no1tovote4
Gold Member
Okay, in order to get this down to laymen terms rather than huge amounts of legalspeak that is incomprehensible and so boring that it would put an angry hippo to sleep before somebody could load and shoot the tranquilizer I will resort to analogy heavily. Lets begin with scenarios...
If I were a bigshot mobster and they had a communications warrant for my communications, every one of the people that called my house, connected or not to the mafia would be subject to their listening devices regardless of the fact that they have no warrant for their communications. If they stated something illegal they would not be subject to arrest for their statements, nor could they be tried in court for them. If that was necessary a new warrant would need to be issued for their communications. However their rights would not be violated by being tapped for information on MY activity even though they were not a target of the investigation.
Now lets progress this further. In order to attempt to keep one step ahead of the cops I start to steal random cell phones to make it more difficult. The PATRIOT act makes it legal to tap every phone I touch and the feds would tap each of those phones in progression.
Now imagine I have stolen your phone in order to continue in my nefarious deeds. Your momma calls the phone number to get hold of you and I answer. Her calls are now being monitored by the feds who are following me, the target. Her rights are not being violated by such listening.
Now the feds were able to get warrants on me because I am under the court's jurisdiction as well as being a US Person. Therefore they must get a warrant to listen in on my phone as I am the target and fulfill those particular details.
Now, Imagine I was a terrorist working out of France. I am not a US person but am a target of interest for my connections to previously known terrorists. The US Courts have absolutely no jurisdiction over me, they CANNOT issue a warrant at all. However I am a target of listening by the NSA. Anybody who called my phone/s would be listened into, but no warrant was issued, they couldn't be.
This new scenario falls under Intel gathering, and not under regular law enforcement and thus falls totally under the power given the President in the Constitution, and not under the courts because they have NO JURISDICTION to issue warrants on targets outside the nation.
Now since they are the target of the wiretap, and they can be issued without warrant, because we know no warrant can be issued, due to the fact that no US court has jurisdiction and intel gathering is solely a power of the President by powers granted to him in the constitution for Foreign Relations (under which all foreign intel gathering falls). Article II of the Constitution gives the President this power, it is irrevocable by the courts.
Now I am in France and the principle target of an Intel project. They are listening to all my calls, much like the warranted example before. I begin stealing phones in order to make it more difficult on those who might be listening. I steal your French Friend's phone. You call them on that phone, I pick up the call. You are now being listened to by the NSA, but your rights are not being violated.
Now if you are upset that there was no warrant to tap your phone you have no recourse. You were not the target, no criminal charges were going to or were filed because of your call.
Let's progress this, if you asked me to perform some illegal activity on your behalf because you called and knew who I was, the government under FISA could then obtain pre-warrants because of the call, just like in the preceeding scenario where I was a mafioso, but with the added strength of getting a warrant after the fact. If your call were not salient to the intel gathering as it were a wrong number there would be no need to gather a warrant for the call as the subject of the intel was not you and you faced no criminal charges for the call. Your rights were not violated.
I hope these scenarios explain this enough for those who believe we are violated by such listening and that they can now rest assured that it really is entirely within the President's power to actualize such listening. And it cannot be taken by the courts or by Congress as it is given by the Constitution. No laws that Congress can pass can take this power from the President. Only an Amendment to the Constitution can change the reality of this.
In other words, President Bush is right. This is a power of the President under Article II of the constitution as he has explained from the beginning....
Thanks for listening all. I hope this was enlightening.
If I were a bigshot mobster and they had a communications warrant for my communications, every one of the people that called my house, connected or not to the mafia would be subject to their listening devices regardless of the fact that they have no warrant for their communications. If they stated something illegal they would not be subject to arrest for their statements, nor could they be tried in court for them. If that was necessary a new warrant would need to be issued for their communications. However their rights would not be violated by being tapped for information on MY activity even though they were not a target of the investigation.
Now lets progress this further. In order to attempt to keep one step ahead of the cops I start to steal random cell phones to make it more difficult. The PATRIOT act makes it legal to tap every phone I touch and the feds would tap each of those phones in progression.
Now imagine I have stolen your phone in order to continue in my nefarious deeds. Your momma calls the phone number to get hold of you and I answer. Her calls are now being monitored by the feds who are following me, the target. Her rights are not being violated by such listening.
Now the feds were able to get warrants on me because I am under the court's jurisdiction as well as being a US Person. Therefore they must get a warrant to listen in on my phone as I am the target and fulfill those particular details.
Now, Imagine I was a terrorist working out of France. I am not a US person but am a target of interest for my connections to previously known terrorists. The US Courts have absolutely no jurisdiction over me, they CANNOT issue a warrant at all. However I am a target of listening by the NSA. Anybody who called my phone/s would be listened into, but no warrant was issued, they couldn't be.
This new scenario falls under Intel gathering, and not under regular law enforcement and thus falls totally under the power given the President in the Constitution, and not under the courts because they have NO JURISDICTION to issue warrants on targets outside the nation.
Now since they are the target of the wiretap, and they can be issued without warrant, because we know no warrant can be issued, due to the fact that no US court has jurisdiction and intel gathering is solely a power of the President by powers granted to him in the constitution for Foreign Relations (under which all foreign intel gathering falls). Article II of the Constitution gives the President this power, it is irrevocable by the courts.
Now I am in France and the principle target of an Intel project. They are listening to all my calls, much like the warranted example before. I begin stealing phones in order to make it more difficult on those who might be listening. I steal your French Friend's phone. You call them on that phone, I pick up the call. You are now being listened to by the NSA, but your rights are not being violated.
Now if you are upset that there was no warrant to tap your phone you have no recourse. You were not the target, no criminal charges were going to or were filed because of your call.
Let's progress this, if you asked me to perform some illegal activity on your behalf because you called and knew who I was, the government under FISA could then obtain pre-warrants because of the call, just like in the preceeding scenario where I was a mafioso, but with the added strength of getting a warrant after the fact. If your call were not salient to the intel gathering as it were a wrong number there would be no need to gather a warrant for the call as the subject of the intel was not you and you faced no criminal charges for the call. Your rights were not violated.
I hope these scenarios explain this enough for those who believe we are violated by such listening and that they can now rest assured that it really is entirely within the President's power to actualize such listening. And it cannot be taken by the courts or by Congress as it is given by the Constitution. No laws that Congress can pass can take this power from the President. Only an Amendment to the Constitution can change the reality of this.
In other words, President Bush is right. This is a power of the President under Article II of the constitution as he has explained from the beginning....
Thanks for listening all. I hope this was enlightening.
