know so little,Delusions of Grandure ???? Methinks

 

[Shusha]

Good question. Where did they say Israel's borders were?

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

You're kidding, right?

I asked how Israel can end the occupation.

I asked for a definition of what territory Israel occupies.

I asked for a definition of what constitutes "occupation".

I asked for a solution to the conflict.

I asked for a response to a starting point for a permanent boundary between Israel and wanna-be Palestine.

You have not addressed ANY of these issues and have some how managed to go down a rabbit hole expecting the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria to address the question of Israel's permanent international boundaries even though I have demonstrated they not only did not address such issues but deliberately used language to asset that no permanent boundaries were being drawn.

And you accuse ME of ducking the question? Give me a break.


If you want to argue that Israel doesn't exist and gets nothing and that the whole territory from river to sea is Palestine and not Israel and that the only way to end the occupation is for Israel to be eliminated -- just go ahead and say it! Because THAT is exactly purpose of this thread -- to demonstrate that it is impossible for Israel to "end the occupation".

 

[Shusha]

How come you have become such an Authority of the Palestinian-Israeli Schism,when you know so little,Delusions of Grandure ???? Methinks

Awwww. Come on now, Steve. Don't cop out on me. How do the evil Zionists end the occupation? What territory must they abandon and what conditions must they meet?

Remember you believe in two States for two peoples, right? You very explicitly told me so. We agree. We are on the same side. So...how does this conflict actually get solved? What should Israel do to "end the occupation"?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Good question. Where did they say Israel's borders were?

Well, pertinent to this thread they assert that they do not prejudice any future settlement or negotiation. Which, of course, permits future settlement between the parties and negotiation. Which is the point of this thread. Care to address it? Care to be the one on Team Palestine who actually steps up to try to discuss solutions?

You ducked the question.

You're kidding, right?

I asked how Israel can end the occupation.

I asked for a definition of what territory Israel occupies.

I asked for a definition of what constitutes "occupation".

I asked for a solution to the conflict.

I asked for a response to a starting point for a permanent boundary between Israel and wanna-be Palestine.

You have not addressed ANY of these issues and have some how managed to go down a rabbit hole expecting the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria to address the question of Israel's permanent international boundaries even though I have demonstrated they not only did not address such issues but deliberately used language to asset that no permanent boundaries were being drawn.

And you accuse ME of ducking the question? Give me a break.


If you want to argue that Israel doesn't exist and gets nothing and that the whole territory from river to sea is Palestine and not Israel and that the only way to end the occupation is for Israel to be eliminated -- just go ahead and say it! Because THAT is exactly purpose of this thread -- to demonstrate that it is impossible for Israel to "end the occupation".

the question of Israel's permanent international boundaries even though I have demonstrated they not only did not address such issues​

Yes they did. You just didn't want to see it.

 

[Andylusion]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

Not enough of you neo Nazi's to ever be in a position of power strong enough to fulfil the Aryan final solution. By this time the world will be sick and tired of Nazism hidden behind anti zionism and will have wiped out the Nazi's completely.

EXCEPT THE NAZIS WHO LIVE IN ISRAEL I PRESUME

I don't see Israelis proposing mass slaughter. I *do* see Palestinians proposing pushing Israel into the sea.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Shusha, et al,

Yes, agreed... P F Tinmore has somehow imprinted on the idea that Article 30 (Nationality) trumps Article 16 (Territroy). And that the entire territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine (less everything East of the Jordan River) belongs to the Arab Palestinian.

Where do you think the borders are??? Where???

I second this. P F Tinmore suggested there exist boundaries where it is easily understood which territory is Israel and which is Palestine. So just tell us, FTLOG.

(COMMENT)

Also, he seems to think that under order (I don't know what authority might give it), Israel will just give-up that territory and hand it back to the UN (from which it was prior to independence).

He seems to have this notion that even there is a territorial change in hands, that the appreciation in value will not be born by the Arab Palestinians.

And it appears that someone has told him (or convinced him) that Security Barrier MUST follow the 1949 Armistice Line, that nothing is adjustable.

I think that if the Arab Palestinians had something going for them, the Jewish industrialist would be clambering at the Knesset trying to reach an accommodations. But that certainly does not seem to be the case.

Most Respectfully,
R

P F Tinmore has somehow imprinted on the idea that Article 30 (Nationality) trumps Article 16 (Territroy). And that the entire territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine (less everything East of the Jordan River) belongs to the Arab Palestinian.​

Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne said that the Palestinians would become citizens of Palestine. This complied with international law.

The people are the sovereigns in a territory. (The people of the place not the people from someplace else.)

Neither the LoN nor the Mandate annexed or otherwise claimed sovereignty over the territory. They held it in trust on the behalf of the people. The Mandate had neither land nor borders. The Mandate had no authority over land or borders. Palestine retained it land and borders after the Mandate left Palestine.

 

[theliq]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

Not enough of you neo Nazi's to ever be in a position of power strong enough to fulfil the Aryan final solution. By this time the world will be sick and tired of Nazism hidden behind anti zionism and will have wiped out the Nazi's completely.

EXCEPT THE NAZIS WHO LIVE IN ISRAEL I PRESUME

I don't see Israelis proposing mass slaughter. I *do* see Palestinians proposing pushing Israel into the sea.

Idiot The Zionists and Israel still have already done the Mass Slaughter....and there was No proposing......R U THICK OR WHAT........**** what you see....because you are full of shit

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Actually, it did not. In fact the word "Palestine" is not mention in Article 30. In fact, the word "Palestine" is not mentioned anywhere in the entire treaty.

P F Tinmore has somehow imprinted on the idea that Article 30 (Nationality) trumps Article 16 (Territroy). And that the entire territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine (less everything East of the Jordan River) belongs to the Arab Palestinian.

Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne said that the Palestinians would become citizens of Palestine. This complied with international law.

The people are the sovereigns in a territory. (The people of the place not the people from someplace else.)

Neither the LoN nor the Mandate annexed or otherwise claimed sovereignty over the territory. They held it in trust on the behalf of the people. The Mandate had neither land nor borders. The Mandate had no authority over land or borders. Palestine retained it land and borders after the Mandate left Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Article 30 does say "nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." Assuming that the word "state" is interpreted to mean government, THEN: the interpretation would be: nationals of the Territory to which the Mandate Applied.

But in NO CASE has the implication been made that in 1923, there was a "State of Palestine." The Government of Palestine was the Mandatory.

most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you being (intentionally) ambiguous here.

Hamas has always recognized Palestine's international borders.

(COMMENT)

When you say "Palestine's international borders," you are talking about the borders that formerly designated the Territory under the Mandate.

And that is what the armed Struggle is all about.

Khalid Mish’al, Director, Political Bureau, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas).
Hamas’ vision for the Palestinian question 2010
Excerpts:

1. Palestine, from its [Jordan] river to its [Mediterranean] sea, from its north to its south, is the land of the Palestinian people; it is their homeland and their legitimate right. We will not relinquish an inch or any part of it – for any reason or under any circumstances or pressures.

2. Palestine, in its entirety, is an Arab and Islamic land. It has Islamic and Arab affiliations and is considered a blessed and sacred land. Moreover, it has a special place in the heart of every Arab and Muslim, and also has a status and respect in all religions.
​

THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL CHARTER:
Resolutions of the Palestine National Council, July 1-17, 1968
Excerpt:

Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
​

You are not talking about the UN Lines recognizing the State of Palestine; are you?

A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988 Question of Palestine

2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their
sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
​

A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012 Status of Palestine in the United Nations

1. Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967;
​

There is no question that the UN is NOT talking about the same plot of territory that the Palestinians are talking about.

What makes in even more confusing is the meaning of "independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967." There are parcels of territory that have been annexed "occupied since 1967."

(REALISTICALLY)

Until such time that BOTH sides decide to talk unambiguously (with the same definitions), I see the dispute lasting indefinitely. The dispute will fall into oblivion much the same way as Taiwan, Tibet, the Crimea --- and the Security Barriers being maintained indefinately under the same arrangement as the Korean Armistice Lines and the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625 24 October 1970), the DMZ that runs near the 38th parallel.

The longer the Palestinians hold their political position the farther behind they will sink; eventually reaching the same level as the Arab Garden Spot of Yemen and Somalia.

Most Respectfully,
R

I believe that what the UN means is the land occupied by the palestinians since 1967 as defined by the green line. Not the land occupied by Israel since 1967. This would mean they lose the temple mount if the UN ever enforced this green line as the actual border.

 

[Phoenall]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

Not enough of you neo Nazi's to ever be in a position of power strong enough to fulfil the Aryan final solution. By this time the world will be sick and tired of Nazism hidden behind anti zionism and will have wiped out the Nazi's completely.

EXCEPT THE NAZIS WHO LIVE IN ISRAEL I PRESUME

I don't see Israelis proposing mass slaughter. I *do* see Palestinians proposing pushing Israel into the sea.

Idiot The Zionists and Israel still have already done the Mass Slaughter....and there was No proposing......R U THICK OR WHAT........**** what you see....because you are full of shit

So you have selective sight now do you as the arab muslims mass murdered more "palestinians" in one month that the Jews have in 68 years of defending against arab muslim acts of war, terrorism and violence

 

[Phoenall]

Ye didn't read the post carefully. Go back and read it again. I said nothing about myself under threat from those dastardly jews. I said we are sick about hearing & reading about it. Israel bullies Palestine and will never stop until they are nuked off the map. Simples.

Ever thought that the 1.2 billion muslims could be the ones trying to bully the 12 million Jews, and the Jews always coming out on top because they are fighters.

 

[Phoenall]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

Please define these existing international borders between Israel and Palestine.

The borders of Palestine and the borders of Israel were referenced in the 1949 Armistice Agreements.

You should read them.

Why dont you post them yourself and show us all your total lack of understanding. I could do with a good laugh

 

[Phoenall]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

Please define these existing international borders between Israel and Palestine.

The borders of Palestine and the borders of Israel were referenced in the 1949 Armistice Agreements.

You should read them.

You know very well I am sufficiently versed in all the legal documents to discuss them intelligently. There is no need to be snide nor coy.

The agreement between Jordan and Israel states: "... no provision of this Agreement shall in any way prejudice the rights, claims, and positions of either Party hereto in the peaceful settlement of the Palestine questions, the provisions of this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations" (Art. II.2), "The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto." (Art. VI.9)

Make your case that anywhere in the agreement there is a differentiation between Palestine and Israel and an international boundary between them.

Your sig line: Anti-Zionism is the extremist belief that the Jewish people are not a people, have no history and no rights to a homeland.

Here's the basic flaw about the Jewish Situation: You are not the only people on the planet. The planet was not made exclusively for you. Use a dictionary and look up the word PEOPLE. It means human beings. You were cavemen just like the rest of us before the invention of a written language. What you have done with your Jewishness is to separate yourself from the rest of us. You have become elite. Humans end up hating and killing elitists. You think you're better than the rest of us, and you draw scorn, hostility, and death as a consequence. Simple as.

I don't like your sig. It is essentially hateful and separatist. You are not the kindhearted & honorable person that you pretend to be.

Very fixated on the Jews aren't you, so much so you could be mistaken for a neo Nazi racist scum. And it is the muslim belief that the planet was made for them as shown in the koran.
Get it right it is you and your kind that have used your non-Jewishness to seperate the Jews from mankind so you have an excuse for your hate and racism. The Jews are not elite, just the best in the world at their chosen professions. This is why you want to kill them all so that you will then be on a par with the elite.
As I said an excuse for your hatred and racism for you to hide behind


By the way the sig is right on the head with what it says and that is why you are offended by it, it shows you up for what you are.