Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[hadit]

I'm asking YOU how old YOU believe the earth is? Your answer will determine if you read Genesis literally.

I read it carefully and notice that there are things not readily noticed by the modern English reader, such as the verb tense in Gen 1:2 where it says the earth "had become" unordered and empty, which leads me to believe that a lot could have happened between those verses. Also noting in verse 28, KJV, where it says God told man to "replenish" the earth. You "replenish" something that was once filled and is now empty.

That's why I say that the Bible doesn't literally tell me how old the earth is. Observation tells us it's very old, and I do not believe that God lies, telling us it's not old when it is. I'll let Him tell me exactly how old it is if I care any longer when I meet him.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It's true. Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

Well.....it wasn't.

 

[ding]

I read it carefully and notice that there are things not readily noticed by the modern English reader, such as the verb tense in Gen 1:2 where it says the earth "had become" unordered and empty, which leads me to believe that a lot could have happened between those verses. Also noting in verse 28, KJV, where it says God told man to "replenish" the earth. You "replenish" something that was once filled and is now empty.

That's why I say that the Bible doesn't literally tell me how old the earth is. Observation tells us it's very old, and I do not believe that God lies, telling us it's not old when it is. I'll let Him tell me exactly how old it is if I care any longer when I meet him.

I believe you believe the earth is very very young compared to what I believe it is and I believe the reason is that you read Genesis literally. I read each passage the way it's intended to be read. You read all passages literally except the passages you can't swallow.

 

[ding]

Well.....it wasn't.

Jesus said it is.

Luke 22:19–20
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

 

[hadit]

But he did intend for that to be taken literally. Just like he intended the flesh is of no avail to be taken literally. What you fail to understand is that you are a spiritual being experiencing a human existence. You are not a human being experiencing a spiritual existence. When I die only my material existence dies. I have eternal life. What Jesus was referring to was a spiritual existence, not a human existence. So saying the flesh is of no avail and that anyone who comes to him has eternal life are true statements. Your flesh isn't important. It's going to die. You came from dust and from dust you shall return. Surely you don't believe that after you die and your spirit lives on that you will be hungry or thirsty, right?

This is a case where He leaves it to the Holy Spirit to guide as to what He meant without Him explicitly saying it. The woman at the well took Him literally about the living water that comes from Him and was incorrect, even though He didn't correct her on it. I believe you are doing the same thing she did, taking Him literally when He didn't intend you to.

A thought strikes, do you think you are eating His un-resurrected body or His resurrected body?

 

[ding]

This is a case where He leaves it to the Holy Spirit to guide as to what He meant without Him explicitly saying it. The woman at the well took Him literally about the living water that comes from Him and was incorrect, even though He didn't correct her on it. I believe you are doing the same thing she did, taking Him literally when He didn't intend you to.

A thought strikes, do you think you are eating His un-resurrected body or His resurrected body?

I disagree. Jesus commanded it. The first Christians followed it. Paul reinforced it. And you reject what Jesus commanded you to do because it repulses you.

Matthew 26:26–28
Institution of the Lord’s Supper
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[hadit]

I believe you believe the earth is very very young compared to what I believe it is and I believe the reason is that you read Genesis literally. I read each passage the way it's intended to be read. You read all passages literally except the passages you can't swallow.

Now you're just trying to project your thoughts incorrectly onto me. I've told you what I believe, and I did not say the earth was very young. Again, I will state that God does not lie and I don't believe He would give us an earth that appears to be very old while telling us it is very young. As to what is literal, we're in this discussion with me telling you Jesus was not speaking literally while you claim He was. Now you claim the opposite?

 

[hadit]

I disagree. Jesus commanded it. The first Christians followed it. Paul reinforced it. And you reject what Jesus commanded you to do because it repulses you.

Matthew 26:26–28
Institution of the Lord’s Supper
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Resurrected or un-resurrected?

 

[ding]

The woman at the well took Him literally about the living water that comes from Him and was incorrect, even though He didn't correct her on it. I believe you are doing the same thing she did, taking Him literally when He didn't intend you to.

It doesn't matter what the woman at the well believed. It only matters what Jesus meant.

So you are no different than the woman at the well because neither of you knew what Jesus meant. The only difference is she didn't know because of ignorance, you don't know because his command repulses you.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Unless you can provide the scripture that tells of Christ slitting a wrist and letting it drip into a cup, I am pretty sure they knew that they were drinking wine, and eating bread. It was a representation.

Represent ~ Meaning to use something to represent something else.

 

[ding]

Resurrected or un-resurrected?

I don't believe un-resurrected is the way to say that.

Matthew 26:26–28
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 22:19–20
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."


1 Corinthians 11:26-27
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord”

John 6: 53-56
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

 

[ding]

Unless you can provide the scripture that tells of Christ slitting a wrist and letting it drip into a cup, I am pretty sure they knew that they were drinking wine, and eating bread. It was a representation.

Represent ~ Meaning to use something to represent something else.

You will have to argue that with Jesus. He's the one that gave the command. But apparently you don't have enough faith in Jesus to believe he can transform bread and wine into his body and blood. I do.

But here's the scripture where Paul is admonishing the Corinthians that they weren't just eating bread and and drinking wine. And that if they thought they were (i.e. eating and drinking in an unworthy manner) that they were profaning the body and blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:26-27
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord”

 

[ding]

I'm not sure Jesus will transform bread and wine into his body and blood for anyone who doesn't have enough faith to believe he can do it.

 

[ding]

You guys are real big on scripture. Too bad you don't have any scripture to back up your beliefs. It's bad enough that you dismiss scripture that doesn't suit you, but it's even worse that you think your adherence to scripture is superior to that of others. It isn't. It's not even close.

 

[ding]

Now you're just trying to project your thoughts incorrectly onto me. I've told you what I believe, and I did not say the earth was very young. Again, I will state that God does not lie and I don't believe He would give us an earth that appears to be very old while telling us it is very young. As to what is literal, we're in this discussion with me telling you Jesus was not speaking literally while you claim He was. Now you claim the opposite?

No. It's based upon observations and deductions.

Jesus was speaking literally. I've never claimed otherwise.

Matthew 26:26–28
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 22:19–20
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."


1 Corinthians 11:26-27
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord”

John 6: 53-56
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

 

[Meriweather]

You get the point, finally.

I got your bait and switch tactic from the beginning. I allowed your bait to gain a condescending response. Glad you're happy that you can pretend I agree with your "point". I don't. And deep down, you know that.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You will have to argue that with Jesus. He's the one that gave the command. But apparently you don't have enough faith in Jesus to believe he can transform bread and wine into his body and blood. I do.

But here's the scripture where Paul is admonishing the Corinthians that they weren't just eating bread and and drinking wine. And that if they thought they were (i.e. eating and drinking in an unworthy manner) that they were profaning the body and blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:26-27
“For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord”

Ding, if you want to make this personal, then I have to tell you that you don't know me well enough to determine my degree of faith, so I'll give it to you. I believe that there isn't anything that Jesus Christ can't do. He is the Alpha and the Omega, and every thing that was created He created. He created blood. He can turn water into fine wine and wine into chicken soup if He wanted to.

When men sat down to eat back then, they didn't drink milk or water etc., they drank wine, every day. And ate bread.
If the point of the act was to drink blood and eat someone's flesh daily, where were they getting it, after Christ died? Or did He want them to remember His death/sacrifice daily when they drank their wine and ate their bread?

Paul admonished the Corinthians because they were just eating bread and drinking wine, which made it just another meal without it representing the Lord's sacrifice. And as you can see in the verse, they were using actual bread and actual wine to represent the body and the blood of Christ. Just like we do now.

There are several instances in the Bible that says NOT to drink blood, and to pour it out on the ground like water. It was prohibited to consume it.
And the remarks Jesus made at the last supper is one of the times in the Bible that is actually using symbolism.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus said it. The literalists on here should be trying to stuff grown people back into their mothers.

You obviously don't get it. The "literalists" (if there are any in this thread I don't see them) are doing nothing of the sort. It ill behooves anyone to try to stuff them into that cube of your own making.

What do I see? People of strong faith and.... People who....

 

[The Irish Ram]

Every Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox parish uses wine and specially-baked bread. There are rules for both and they can't be substituted. In EO parishes, typically the priest's wife bakes the bread herself.

It's not just a ritual in memory of the Last Supper. It's the continuing sacrifice of our Lord.

Kind of odd though to get the wine part right, but still have to substitute bread to represent the flesh part of the scripture.

 

[hadit]

It doesn't matter what the woman at the well believed. It only matters what Jesus meant.

So you are no different than the woman at the well because neither of you knew what Jesus meant. The only difference is she didn't know because of ignorance, you don't know because his command repulses you.

I know what He meant. The fact is, she was confused and He didn't go into detail what He meant, and ultimately she just accepted Him. I think it's the same thing here. He didn't mean we were to consume his body and blood and didn't go into detail to explain to the people what He meant. Based on what He said elsewhere, it's clear He was speaking spiritually.

Now, are you consuming His pre or post resurrection body?