Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[hadit]

You are making a mountain out of nothing. I have no idea why it bothers one person so much.

It bothers me because "priest" and "saint" are titles God bestows on all believers and now otherwise Godly people don't believe they have those titles because to them they mean something completely different.

 

[hadit]

No offense, but I know way more about scriptures than you will ever know. You are long on form and short on spirit.

You may very well have more knowledge about the Scriptures than I do, I don't endeavor to say otherwise. I do, however, point out that you are ignoring relevant Scripture that says God has called us all to be priests and saints.

For instance, why was Christ sleeping in the boat while the storm was raging? Any clue?

Of course. Just off the top of my head, here.
1. He was tired and had no fear of anything the devil might throw at Him to thwart God's plan.
2. He knew the storm was coming and wanted to teach the disciples a lesson in faith.

And who was Jesus teaching a lesson to in the account of the woman pleading for her daughter?

He was teaching His disciples that, even though He had come to the Jews, His gospel was going to reach the whole world through them (here's where we insert another plea to stop being so exclusive and pretending that only you have the gospel right).

Or why was the father waiting at the end of the road in the parable of the prodigal son?

Obviously, hoping against hope that he would see his son coming back home, just like the Father does for us when we are far from Him. He doesn't hate us, He's not mad at us, He desperately wants us to come back to Him, and that's not the same thing as becoming a Catholic.

You don't know anything. So don't presume to think you are better than anyone.

Ah, but I don't. I'm just a Bible reader pointing out things I find in the Bible.

 

[ding]

You may very well have more knowledge about the Scriptures than I do, I don't endeavor to say otherwise. I do, however, point out that you are ignoring relevant Scripture that says God has called us all to be priests and saints.

Of course. Just off the top of my head, here.
1. He was tired and had no fear of anything the devil might throw at Him to thwart God's plan.
2. He knew the storm was coming and wanted to teach the disciples a lesson in faith.

He was teaching His disciples that, even though He had come to the Jews, His gospel was going to reach the whole world through them (here's where we insert another plea to stop being so exclusive and pretending that only you have the gospel right).

Obviously, hoping against hope that he would see his son coming back home, just like the Father does for us when we are far from Him. He doesn't hate us, He's not mad at us, He desperately wants us to come back to Him, and that's not the same thing as becoming a Catholic.

Ah, but I don't. I'm just a Bible reader pointing out things I find in the Bible.

I'm not ignoring relevant scripture. I am putting scripture in the context of that day. You are applying scripture to today arguing there is no need for priests today because everyone is a priest which is out of context.

Jesus was sleeping through the storm because that's how most people see God in their life when they are in troubled times. Jesus was teaching his disciples that the conventions of their time (non-Jews and women were less than male Jews) were wrong and he was testing the faith of the mother. The father was waiting at the end of the road because that's how God works; God is patiently waiting for us to make a move towards him, then he comes rushing at us like the father in the parable.

 

[hadit]

I'm not ignoring relevant scripture. I am putting scripture in the context of that day. You are applying scripture to today arguing there is no need for priests today because everyone is a priest which is out of context.

You want to argue endlessly that Jesus meant explicitly that the bread and wine were actually His body and blood in disguise and there is no other interpretation possible, yet you bend and twist to explain away God making us priests and saints.

In the context of the day, being called a royal priesthood was a tremendous blessing and comfort for the new believers, as most were Jews, and a royal priesthood was something very special. And no, there is no need for priests today, because nowhere in Scripture does it give a human being the power to summon Jesus from heaven with an incantation to provide His body and blood.

Tell me, does the priest actually make the transformation happen if he gets the wording wrong? Would you take communion if he said the wrong words? Does Jesus provide His body and blood if the priest is corrupt and in sin?

Jesus was sleeping through the storm because that's how most people see God in their life when they are in troubled times.

There are many possible things we can take from a particular story, because God uses the Word to illuminate something He wants us to understand, and they don't have just one fixed meaning. What you are demonstrating is not necessarily a knowledge of the Word, but a knowledge of what others have said about the Word. True knowledge of the Word is understanding God's heart.

Jesus was teaching his disciples that the conventions of their time (non-Jews and women were less than male Jews) were wrong.

Which is what I said. The Jews of the day held the Gentile world in contempt and Jesus opened the door to them just like Peter's vision did.

The father was waiting at the end of the road because God is waiting for us to move towards him then he will come rushing at us like the father in the parable.

What I said. There are many meanings behind the gospel stories if you bother to look.

 

[ding]

You want to argue endlessly that Jesus meant explicitly that the bread and wine were actually His body and blood in disguise and there is no other interpretation possible, yet you bend and twist to explain away God making us priests and saints.

In the context of the day, being called a royal priesthood was a tremendous blessing and comfort for the new believers, as most were Jews, and a royal priesthood was something very special. And no, there is no need for priests today, because nowhere in Scripture does it give a human being the power to summon Jesus from heaven with an incantation to provide His body and blood.

Tell me, does the priest actually make the transformation happen if he gets the wording wrong? Would you take communion if he said the wrong words? Does Jesus provide His body and blood if the priest is corrupt and in sin?

There are many possible things we can take from a particular story, because God uses the Word to illuminate something He wants us to understand, and they don't have just one fixed meaning. What you are demonstrating is not necessarily a knowledge of the Word, but a knowledge of what others have said about the Word. True knowledge of the Word is understanding God's heart.

Which is what I said. The Jews of the day held the Gentile world in contempt and Jesus opened the door to them just like Peter's vision did.

What I said. There are many meanings behind the gospel stories if you bother to look.

I don't want to argue at all. I share my beliefs and reasons for my beliefs. What others do with it is up to them.

It seems that you are the one who wants to argue endlessly on communion and priests. I've already said my piece. I don't need to say anything more. It's already been said.

 

[Meriweather]

It bothers me because "priest" and "saint" are titles God bestows on all believers and now otherwise Godly people don't believe they have those titles because to them they mean something completely different.

I grew up knowing, that on my baptism, I became a member of the Body of Christ and that we are a Royal Priesthood. I also learned that the terms 'Christians' and 'saints' are synonymous.

I am a teacher. Professors are teachers. Doctors (those who have doctorates in a subject) are teachers. Mrs/Mr/Ms, Professor, Doctor are all members of the teaching profession. Are you equally incensed that there are separate categories of teachers? If so, why? If not, then why be incensed that with in the Royal Priesthood, there are also categories known as priests, ministers, reverends, deacons, Pope?

 

[hadit]

I grew up knowing, that on my baptism, I became a member of the Body of Christ and that we are a Royal Priesthood. I also learned that the terms 'Christians' and 'saints' are synonymous.

I wish your fellow Catholic understood that. My problem with the Church using those titles is that it leads Christians to believe they are not saints and priests when God says they are.

I am a teacher. Professors are teachers. Doctors (those who have doctorates in a subject) are teachers. Mrs/Mr/Ms, Professor, Doctor are all members of the teaching profession. Are you equally incensed that there are separate categories of teachers? If so, why? If not, then why be incensed that with in the Royal Priesthood, there are also categories known as priests, ministers, reverends, deacons, Pope?

As I've explained before, my problem with the Church using those titles is that God has already used them to mean something different. A Christian should be able to confidently say, "I am a priest and a saint, because God says I am".

Pope is not a Biblical title. The Church has only one individual leader, and that is Jesus Christ. We should not be putting that much faith into a single human being. And yes, before you have to say it, some non-Catholic church leaders set themselves up to be the one and only voice of God.

 

[Meriweather]

I wish your fellow Catholic understood that.

They do. I learned all of it from fellow Catholics. I wish you could understand that.

 

[hadit]

They do. I learned all of it from fellow Catholics. I wish you could understand that.

I'm talking about that other poster who says the Scripture doesn't say what it says.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

It does seem weird at first glance, but I cannot deny its power. Can you imagine suffering greatly for someone else? Could you do it?

Jesus was God and knew he would be hung and resurrected in 3 days because he never really could die. While he was hun upright, other seditionists were hung upside down along some deserted road as a warning to others and were slowly eaten by buzzards,

This "Jesus sacrificed" is one of the biggest lies ever. Thousands were killed and tortured far worse back in those days.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

It's true. Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ.

The Real Presence is taught by St. Paul. “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 11:26-27).

The Real Presence was taught by the twelve apostles. “Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: ‘Do not give to dogs what is sacred” (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, or Didache, 9:5).

The Real Presence was upheld by early Christians.

It was upheld by St. Ignatius of Antioch in the first century: “Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, circa 90 AD).

It was upheld by St. Justin Martyr in the second century: “This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, circa 150 AD).

It was upheld by St. Clement of Alexandria in the third century: “The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, – of the drink and of the Word, – is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word” (St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of the Children, circa 202 AD).

It was upheld by St. Cyril of Jerusalem in the fourth century: “Since then He Himself has declared and said of the Bread, (This is My Body), who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has affirmed and said, (This is My Blood), who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, circa 350 AD).

Early Church Fathers Upholding Transubstantiation in Their Own Words

Transubstantiation, wherein bread and wine change into the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharist has been part of Catholicism since the very beginning..

www.magiscenter.com

Yes. Your very weird story is true. Take it from an altar boy who used to hold the wafers. Probably one of several main reasons I questioned the cult at the tender age of 11.

 

[ding]

Jesus was God and knew he would be hung and resurrected in 3 days because he never really could die. While he was hun upright, other seditionists were hung upside down along some deserted road as a warning to others and were slowly eaten by buzzards,

This "Jesus sacrificed" is one of the biggest lies ever. Thousands were killed and tortured far worse back in those days.

Jesus was fully man and fully God. At first they couldn't wrap their minds around Jesus being God. Later they couldn't wrap their minds around Jesus being fully man. That seems to be your problem now. Unfortunately for you there's evidence you have to dismiss that exists that details his exploits.

 

[ding]

Yes. Your very weird story is true. Take it from an altar boy who used to hold the wafers. Probably one of several main reasons I questioned the cult at the tender age of 11.

Your arguments do seem to be that of an eleven year old.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Jesus was fully man and fully God. At first they couldn't wrap their minds around Jesus being God. Later they couldn't wrap their minds around Jesus being fully man. That seems to be your problem now. Unfortunately for you there's evidence you have to dismiss that exists that details his exploits.

What you are suggesting is that Jesus did not know he was God, when most Christians assert that he did know. You want your cake and eat it too all the time.

 

[ding]

I'm talking about that other poster who says the Scripture doesn't say what it says.

What you - and even the Catholic Church - call "the royal priesthood" or common priesthood, I call being a witness or an example of a "shining light." I do so, so as to not confuse that term with the ministerial priesthood which is what you have done. You have taken that passage out of context to justify your belief that there is no need for ministerial priests.

 

[ding]

What you are suggesting is that Jesus did not know he was God, when most Christians assert that he did know. You want your cake and eat it too all the time.

No. That's not what I am suggesting. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Your arguments do seem to be that of an eleven year old.

I sacrifice all the time. That is the way life works and why humans like to be spoon-fed that someone ELSE did their sacrifice FOR them. That makes them feel guilty and repentant....the hook that the Bishops needed to get throngs of believers. Emotions.

Did you know that the New Left has borrowed every single one of the hooks the Catholics use to win and keep converts? Fear first, then hatred of nonbelievers such as instilling hate against Trump and Musk like Christians are told nonbelievers are heathens. After fear and hate comes guilt, shame, and remorse. If all that doesn't work, the left uses shunning, banning, contempt, ridicule, and shame.

All of those emotions are highly effective for the religious and the liberals.

 

[ding]

I sacrifice all the time. That is the way life works and why humans like to be spoon-fed that someone ELSE did their sacrifice FOR them. That makes them feel guilty and repentant....the hook that the Bishops needed to get throngs of believers. Emotions.

Did you know that the New Left has borrowed every single one of the hooks the Catholics use to win and keep converts? Fear first, then hatred of nonbelievers such as instilling hate against Trump and Musk like Christians are told nonbelievers are heathens. After fear and hate comes guilt, shame, and remorse. If all that doesn't work, the left uses shunning, banning, contempt, ridicule, and shame.

All of those emotions are highly effective for the religious and the liberals.

If you think Christ's redeeming actions removes all responsibilities for our actions, then you didn't pay much attention to what the Church taught because it doesn't.

Our suffering is God's greatest expression of love because it brings us closer to Christ. Making sacrifices is a necessity. Everyone will suffer. Everyone will make sacrifices. But not all will find meaning and joy from their sacrifices nor will their suffering and sacrifices bring them closer to God.

As for your new left argument, yes, socialism has coopted Christianity. So what? I disagree with your assessment that the Church has used fear and hatred to win and keep converts. I also disagree that we should abandon our faith because others have misused moral arguments. That would be like me abandoning my firearms because someone else misused their firearms.

 

[hadit]

What you - and even the Catholic Church - call "the royal priesthood" or common priesthood, I call being a witness or an example of a "shining light." I do so, so as to not confuse that term with the ministerial priesthood which is what you have done. You have taken that passage out of context to justify your belief that there is no need for ministerial priests.

The Church should use a different title, that's what I'm saying.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

If you think Christ's redeeming actions removes all responsibilities for our actions, then you didn't pay much attention to what the Church taught because it doesn't.

Our suffering is God's greatest expression of love because it brings us closer to Christ. Making sacrifices is a necessity. Everyone will suffer. Everyone will make sacrifices. But not all will find meaning and joy from their sacrifices nor will their suffering and sacrifices bring them closer to God.

As for your new left argument, yes, socialism has coopted Christianity. So what? I disagree with your assessment that the Church has used fear and hatred to win and keep converts. I also disagree that we should abandon our faith because others have misused moral arguments. That would be like me abandoning my firearms because someone else misused their firearms.

You just want to "insert God here" into everything when it isn't necessary. The people at the top are those who have endured more sacrifices than others. This is the way life works because average people won't make the sacrifices in life needed to get where people want to be. I have a daughter-in-law who prayed for the silliest things. One was that her child would get good grades and when she did, she said it was because of her prayers. It is that sort of thing that drives me crazy where humans think that some god is going to intercede in another person's life because they want him to or worse yet, in their own lives. It's like praying for a better-paying job when you haven't paid the price by sacrificing leisure time and studying instead at night school.

It is dangerous to "insert god here" because then you assert that someone ELSE sacrificed for you, like Jesus when you admit that we must sacrifice. How else can someone get ahead of others without sacrifice? You don't need some imaginary god or priest to tell you this.