Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[Meriweather]

Oh, I well realize that your belief is rock solid and nothing, not even Scripture, is going to touch it.

But His body is not the same before and after. It cannot be.

Scripture formed my belief, and experiences have confirmed it.

It can't be or won't be? More seriously, the closest we come to answering this is the literary element of foreshadowing that we see throughout the Bible. When Jesus spoke these words, even before the Last Supper, was he thinking of his resurrected body or his earthly body? Remember, Jesus knew the final scene that would play out in his time on earth.

 

[hadit]

Catholics did not break away from anyone. Others broke away from Catholicism.

That claims that the Catholic Church was the first one. Orthodox Churches would disagree.

Once again, you are drawing on your Imaginary Meriweather. I do not hold myself separate from anyone. Recall, I come from a family of differing beliefs, including atheism. We are not separate, we are all children of God, and that includes atheists. You reiterated my point about the Body of Christ including ALL Christians. The fact you seemed to think we differed on that point makes my point about you drawing on an Imaginary Meriweather.

I appreciate your stance. I don't like being excluded from communion if I attend a Mass.

 

[hadit]

Scripture formed my belief, and experiences have confirmed it.

And I the same.

It can't be or won't be? More seriously, the closest we come to answering this is the literary element of foreshadowing that we see throughout the Bible. When Jesus spoke these words, even before the Last Supper, was he thinking of his resurrected body or his earthly body? Remember, Jesus knew the final scene that would play out in his time on earth.

My resurrected body will not be the same as my non-resurrected body. This one ages and dies. That one won't.

 

[Meriweather]

You say He did while I say He didn't, and you accuse me of thinking I'm the expert? You're doing the same thing I am.

I am taking scripture of what Jesus said at his word. It's been noted before that when Jesus lost many of his disciples because of that, he did not call after them that it was symbolic, and he did not gather his Apostles around him to explain what he had said (like he often did when Parables were not understood correctly). I doubt I missed Bible verses where Jesus explains to the Twelve he was speaking symbolically.

Wait, now you're devouring His divinity as well? He didn't say anything about that.

I am saying Jesus feeds us with his body, blood, soul, and divinity, with all that he is. Why? Please don't start thinking that Jesus may be feeding us with part of himself, but he certainly wouldn't feed us with all of himself.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't like being excluded from communion if I attend a Mass.

Then become Catholic. You obviously want to be included, so join the Catholic faith.

 

[hadit]

Then become Catholic. You obviously want to be included, so join the Catholic faith.

That simply underscores your exclusivity. You want to exclude fellow believers from a communal celebration while we do not.

 

[hadit]

I am taking scripture of what Jesus said at his word. It's been noted before that when Jesus lost many of his disciples because of that, he did not call after them that it was symbolic, and he did not gather his Apostles around him to explain what he had said (like he often did when Parables were not understood correctly). I doubt I missed Bible verses where Jesus explains to the Twelve he was speaking symbolically.

That entire passage is loaded with symbolic language, yet we're supposed to ignore that just for this one part? I don't buy it.

I am saying Jesus feeds us with his body, blood, soul, and divinity, with all that he is. Why? Please don't start thinking that Jesus may be feeding us with part of himself, but he certainly wouldn't feed us with all of himself.

Jesus is God, there is no way He is going to put all of Himself within us. His glory would kill us outright. I'm sorry, I don't buy that either.

 

[ding]

/---/ We Catholics still believe it.

Correct, and for good reason.

 

[ding]

That's great, but then we should also look at their traditions in other areas as well.

1. Their leaders didn't wear ornate robes.
2. Their leaders didn't wear special hats.
3. They didn't wield political power.
4. They didn't burn candles in rituals.
5. They didn't have statues of those who have gone before.
6. They had elders, not priests.

Something to think about if we're going to give tradition a lot of impact.

Ok, great, let's look at that. Why don't you make a thread about it.

But just so you know, I don't care much about what tradition says about pageantry. Which is really all you are describing. I care about tradition when it comes to showing what their beliefs were because they were the ones who lived through it. It doesn't seem like they were confused by Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

 

[hadit]

Ok, great, let's look at that. Why don't you make a thread about it.

But just so you know, I don't care much about what tradition says about pageantry. Which is really all you are describing. I care about tradition when it comes to showing what their beliefs were because they were the ones who lived through it. It doesn't seem like they were confused by Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

So why do the Church rulers wear the hats and the robes? There's no good reason in today's world to do so. Why the candles when they don't do anything? Why the images when the early church would have run the other way to avoid?

 

[ding]

Jesus Christ could turn wine into chicken soup if He wanted. The point is, He didn't serve the disciples blood, and he didn't cut pieces of his flesh masquerading as bread.. Do you think He was trying to trick the disciples into drinking blood because He made it look like wine? And the bread was really pieces of his flesh that he made look like bread? Do you think the disciples were fooled?
It is all about remembrance.

And yet it is you that doesn't believe that any of the stories in the Bible are literal, except the one thing that actually is symbolic.
Was Jonah and the big fish story an allegory?

It seems you think Jesus was either lying or misspoke multiple times because you can't accept the fact that Jesus can turn that bread and wine into his body and blood and still make it look like bread and wine. So you must believe that either Jesus misspoke multiple times when he said this bread is my body and this wine is my blood or that he lied when he said this bread is my body and this wine is my blood.

 

[Meriweather]

That simply underscores your exclusivity. You want to exclude fellow believers from a communal celebration while we do not.

Your unbelief is what excludes. It's like someone joining a football game and insisting all those who are there play baseball your way.

 

[Meriweather]

That entire passage is loaded with symbolic language, yet we're supposed to ignore that just for this one part? I don't buy it.

Jesus is God, there is no way He is going to put all of Himself within us. His glory would kill us outright. I'm sorry, I don't buy that either.

I understand that you don't buy it.

 

[ding]

Do you think He was trying to trick the disciples into drinking blood because He made it look like wine? And the bread was really pieces of his flesh that he made look like bread? Do you think the disciples were fooled?

I believe exactly what he said, "this bread is my body and this wine is my blood."

You have little faith in Jesus if you believe Jesus misspoke or lied.

 

[Meriweather]

So why do the Church rulers wear the hats and the robes? There's no good reason in today's world to do so. Why the candles when they don't do anything? Why the images when the early church would have run the other way to avoid?

1. Old traditional robes and hats, not modern fashion.
2. Candles symbolize Christ's light in scripture; his presence in the Eucharist.
3. Images were present throughout scripture--on the Ark, on the Temple. They draw attention to God's word.
4. There are early Christian images in the Catacombs.

 

[ding]

Did you not read what I was responding to? Go back and do that, then come back.

Yes, I did read what you were responding to. Did you not understand my response to your response?

You said, "His sacrifice is done and over with. "It is finished", final curtain. There is no "continuing" sacrifice." I responded with, "no one said there was." As in no one said there was a continuing sacrifice. Then I added, "apparently you lack faith in Christ." To which you replied, "did you not read what I was responding to? Go back and do that, then come back."

So now I'm coming back and telling you that you must lack faith in Christ to change what he said to make what he said more suitable to your ears. He couldn't have been more clear. He said it multiple times. He was given a chance to make it symbolic and declined. He let MANY disciples leave rather than making it symbolic. The FIRST Christians believed what Jesus told them. Why don't you?

 

[ding]

It's really odd that hobelim isn't commenting on this since it seems to be a central theme in many of his posts. Good old, Georgie Porgie.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's true. Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ.

The Real Presence is taught by St. Paul. “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 11:26-27).

The Real Presence was taught by the twelve apostles. “Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: ‘Do not give to dogs what is sacred” (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, or Didache, 9:5).

The Real Presence was upheld by early Christians.

It was upheld by St. Ignatius of Antioch in the first century: “Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, circa 90 AD).

It was upheld by St. Justin Martyr in the second century: “This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, circa 150 AD).

It was upheld by St. Clement of Alexandria in the third century: “The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, – of the drink and of the Word, – is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word” (St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of the Children, circa 202 AD).

It was upheld by St. Cyril of Jerusalem in the fourth century: “Since then He Himself has declared and said of the Bread, (This is My Body), who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has affirmed and said, (This is My Blood), who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, circa 350 AD).

Early Church Fathers Upholding Transubstantiation in Their Own Words

Transubstantiation, wherein bread and wine change into the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharist has been part of Catholicism since the very beginning..

www.magiscenter.com

Difficult to say for certain how the early Church fathers understood the elements of the Eucharist or Holy Communion.

Yes they used language to suggest the body and blood as being that of Christ rather than symbolic. But in other language they suggested these as symbolic instead of the actual flesh and blood of Jesus.

"A generation after Irenaeus, Tertullian (160–225) used the same arguments against the Gnostic heretic Marcion. However, Tertullian provided more information into how the eucharistic elements ought to be understood. Tertullian wrote:

“Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ that is, the symbol of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40)."

Justin Martyr (110–165) spoke of “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood"(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Clement of Alexandria explained that, “The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).

Origen similarly noted, “We have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread which we call the Eucharist” (Against Celsus, 8.57).

Transubstantiation or the literal body and blood of Christ did not become doctrine in the RCC until the middle ages and certainly some believed it all that time. But obviously all did not.

 

[hobelim]

It's really odd that hobelim isn't commenting on this since it seems to be a central theme in many of his posts.

One minute you are complaining about me repeating myself and the next you are begging for more. Okey dokey. here it is;

You might not realize this but to Jesus, his disciples, followers, and the unknown authors of the gospels who witnessed the destruction of Judea, their way of life, and the enslavement exile and ruthless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Jewish men women and children "the nations" were the enemy....



"I have not come to bring peace but a sword"

"From his mouth there went a sharp sword with which to smite the nations"

"Take this cup of wine and drink it, all of you. This is a cup of my blood, the blood of the covenant"

"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them"

“Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ But if they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink, tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: You must drink it! See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears my Name, and will you indeed go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword on all who live on the earth, declares the Lord Almighty.’

"Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink."



The sword is clearly identified as a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine. Still works like a charm! Your vile and contaminating unclean words, obscene and degrading practices, and murderous deeds are the proof!

"He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

Another interesting factoid is that the only person who was given bread dipped in wine during the last supper according to the gospel of John was Judas as a way for Jesus to clearly identify his betrayer to the others, and as soon as Judas received the bread Satan entered him.

 

[ding]

One minute you are complaining about me repeating myself and the next you are begging for more. Okey dokey. here it is;

You might not realize this but to Jesus, his disciples, followers, and the unknown authors of the gospels who witnessed the destruction of Judea, their way of life, and the enslavement exile and ruthless slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Jewish men women and children "the nations" were the enemy....



"I have not come to bring peace but a sword"

"From his mouth there went a sharp sword with which to smite the nations"

"Take this cup of wine and drink it, all of you. This is a cup of my blood, the blood of the covenant"

"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them"

“Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ But if they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink, tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: You must drink it! See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears my Name, and will you indeed go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword on all who live on the earth, declares the Lord Almighty.’

"Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink."



The sword is clearly identified as a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine. Still works like a charm! Your vile and contaminating unclean words, obscene and degrading practices, and murderous deeds are the proof!

"He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

Another interesting factoid is that the only person who was given bread dipped in wine during the last supper according to the gospel of John was Judas as a way for Jesus to clearly identify his betrayer to the others, and as soon as Judas received the bread Satan entered him.

Yeah, that means nothing.