Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[Meriweather]

No. It can't be that, because we know what Jesus can do. It isn't that He CAN'T turn wine into blood. It is that He DIDN'T turn the wine into blood, on that occasion or any other occasion in the Bible. Jesus Christ is a Jewish Priest who knows NOT to drink blood. How many don't do it scriptures do you need before you understand that Jesus did not tell the disciples to drink blood and eat flesh and think of Him when they often did it?

If it is too distasteful to accept, then of course, many will rework what Jesus said into something acceptable to them. They will do it in memory of him. I believe God meets us where we are and from that point draws us closer to him. God is exceedingly generous in bestowing his blessings.

The Catholic faith is Jesus poured his blood out for us, and he also pours his blood into us. Blood is life. Jesus poured his life out for us and he pours his life into us.

An interesting side point: Keep in mind this has not been proven scientifically, but it happens often enough that science is looking into it. Some people who have had heart transplants notice they took on some personality traits of their donor. Eucharistic miracles show that in these, the result is deep heart muscle.

The Eucharist is Catholic holy ground, sacred to us. It's not too much to expect it be treated with respect. There is no cause for outsiders to tear it down.

 

[gtopa1]

If my Dad takes a sip of coffee, and a bite of toast in remembrance of Christ, does it count?

it might sound strange and I know it is a mystery but it is; IF properly consecrated then yes but it's an odd question. I've heard of non-alcoholic wine being consecrated but not decaf coffee.

But all joking aside; it has the FORM of bread and wine but the SUBSTANCE is that of Jesus. It's what we call a mystery.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

If it is too distasteful to accept, then of course, many will rework what Jesus said into something acceptable to them. They will do it in memory of him. I believe God meets us where we are and from that point draws us closer to him. God is exceedingly generous in bestowing his blessings.

The Catholic faith is Jesus poured his blood out for us, and he also pours his blood into us. Blood is life. Jesus poured his life out for us and he pours his life into us.

An interesting side point: Keep in mind this has not been proven scientifically, but it happens often enough that science is looking into it. Some people who have had heart transplants notice they took on some personality traits of their donor. Eucharistic miracles show that in these, the result is deep heart muscle.

The Eucharist is Catholic holy ground, sacred to us. It's not too much to expect it be treated with respect. There is no cause for outsiders to tear it down.

None can tear it down; they can only not understand it....yet!!

Greg

 

[hadit]

Or, is it bizarre that it's one miracle some Christians have no faith that Jesus can implement. Manna--no problem; the Bread of the Presence becoming holy--no problem. But Jesus feeding us with his own body, blood, and divinity--no way. Was it a miracle that Jesus returned Jairus' daughter to life, or do you believe she wasn't really dead? How about the widow's son? Lazarus? Did Jesus really walk on water? Did he feed five thousand with a few loaves and fish? Did he cure people who had leprosy? Bring sight to the blind? Should faith go that far, but no further?

Those interested may want to do a bit of light research on Carlo Acutis. He died (2006) of leukemia when he was fifteen. He documented Eucharistic miracles around the world.

There's a big difference between believing that Jesus WON'T do something and CAN'T do something. I keep seeing you claim that people think Jesus CAN'T do something when that is far from the case. Stop it.

 

[hadit]

This is where Catholic and Orthodox differ. There is no substitution; transubstantiation takes place. A question for you and hadit : Why does it matter to you what other denominations do? If other denominations wish to eat bread drink wine/grape juice, in memory of Jesus, I don't care. It doesn't bother me in the least. It is the rite they chose.

Actually, you do care, because you would not share communion with them, thinking it wasn't real. That points to a lack of faith on your part, because you require a Catholic priest to consecrate the elements, not believing that Jesus can do it on His own if that's what He wants His faithful to experience. That is a very important question. You come on here regularly claiming that others don't have faith because they think Jesus can't transform the elements. The reality is, they know perfectly well He can do that, they just don't think He wants to. My question to you is, why would Jesus require a priest to intervene in order to transform them? If He wanted them transformed, He can do that completely on His own whenever His faithful desire to remember His sacrifice. That would mean you could celebrate communion in every way in a Protestant church that says nothing about the transformation, because you would have faith that Jesus transformed the elements for you.

Why does it bother you and hadit that the Catholic and Orthodox churches maintained Apostolic teaching and early Church traditions? Does it bother you that Islam teaches one should pray, facing Mecca, five times a day? And do you enter Muslim threads telling Muslims they should stop doing this?

1. You haven't maintained all the traditions, you have maintained some while adding others. If you really maintained the traditions, communion would be a shared meal, for just one example. For another, there would be no special priesthood, because the early church didn't have it. There would be no candles being lit, no special robes for the higher authorities, no special hats, no images before which to genuflect. Here's another question about transubstantiation. Jesus said, "This is my body and my blood" BEFORE He died and was resurrected. Are you consuming the pre or post-resurrection body? Something to think about. I, quite frankly, don't believe for a moment that you have access to consume the post-resurrection body of Jesus.
2. I believe the Body of Christ is to be ONE under him, but you keep yourself exclusive, away from the rest of the Body by refusing to share communion. You believe that only you have it right and everyone has to be Catholic or they're not doing it right.
3. I seek unification with Christians, not Muslims. At the end of the day, I expect to rub elbows with Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Orthodox, Mennonites, Independents, etc. on the New Earth, but I would like to see us be one in Christ before we get there. That is Jesus' command, after all.

 

[gtopa1]

I really do wonder though if we can really grasp what is important here. We know that in the beginning was the Word, and The Word was WITH God and the Words WAS GOD.

And then we have the little but stunning passage "And the Word WAS MADE FLESH"..............................................

Always get me that does!! So IS the Eucharist "The Word Made Flesh" and are we partaking of the Word's Flesh and Blood!

Comments?

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

Actually, you do care, because you would not share communion with them, thinking it wasn't real. That points to a lack of faith on your part, because you require a Catholic priest to consecrate the elements, not believing that Jesus can do it on His own if that's what He wants His faithful to experience. That is a very important question. You come on here regularly claiming that others don't have faith because they think Jesus can't transform the elements. The reality is, they know perfectly well He can do that, they just don't think He wants to. My question to you is, why would Jesus require a priest to intervene in order to transform them? If He wanted them transformed, He can do that completely on His own whenever His faithful desire to remember His sacrifice. That would mean you could celebrate communion in every way in a Protestant church that says nothing about the transformation, because you would have faith that Jesus transformed the elements for you.

1. You haven't maintained all the traditions, you have maintained some while adding others. If you really maintained the traditions, communion would be a shared meal, for just one example. For another, there would be no special priesthood, because the early church didn't have it. There would be no candles being lit, no special robes for the higher authorities, no special hats, no images before which to genuflect. Here's another question about transubstantiation. Jesus said, "This is my body and my blood" BEFORE He died and was resurrected. Are you consuming the pre or post-resurrection body? Something to think about. I, quite frankly, don't believe for a moment that you have access to consume the post-resurrection body of Jesus.
2. I believe the Body of Christ is to be ONE under him, but you keep yourself exclusive, away from the rest of the Body by refusing to share communion. You believe that only you have it right and everyone has to be Catholic or they're not doing it right.
3. I seek unification with Christians, not Muslims. At the end of the day, I expect to rub elbows with Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Orthodox, Mennonites, Independents, etc. on the New Earth, but I would like to see us be one in Christ before we get there. That is Jesus' command, after all.

Common misconception; the Priest doesn't do nuffink; GOD DOES.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

bbl. This thread is cool.

Greg

 

[hadit]

Ergo we look to the traditions of the early Christians who were closer to the event than we were.

That's great, but then we should also look at their traditions in other areas as well.

1. Their leaders didn't wear ornate robes.
2. Their leaders didn't wear special hats.
3. They didn't wield political power.
4. They didn't burn candles in rituals.
5. They didn't have statues of those who have gone before.
6. They had elders, not priests.

Something to think about if we're going to give tradition a lot of impact.

 

[hadit]

Common misconception; the Priest doesn't do nuffink; GOD DOES.

Greg

Yes, God does it, yet some think that the transformation doesn't happen unless the priest takes action first. If Christ wants us to literally consume His flesh and drink His blood, He can do it without the priest saying anything.

 

[Meriweather]

Actually, you do care, because you would not share communion with them, thinking it wasn't real. That points to a lack of faith on your part, because you require a Catholic priest to consecrate the elements, not believing that Jesus can do it on His own if that's what He wants His faithful to experience. That is a very important question.

The Apostles cared about this. See Paul. Receiving the Eucharist is a statement that the one receiving the Eucharistic believes it is the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.

Can you do this? or Won't you do this? (See what I did there? Perhaps it is you who should stop it.)

 

[hadit]

The Apostles cared about this. See Paul. Receiving the Eucharist is a statement that the one receiving the Eucharistic believes it is the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.

Can you do this? or Won't you do this? (See what I did there? Perhaps it is you who should stop it.)

Be careful. We're talking about what Jesus will or won't do. He can do anything but you are out here accusing people of believing He can't. Big difference.

Now, curiosity. Are you consuming the pre or post-resurrection body of Christ?

 

[Meriweather]

My question to you is, why would Jesus require a priest to intervene in order to transform them? If He wanted them transformed, He can do that completely on His own whenever His faithful desire to remember His sacrifice. That would mean you could celebrate communion in every way in a Protestant church that says nothing about the transformation, because you would have faith that Jesus transformed the elements for you.

God's kingdom is Catholic and the early Church understood this to mean something even greater than universal--it meant cosmic. It is a kingdom, God's kingdom. It seems with the Protestant Reformation, this Apostolic teaching/tradition was dropped while Protestants focused on singularity--of God and oneself.

Christ's Church is cosmic, and this is explained in the passage Protestants seem to hate, where Jesus says Peter will have the keys. When one is used to Kingdom thinking, of thinking of the many that make up the Body of Christ, the many members all work together contributing his/her part in Kingdom living, Kingdom/cosmic celebrations. We're all working together at various tasks, appreciating the parts that make up the whole.

There is a time for private prayer, as Jesus illustrated in his own life. There is also a time to come together as Jesus also illustrated. Keep in mind that if I were invited to a non-Catholic church, temple, synagogue for Sabbath/Sunday services, I would also attend Catholic Mass--not because it is "better" but because it has that cosmic element. This is not about my singular relationship with God, it's about the entire Body of Christ's relationship with God, and I am a member (not the whole) of the Body of Christ.

 

[hadit]

God's kingdom is Catholic and the early Church understood this to mean something even greater than universal--it meant cosmic. It is a kingdom, God's kingdom. It seems with the Protestant Reformation, this Apostolic teaching/tradition was dropped while Protestants focused on singularity--of God and oneself.

Christ's Church is cosmic, and this is explained in the passage Protestants seem to hate, where Jesus says Peter will have the keys. When one is used to Kingdom thinking, of thinking of the many that make up the Body of Christ, the many members all work together contributing his/her part in Kingdom living, Kingdom/cosmic celebrations. We're all working together at various tasks, appreciating the parts that make up the whole.

There is a time for private prayer, as Jesus illustrated in his own life. There is also a time to come together as Jesus also illustrated. Keep in mind that if I were invited to a non-Catholic church, temple, synagogue for Sabbath/Sunday services, I would also attend Catholic Mass--not because it is "better" but because it has that cosmic element. This is not about my singular relationship with God, it's about the entire Body of Christ's relationship with God, and I am a member (not the whole) of the Body of Christ.

Yet you hold yourself separate from other Christian denominations because they are not part of your official organization. The Body of Christ consists of all who call on His name and are born of the Spirit, regardless of the name on their church door.

 

[Meriweather]

1. You haven't maintained all the traditions, you have maintained some while adding others. If you really maintained the traditions, communion would be a shared meal, for just one example. For another, there would be no special priesthood, because the early church didn't have it. There would be no candles being lit, no special robes for the higher authorities, no special hats, no images before which to genuflect. Here's another question about transubstantiation. Jesus said, "This is my body and my blood" BEFORE He died and was resurrected. Are you consuming the pre or post-resurrection body? Something to think about. I, quite frankly, don't believe for a moment that you have access to consume the post-resurrection body of Jesus.

Thanks for sharing. Be at peace knowing that your disbelief concerning the Eucharist and the gifts it provides me is like chaff in the wind. It doesn't touch me.

I am curious as to you dissecting Jesus into "Before" and "After". I am remembering that in his earthly life Jesus saying that he could do nothing without it first being the will of the Father. Every act, every word he spoke was the will of God. That includes his teachings before the resurrection and it includes his teachings after the resurrection. His teachings are one, before and after; his oneness with God is/was also before and after.

 

[Meriweather]

You believe that only you have it right and everyone has to be Catholic or they're not doing it right.

That is not my belief. That is you drawing something out of your Imaginary Meriweather's belief.

 

[hadit]

Thanks for sharing. Be at peace knowing that your disbelief concerning the Eucharist and the gifts it provides me is like chaff in the wind. It doesn't touch me.

Oh, I well realize that your belief is rock solid and nothing, not even Scripture, is going to touch it.

I am curious as to you dissecting Jesus into "Before" and "After". I am remembering that in his earthly life Jesus saying that he could do nothing without it first being the will of the Father. Every act, every word he spoke was the will of God. That includes his teachings before the resurrection and it includes his teachings after the resurrection. His teachings are one, before and after; his oneness with God is/was also before and after.

But His body is not the same before and after. It cannot be.

 

[Meriweather]

Be careful. We're talking about what Jesus will or won't do. He can do anything but you are out here accusing people of believing He can't. Big difference.

Now, curiosity. Are you consuming the pre or post-resurrection body of Christ?

I'm guessing you feel you are the expert on what Jesus will or won't do? The point here is that Jesus did do it.

I am consuming the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Are you suggesting that either before or after his death Jesus had some kind of dissociative identity disorder (to use the psychiatric term)?

 

[hadit]

I'm guessing you feel you are the expert on what Jesus will or won't do? The point here is that Jesus did do it.

You say He did while I say He didn't, and you accuse me of thinking I'm the expert? You're doing the same thing I am.

I am consuming the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.

Wait, now you're devouring His divinity as well? He didn't say anything about that.

Are you suggesting that either before or after his death Jesus had some kind of dissociative identity disorder (to use the psychiatric term)?

No, I am stating that Jesus' resurrected body is NOT His earthly body at all. Mine won't be and yours won't be, at least they'd better not be.

 

[Meriweather]

Yet you hold yourself separate from other Christian denominations because they are not part of your official organization. The Body of Christ consists of all who call on His name and are born of the Spirit, regardless of the name on their church door.

Catholics did not break away from anyone. Others broke away from Catholicism.

Once again, you are drawing on your Imaginary Meriweather. I do not hold myself separate from anyone. Recall, I come from a family of differing beliefs, including atheism. We are not separate, we are all children of God, and that includes atheists. You reiterated my point about the Body of Christ including ALL Christians. The fact you seemed to think we differed on that point makes my point about you drawing on an Imaginary Meriweather.