End the Occupation

[Shusha]

So often in this conflict we hear the words "Israel must end the occupation". What does that mean? How will we know when the occupation is ended?

A few things to think about:

How should the territory which is to be under the sovereignty of Israel to be separated from the territory which is to be under the sovereignty of Palestine? Should the border be negotiated? Should it be pre-determined? And why?

What sort of controls at the border crossings are permissible or not permissible? Should the border function as a normal border between States, like between Canada and the US?

What considerations should be made with respect to ethnic populations living in territory which which will ultimately belong to the ethnic group?

Are all solutions to be applied equally to both sides? Why or why not?

What should be the consequences of continuing the conflict after the "occupation" ends?

Is it possible for one side to unilaterally "end the occupation"? How so?

 

[Andylusion]

So often in this conflict we hear the words "Israel must end the occupation". What does that mean? How will we know when the occupation is ended?

A few things to think about:

How should the territory which is to be under the sovereignty of Israel to be separated from the territory which is to be under the sovereignty of Palestine? Should the border be negotiated? Should it be pre-determined? And why?

What sort of controls at the border crossings are permissible or not permissible? Should the border function as a normal border between States, like between Canada and the US?

What considerations should be made with respect to ethnic populations living in territory which which will ultimately belong to the ethnic group?

Are all solutions to be applied equally to both sides? Why or why not?

What should be the consequences of continuing the conflict after the "occupation" ends?

Is it possible for one side to unilaterally "end the occupation"? How so?

I agree. Israel should end the occupation. They should expel the Arabs, and annex Gaza and the West Bank like Russia did Crimea.

 

[Phoenall]

So often in this conflict we hear the words "Israel must end the occupation". What does that mean? How will we know when the occupation is ended?

A few things to think about:

How should the territory which is to be under the sovereignty of Israel to be separated from the territory which is to be under the sovereignty of Palestine? Should the border be negotiated? Should it be pre-determined? And why?

What sort of controls at the border crossings are permissible or not permissible? Should the border function as a normal border between States, like between Canada and the US?

What considerations should be made with respect to ethnic populations living in territory which which will ultimately belong to the ethnic group?

Are all solutions to be applied equally to both sides? Why or why not?

What should be the consequences of continuing the conflict after the "occupation" ends?

Is it possible for one side to unilaterally "end the occupation"? How so?

As an example of unilateral "end of occupation" look no further than gaza in 2005 when Israel unilaterally ended the occupation and faced increased illegal rockets, terrorism and violence. Showing that the arab muslims dont want peace as they say, just the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the worlds Jews. The only way to solve this would be through the implementation of international laws backed by a UN force with the remit to shoot to kill and drive all the arab muslims over the borders of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon

 

[The Great Goose]

There is nothing to be done,but I do wish that the West would stop destabilizing the middle east and that we would have proper and unashamed border control.

I think middle eastern countries should be given a chance for trade, commerce and industry without embargoes. And if they can't get it together, then at least wall off Europe.

Israel can do what it wants as far as walls are concerned. It's not my business.

 

[Phoenall]

There is nothing to be done,but I do wish that the West would stop destabilizing the middle east and that we would have proper and unashamed border control.

I think middle eastern countries should be given a chance for trade, commerce and industry without embargoes. And if they can't get it together, then at least wall off Europe.

Israel can do what it wants as far as walls are concerned. It's not my business.

The embargoes are there to show them they cant resort to violence and terrorism when they dont get their own way

 

[P F Tinmore]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

 

[Hollie]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

Indeed... I would hope you could a'splain to us what international borders Hamas will recognize.

You should educate youself regarding the term waqf that is used by Hamas in their Charter.

 

[Phoenall]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

So just where are these international borders of palestine, when were they negotiated and by whom. You keep repeating this mantra without once providing any evidence of these borders, other than the LoN Mandate of palestine borders that you say cant exist because the mandate could not own the land.


I and otherfs have given you the treaties between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan as evidence of Israel's international borders and the nation of palestine is right in the middle of these borders

 

[esthermoon]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

That could be a rational solution.
Unfortunately rationality is powerless to stop fanatics on both sides

 

[P F Tinmore]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

So just where are these international borders of palestine, when were they negotiated and by whom. You keep repeating this mantra without once providing any evidence of these borders, other than the LoN Mandate of palestine borders that you say cant exist because the mandate could not own the land.


I and otherfs have given you the treaties between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan as evidence of Israel's international borders and the nation of palestine is right in the middle of these borders

other than the LoN Mandate of palestine borders that you say cant exist because the mandate could not own the land.​

Which is true unless you have some proof otherwise.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

Indeed... I would hope you could a'splain to us what international borders Hamas will recognize.

You should educate youself regarding the term waqf that is used by Hamas in their Charter.

Hamas has always recognized Palestine's international borders.

 

[Hollie]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

Indeed... I would hope you could a'splain to us what international borders Hamas will recognize.

You should educate youself regarding the term waqf that is used by Hamas in their Charter.

Hamas has always recognized Palestine's international borders.

The islamic terrorist enclave of Gaza'istan has international borders?

 

[Moonglow]

When will Arabs give back the land they took from the inhabitants that lived in the areas before they conquered them?

 

[The Pipe]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

 

[Moonglow]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

Or the Neutron dance..

 

[Phoenall]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

So just where are these international borders of palestine, when were they negotiated and by whom. You keep repeating this mantra without once providing any evidence of these borders, other than the LoN Mandate of palestine borders that you say cant exist because the mandate could not own the land.


I and otherfs have given you the treaties between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan as evidence of Israel's international borders and the nation of palestine is right in the middle of these borders

other than the LoN Mandate of palestine borders that you say cant exist because the mandate could not own the land.​

Which is true unless you have some proof otherwise.

And it has been given thousands of times in the form of the treaty of Sevres and the treaty of Lausanne that passed sovereignty and ownership of the land to the LoN. This body then passed sovereignty to the mandates, not to be confused with the mandatories,


BUT NICE OF YOU TO ADMIT THAT PALESTINE HAS NO BORDERS AT LAST, AND THAT YOU HAVE LIED ALL THESE YEARS

 

[Phoenall]

I predict that by the end of this century America will nuke Israel completely off the map. Someone like Trump, but not Trump, will be in a position of power and represent the voice of those Americans who are fed up to their backteeth with the whole "Jews rule the world" thang and the whole unfairness of Israel being an obvious bully & oppressor of Palestine. We will just say enough is enough. Clear the slate. We're sick of hearing about it. You're a gaping wound that needs cauterized.

Perhaps America will use a neutron bomb...you don't hear much about them anymore...

Not enough of you neo Nazi's to ever be in a position of power strong enough to fulfil the Aryan final solution. By this time the world will be sick and tired of Nazism hidden behind anti zionism and will have wiped out the Nazi's completely.

 

[Shusha]

Everything inside Palestine's international borders to Palestine.

Everything inside Israel's international borders to Israel.

Please define these existing international borders between Israel and Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you being (intentionally) ambiguous here.

Hamas has always recognized Palestine's international borders.

(COMMENT)

When you say "Palestine's international borders," you are talking about the borders that formerly designated the Territory under the Mandate.

And that is what the armed Struggle is all about.

Khalid Mish’al, Director, Political Bureau, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas).
Hamas’ vision for the Palestinian question 2010
Excerpts:

1. Palestine, from its [Jordan] river to its [Mediterranean] sea, from its north to its south, is the land of the Palestinian people; it is their homeland and their legitimate right. We will not relinquish an inch or any part of it – for any reason or under any circumstances or pressures.

2. Palestine, in its entirety, is an Arab and Islamic land. It has Islamic and Arab affiliations and is considered a blessed and sacred land. Moreover, it has a special place in the heart of every Arab and Muslim, and also has a status and respect in all religions.
​

THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL CHARTER:
Resolutions of the Palestine National Council, July 1-17, 1968
Excerpt:

​

Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
​

You are not talking about the UN Lines recognizing the State of Palestine; are you?

A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988 Question of Palestine

2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their
sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;
​

A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012 Status of Palestine in the United Nations

1. Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967;
​

There is no question that the UN is NOT talking about the same plot of territory that the Palestinians are talking about.

What makes in even more confusing is the meaning of "independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967." There are parcels of territory that have been annexed "occupied since 1967."

(REALISTICALLY)

Until such time that BOTH sides decide to talk unambiguously (with the same definitions), I see the dispute lasting indefinitely. The dispute will fall into oblivion much the same way as Taiwan, Tibet, the Crimea --- and the Security Barriers being maintained indefinately under the same arrangement as the Korean Armistice Lines and the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625 24 October 1970), the DMZ that runs near the 38th parallel.

The longer the Palestinians hold their political position the farther behind they will sink; eventually reaching the same level as the Arab Garden Spot of Yemen and Somalia.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

Until such time that BOTH sides decide to talk unambiguously (with the same definitions), I see the dispute lasting indefinitely.

Yep.

It is actually impossible for Israel to unilaterally "end the occupation" until the territory under "occupation" is defined and until the conditions of "occupation" are defined, in treaty with the compliance and acknowledgement of both parties.

Else we end up where we are now -- with self-governing Palestinian territories in Areas A and B and Gaza still considered "occupied".

And, of course, everyone knows this and has known it for decades, hence nearly every legal commentary on the conflict since 181 using the wording, "to be determined in permanent negotiations", or similar.


My suggestion would be something along the lines of a contiguous northern area and a contiguous southern area in the West Bank, with a connecting highway between them. Gaza's boundaries remain as they are.

The point of those boundaries would be to give Palestine contiguous territory with 95% of Arab Palestinians within them, as well as the majority of Area C, except where there are large Jewish settlements.

Obviously there are a whole host of issues to be addressed which come along with this, but would someone on Team Palestine take up the task of addressing why these suggested boundaries may or may not be a fair starting point?