E.E.O.C. ??

[Concerned American]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

It sounds as if I've worked in a professional capacity, I'm so flattered lol

The very first job I ever applied for I got even though I wasn't actually old enough to hold the position. I got the highest score out of everyone who took the civil service exam so they never even noticed my age. I was in high school therefore math, reading comprehension and whatever else they tested me was the same thing I was doing everyday in school.

In a "professional" environment, or rather my professional environment, they don't give tests. They figure if Microsoft has certified you then they don't need to test you although they will still do a technical interview and/or have you white board a solution to a problem to demonstrate your coding skills.

A single test score doesn't tell the whole story and not everyone tests well. You haven't even mentioned background, experience, education whatever the candidate resume shows.

What if the person who scored 97 has no educational background beyond high school, while the one with the 75 does?

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom who hasn't worked at the tasks being tested for in a while but states she can be back up to speed very quickly and you believe her because she used to do the same type of work?

What if the person who scored 75 is a guy who recently lost his job and whose wife just had a new baby and he needs to find another one quickly while the candidate who scored the 97 is a new college graduate who has several more interviews lined up.

Over the years I have had various people tell me why they selected the other candidate for the job while indicating that I was actually the most qualified candidate - "he has a family he has to take care of and you don't" is one that particularly stuck with me as if there was no need for me to take care for myself since no one else was. Another was "oh you'll find another job easily" and in another situation a company employee threw a temper tantrum and threatened to quit unless they gave him my job. In the first two of these instances it was determined that these men "needed" the job more than I did. The last situation was simply about him taking the job away from me. And me being young and inexperienced in the first two cases, I agreed that it was most fair to give it to the person who "needed" it the most. The last instance, motivated me to obtain my first Microsoft certification as a software developer although I already had obtained MS certification as a network engineer.

I'm still interested in if you have the same feelings towards individuals taking your place who are younger and better equipped mentally/physically and are newly educated, as you do when the person who displaces you is black, because logically speaking, if the black person is younger, better equipped, more recently and better educated than you, why would you not just bow out gracefully like you would do in the first case due to age? And do you think that black person is actually still less qualified than you?

Thank you for validating my point--excuses don't get it done.

 

[Mac-7]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

You can't make that claim if you have never examined the tests themselves.

As I recall, the test consisted in part of true/false and multiple choice questions (both objective with specific correct answers) while another portion consisted of subjective questions whereas the correct answer is determined by whoever grades the test.

To give you an example, I was asked on a certification exam which statement below would result in only positive numbers. Two of the viable possibilities were
x > 0 and
x >= 0

Only one of the two above is correct but in a subjective scenario the second answer can be "considered" correct because it will partially produce the correct result while not actually being the correct answer.

In an objective scenario only the 1st answer is the correct one however when I posted this dilemma to the members of USMB a significant portion of the responses indicated, erroneously I might add, that the 2nd answer was correct. Microsoft indicated that my answer of X > 0 was incorrect and that the second answer is correct which is false, however Microsoft gets the final word.

Depending on who is grading the tests, some applicants could receive partial credit for getting some of the answer right, while the person grading the exams would mark the answer incorrect if the candidate got any portion of it wrong. That is one of the reasons examining the tests would have been helpful. I don't know why the defendants were not sanctioned for the destruction of those exams.

Or maybe a better example would be a scenario just as an example, if the applicant is asked to name 5 of the exemptions that allows a government agency to deny a FOIA request - one candidates provides 4 correct and 1 incorrect answer and gets credit of .8 on the answer while another candidate gets 4 correct and 1 incorrect and the test grader marks the entire question wrong with a credit of 0 allowing the one wrong portion out of the 5 to invalidate the entire question.

See why examining the tests would have been helpful? We would have been able to see what was considered an acceptable answer and what was not and see how the answers of the different groups compared to one another.

This is a court transcript in which the firefighter exams are being discussed if interested:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123087/2208015/2219585/Exhibit E.pdf

Boiled down to the bone what your argument amounts to is cultural bias in the test

And I dont accept that as a valid excuse for black people who failed the test

Firefighting depends on a team effort

Everyone must understand each other and know what to expect in an emergency

There cannot be a black response mixed with a white and hispanic response

That produces chaos

And what would have been the best way to avoid that? Examining the test results which apparently no one wanted to happen.

Who sued who?

The city refused to promote the mostly white firefighters who pasted the test and white firemen sued the city

If you are correct it means the city destroyed evidence that would have helped it

Which is not logical

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

It sounds as if I've worked in a professional capacity, I'm so flattered lol

The very first job I ever applied for I got even though I wasn't actually old enough to hold the position. I got the highest score out of everyone who took the civil service exam so they never even noticed my age. I was in high school therefore math, reading comprehension and whatever else they tested me was the same thing I was doing everyday in school.

In a "professional" environment, or rather my professional environment, they don't give tests. They figure if Microsoft has certified you then they don't need to test you although they will still do a technical interview and/or have you white board a solution to a problem to demonstrate your coding skills.

A single test score doesn't tell the whole story and not everyone tests well. You haven't even mentioned background, experience, education whatever the candidate resume shows.

What if the person who scored 97 has no educational background beyond high school, while the one with the 75 does?

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom who hasn't worked at the tasks being tested for in a while but states she can be back up to speed very quickly and you believe her because she used to do the same type of work?

What if the person who scored 75 is a guy who recently lost his job and whose wife just had a new baby and he needs to find another one quickly while the candidate who scored the 97 is a new college graduate who has several more interviews lined up.

Over the years I have had various people tell me why they selected the other candidate for the job while indicating that I was actually the most qualified candidate - "he has a family he has to take care of and you don't" is one that particularly stuck with me as if there was no need for me to take care for myself since no one else was. Another was "oh you'll find another job easily" and in another situation a company employee threw a temper tantrum and threatened to quit unless they gave him my job. In the first two of these instances it was determined that these men "needed" the job more than I did. The last situation was simply about him taking the job away from me. And me being young and inexperienced in the first two cases, I agreed that it was most fair to give it to the person who "needed" it the most. The last instance, motivated me to obtain my first Microsoft certification as a software developer although I already had obtained MS certification as a network engineer.

I'm still interested in if you have the same feelings towards individuals taking your place who are younger and better equipped mentally/physically and are newly educated, as you do when the person who displaces you is black, because logically speaking, if the black person is younger, better equipped, more recently and better educated than you, why would you not just bow out gracefully like you would do in the first case due to age? And do you think that black person is actually still less qualified than you?

Thank you for validating my point--excuses don't get it done.

Ahh, don't be like that. You know I did no such thing but I'll accept your concession.

Not always, but often I am the most qualified candidate for the contracts I obtain and it is why I continuously study, update my skills, certifications, education and training in order to keep up with the technical requirements of companies today yet I've also had to consider who was the best candidate for our team, company or my business. It is and should always be a combination of candidate abilities & attributes, experience, training and/or education and even sometimes simply a person who needs the "opportunity" to get their foot in the door in a specific industry.

Anyway I know you have your own [negative and erroneous] thoughts about black people and specifically me but you know, you all could have done the same things I have, it probably would have gone easier for you than it did me but since you didn't try we'll never know.

My latest

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

You can't make that claim if you have never examined the tests themselves.

As I recall, the test consisted in part of true/false and multiple choice questions (both objective with specific correct answers) while another portion consisted of subjective questions whereas the correct answer is determined by whoever grades the test.

To give you an example, I was asked on a certification exam which statement below would result in only positive numbers. Two of the viable possibilities were
x > 0 and
x >= 0

Only one of the two above is correct but in a subjective scenario the second answer can be "considered" correct because it will partially produce the correct result while not actually being the correct answer.

In an objective scenario only the 1st answer is the correct one however when I posted this dilemma to the members of USMB a significant portion of the responses indicated, erroneously I might add, that the 2nd answer was correct. Microsoft indicated that my answer of X > 0 was incorrect and that the second answer is correct which is false, however Microsoft gets the final word.

Depending on who is grading the tests, some applicants could receive partial credit for getting some of the answer right, while the person grading the exams would mark the answer incorrect if the candidate got any portion of it wrong. That is one of the reasons examining the tests would have been helpful. I don't know why the defendants were not sanctioned for the destruction of those exams.

Or maybe a better example would be a scenario just as an example, if the applicant is asked to name 5 of the exemptions that allows a government agency to deny a FOIA request - one candidates provides 4 correct and 1 incorrect answer and gets credit of .8 on the answer while another candidate gets 4 correct and 1 incorrect and the test grader marks the entire question wrong with a credit of 0 allowing the one wrong portion out of the 5 to invalidate the entire question.

See why examining the tests would have been helpful? We would have been able to see what was considered an acceptable answer and what was not and see how the answers of the different groups compared to one another.

This is a court transcript in which the firefighter exams are being discussed if interested:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123087/2208015/2219585/Exhibit E.pdf

Boiled down to the bone what your argument amounts to is cultural bias in the test

And I dont accept that as a valid excuse for black people who failed the test

Firefighting depends on a team effort

Everyone must understand each other and know what to expect in an emergency

There cannot be a black response mixed with a white and hispanic response

That produces chaos

And what would have been the best way to avoid that? Examining the test results which apparently no one wanted to happen.

Who sued who?
The city refused to promote the mostly white firefighters who pasted the test and white firemen sued the city

If you are correct it means the city destroyed evidence that would have helped it

Which is not logical

Well if you think about, there must have been something extremely disturbing about the test results if they 1) threw them out and promoted no one, and 2) sealed the results and had them destroyed.

We only have their word and testimony that all of the black firefighters failed the exam yet they destroyed their proof of that assertion. Of course that's not logical but that's what people sometimes do when they're trying to hide something.
I mean that's a tried and true method of preventing information from coming to light so much so that there is a legal term for it, spoliation - the deliberate/negligent destruction of evidence that may be the subject of a subpoena duces tecum for examination in a court proceeding.

I haven't read anything about this case in several years so it's quite possible that I don't have all of the details straight but I do remember it was a contentious situation and case.

 

[Mac-7]

We only have their word and testimony that all of the black firefighters failed the exam yet they destroyed their proof of that assertion.

The fly in your ointment is that the black firefighters were not suing the city for mistreatment

It was whites who passed the test and were denied promotion

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

You can't make that claim if you have never examined the tests themselves.

As I recall, the test consisted in part of true/false and multiple choice questions (both objective with specific correct answers) while another portion consisted of subjective questions whereas the correct answer is determined by whoever grades the test.

To give you an example, I was asked on a certification exam which statement below would result in only positive numbers. Two of the viable possibilities were
x > 0 and
x >= 0

Only one of the two above is correct but in a subjective scenario the second answer can be "considered" correct because it will partially produce the correct result while not actually being the correct answer.

In an objective scenario only the 1st answer is the correct one however when I posted this dilemma to the members of USMB a significant portion of the responses indicated, erroneously I might add, that the 2nd answer was correct. Microsoft indicated that my answer of X > 0 was incorrect and that the second answer is correct which is false, however Microsoft gets the final word.

Depending on who is grading the tests, some applicants could receive partial credit for getting some of the answer right, while the person grading the exams would mark the answer incorrect if the candidate got any portion of it wrong. That is one of the reasons examining the tests would have been helpful. I don't know why the defendants were not sanctioned for the destruction of those exams.

Or maybe a better example would be a scenario just as an example, if the applicant is asked to name 5 of the exemptions that allows a government agency to deny a FOIA request - one candidates provides 4 correct and 1 incorrect answer and gets credit of .8 on the answer while another candidate gets 4 correct and 1 incorrect and the test grader marks the entire question wrong with a credit of 0 allowing the one wrong portion out of the 5 to invalidate the entire question.

See why examining the tests would have been helpful? We would have been able to see what was considered an acceptable answer and what was not and see how the answers of the different groups compared to one another.

This is a court transcript in which the firefighter exams are being discussed if interested:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123087/2208015/2219585/Exhibit E.pdf

Boiled down to the bone what your argument amounts to is cultural bias in the test

And I dont accept that as a valid excuse for black people who failed the test

Firefighting depends on a team effort

Everyone must understand each other and know what to expect in an emergency

There cannot be a black response mixed with a white and hispanic response

That produces chaos

And what would have been the best way to avoid that? Examining the test results which apparently no one wanted to happen.

Who sued who?

The city refused to promote the mostly white firefighters who pasted the test and white firemen sued the city

If you are correct it means the city destroyed evidence that would have helped it

Which is not logical

This is what I get for not taking the time out to refresh my memory on this case, it's not exactly as I recalled it.

The case is more complex than the way it's been presented here (by both sides). It's not that none of the black firefighters passed the test, it was that their ranking system didn't allow them to appear high enough on the list to get selected for promotion and there apparently were complaints about the test itself, what was on it and that it didn't relate to the work they did as firefighters.
Briscoe v. City of New Haven, 967 F. Supp. 2d 563 | Casetext Search + Citator

 

[Mac-7]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

You can't make that claim if you have never examined the tests themselves.

As I recall, the test consisted in part of true/false and multiple choice questions (both objective with specific correct answers) while another portion consisted of subjective questions whereas the correct answer is determined by whoever grades the test.

To give you an example, I was asked on a certification exam which statement below would result in only positive numbers. Two of the viable possibilities were
x > 0 and
x >= 0

Only one of the two above is correct but in a subjective scenario the second answer can be "considered" correct because it will partially produce the correct result while not actually being the correct answer.

In an objective scenario only the 1st answer is the correct one however when I posted this dilemma to the members of USMB a significant portion of the responses indicated, erroneously I might add, that the 2nd answer was correct. Microsoft indicated that my answer of X > 0 was incorrect and that the second answer is correct which is false, however Microsoft gets the final word.

Depending on who is grading the tests, some applicants could receive partial credit for getting some of the answer right, while the person grading the exams would mark the answer incorrect if the candidate got any portion of it wrong. That is one of the reasons examining the tests would have been helpful. I don't know why the defendants were not sanctioned for the destruction of those exams.

Or maybe a better example would be a scenario just as an example, if the applicant is asked to name 5 of the exemptions that allows a government agency to deny a FOIA request - one candidates provides 4 correct and 1 incorrect answer and gets credit of .8 on the answer while another candidate gets 4 correct and 1 incorrect and the test grader marks the entire question wrong with a credit of 0 allowing the one wrong portion out of the 5 to invalidate the entire question.

See why examining the tests would have been helpful? We would have been able to see what was considered an acceptable answer and what was not and see how the answers of the different groups compared to one another.

This is a court transcript in which the firefighter exams are being discussed if interested:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123087/2208015/2219585/Exhibit E.pdf

Boiled down to the bone what your argument amounts to is cultural bias in the test

And I dont accept that as a valid excuse for black people who failed the test

Firefighting depends on a team effort

Everyone must understand each other and know what to expect in an emergency

There cannot be a black response mixed with a white and hispanic response

That produces chaos

And what would have been the best way to avoid that? Examining the test results which apparently no one wanted to happen.

Who sued who?

The city refused to promote the mostly white firefighters who pasted the test and white firemen sued the city

If you are correct it means the city destroyed evidence that would have helped it

Which is not logical

This is what I get for not taking the time out to refresh my memory on this case, it's not exactly as I recalled it.

The case is more complex than the way it's been presented here (by both sides). It's not that none of the black firefighters passed the test, it was that their ranking system didn't allow them to appear high enough on the list to get selected for promotion and there apparently were complaints about the test itself, what was on it and that it didn't relate to the work they did as firefighters.
Briscoe v. City of New Haven, 967 F. Supp. 2d 563 | Casetext Search + Citator

New Haven is a good example of how the liberal brain works

The city fathers didnt trust the white FD chain of command to promote firemen so they hired an outside provate company to write a test - at great expense no doubt


That represented equal opportunity which is something liberals claim to want

But when the test results came back only white firefighters and one hispanic scored high enough to reach the promotion list

This exposed the true agenda of liberals

Not equal opportunity but instead equal results

The lib city fathers wanted their fire department to look like a modern tv commercial, with an equal number of smiling faces representing all races and genders

So they refused to promote anyone

 

[Concerned American]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

It sounds as if I've worked in a professional capacity, I'm so flattered lol

The very first job I ever applied for I got even though I wasn't actually old enough to hold the position. I got the highest score out of everyone who took the civil service exam so they never even noticed my age. I was in high school therefore math, reading comprehension and whatever else they tested me was the same thing I was doing everyday in school.

In a "professional" environment, or rather my professional environment, they don't give tests. They figure if Microsoft has certified you then they don't need to test you although they will still do a technical interview and/or have you white board a solution to a problem to demonstrate your coding skills.

A single test score doesn't tell the whole story and not everyone tests well. You haven't even mentioned background, experience, education whatever the candidate resume shows.

What if the person who scored 97 has no educational background beyond high school, while the one with the 75 does?

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom who hasn't worked at the tasks being tested for in a while but states she can be back up to speed very quickly and you believe her because she used to do the same type of work?

What if the person who scored 75 is a guy who recently lost his job and whose wife just had a new baby and he needs to find another one quickly while the candidate who scored the 97 is a new college graduate who has several more interviews lined up.

Over the years I have had various people tell me why they selected the other candidate for the job while indicating that I was actually the most qualified candidate - "he has a family he has to take care of and you don't" is one that particularly stuck with me as if there was no need for me to take care for myself since no one else was. Another was "oh you'll find another job easily" and in another situation a company employee threw a temper tantrum and threatened to quit unless they gave him my job. In the first two of these instances it was determined that these men "needed" the job more than I did. The last situation was simply about him taking the job away from me. And me being young and inexperienced in the first two cases, I agreed that it was most fair to give it to the person who "needed" it the most. The last instance, motivated me to obtain my first Microsoft certification as a software developer although I already had obtained MS certification as a network engineer.

I'm still interested in if you have the same feelings towards individuals taking your place who are younger and better equipped mentally/physically and are newly educated, as you do when the person who displaces you is black, because logically speaking, if the black person is younger, better equipped, more recently and better educated than you, why would you not just bow out gracefully like you would do in the first case due to age? And do you think that black person is actually still less qualified than you?

Thank you for validating my point--excuses don't get it done.

Ahh, don't be like that. You know I did no such thing but I'll accept your concession.

Not always, but often I am the most qualified candidate for the contracts I obtain and it is why I continuously study, update my skills, certifications, education and training in order to keep up with the technical requirements of companies today yet I've also had to consider who was the best candidate for our team, company or my business. It is and should always be a combination of candidate abilities & attributes, experience, training and/or education and even sometimes simply a person who needs the "opportunity" to get their foot in the door in a specific industry.

Anyway I know you have your own [negative and erroneous] thoughts about black people and specifically me but you know, you all could have done the same things I have, it probably would have gone easier for you than it did me but since you didn't try we'll never know.

My latest
View attachment 493311

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom-- Excuse--no concession. It is an excuse and you won't recognize it. We call that obtuse.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

It sounds as if I've worked in a professional capacity, I'm so flattered lol

The very first job I ever applied for I got even though I wasn't actually old enough to hold the position. I got the highest score out of everyone who took the civil service exam so they never even noticed my age. I was in high school therefore math, reading comprehension and whatever else they tested me was the same thing I was doing everyday in school.

In a "professional" environment, or rather my professional environment, they don't give tests. They figure if Microsoft has certified you then they don't need to test you although they will still do a technical interview and/or have you white board a solution to a problem to demonstrate your coding skills.

A single test score doesn't tell the whole story and not everyone tests well. You haven't even mentioned background, experience, education whatever the candidate resume shows.

What if the person who scored 97 has no educational background beyond high school, while the one with the 75 does?

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom who hasn't worked at the tasks being tested for in a while but states she can be back up to speed very quickly and you believe her because she used to do the same type of work?

What if the person who scored 75 is a guy who recently lost his job and whose wife just had a new baby and he needs to find another one quickly while the candidate who scored the 97 is a new college graduate who has several more interviews lined up.

Over the years I have had various people tell me why they selected the other candidate for the job while indicating that I was actually the most qualified candidate - "he has a family he has to take care of and you don't" is one that particularly stuck with me as if there was no need for me to take care for myself since no one else was. Another was "oh you'll find another job easily" and in another situation a company employee threw a temper tantrum and threatened to quit unless they gave him my job. In the first two of these instances it was determined that these men "needed" the job more than I did. The last situation was simply about him taking the job away from me. And me being young and inexperienced in the first two cases, I agreed that it was most fair to give it to the person who "needed" it the most. The last instance, motivated me to obtain my first Microsoft certification as a software developer although I already had obtained MS certification as a network engineer.

I'm still interested in if you have the same feelings towards individuals taking your place who are younger and better equipped mentally/physically and are newly educated, as you do when the person who displaces you is black, because logically speaking, if the black person is younger, better equipped, more recently and better educated than you, why would you not just bow out gracefully like you would do in the first case due to age? And do you think that black person is actually still less qualified than you?

Thank you for validating my point--excuses don't get it done.

Ahh, don't be like that. You know I did no such thing but I'll accept your concession.

Not always, but often I am the most qualified candidate for the contracts I obtain and it is why I continuously study, update my skills, certifications, education and training in order to keep up with the technical requirements of companies today yet I've also had to consider who was the best candidate for our team, company or my business. It is and should always be a combination of candidate abilities & attributes, experience, training and/or education and even sometimes simply a person who needs the "opportunity" to get their foot in the door in a specific industry.

Anyway I know you have your own [negative and erroneous] thoughts about black people and specifically me but you know, you all could have done the same things I have, it probably would have gone easier for you than it did me but since you didn't try we'll never know.

My latest
View attachment 493311

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom-- Excuse--no concession. It is an excuse and you won't recognize it. We call that obtuse.

What I have been trying to get you to see is that you're engaging in one dimensional thinking. Nothing is ever as simple as "the candidate who scored 97% is the best candidate for the job".

IF the only criteria is a high score on a single exam then yes on paper the candidate who scored a 97 versus the candidate who scored a 75 is the better candidate for the job.

In real life however, there is rarely a single measure of a candidate's eligibility or suitability. It's a combination of various areas of consideration. What if the candidate who scores 97 keeps getting fired? They may know how to get the score to obtain the job but for some reason their previous employers refuse to keep them on the job. That's not someone I would consider the best candidate no matter how well they did on the exam.

Being a stay-at-home mom who of necessity has to return to the workforce but hasn't worked in a decade and whose skill set is rusty is not "an excuse" it's reality for some people. According to you, everyone who is not in the top 3 percentile doesn't deserve an opportunity, ever?

I have found over my career that if someone wants to hire you, then can find something in your resume or credentials to justify that hiring decision. If they don't want to hire you, they can find something to use as well such as "she doesn't fit well into our company culture" which I think is no longer a viable legal reason for not hiring someone because it's been used in the past to exclude minorities.

The real life scenarios (not excuses) that I have presented to you have actually occurred. My sister for example had to return to work after a decade as a stay at home mom and not only did she catch up and do well, she went back to school while working and obtained her bachelor and then her master degree. She is currently working on her PhD and has been the director of educational programs for her employers. Her daughter who just turned 21 will be a senior this fall and God willing in approximately a year from now will be graduating college with her bachelor degree.

You shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know based on the fact that they are African American especially people who have access to the types of data that I do. Without knowing anything about you at all except what you've posted, it's obvious that for whatever reasons, the progress that black people are making in America in the very least makes you uncomfortable and even perhaps resentful because there is absolutely no reason for you to continue to be as insulting as you are to people who have never caused you any harm, irrespective of whatever it is you're imagining.

I guess we should be thankful that you're retired in case you were working in an HR or hiring capacity.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

We only have their word and testimony that all of the black firefighters failed the exam yet they destroyed their proof of that assertion.

The fly in your ointment is that the black firefighters were not suing the city for mistreatment

It was whites who passed the test and were denied promotion

You didn't read the link did you, there is no fly in the ointment

In this action Plaintiff Michael Briscoe, an African–American firefighter employed by Defendant City of New Haven (“the City”), sues the City under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, 42 U.S.C. § 2000e et seq. Plaintiff alleges that the City's selection process for promotion to the rank of Lieutenant within the Fire Department had a discriminatory disparate impact upon black firefighters. Plaintiff's Third Amended Complaint (“TAC”), the operative pleading, also asserts a pendent claim under municipal law.​

 

[IM2]

It's nearly impossible to find qualified blacks-- -- -- we can't even find qualified blacks to give open, honest and erudite opinions here on USMB!

Have you ever considered that it's not that they can't be found, it's that you are unable to recognize them when you do? Hell you've certainly proven that by your snide comment about the blacks who post here on USMB.

As a former CEO, I have no problem at all recognizing people who meet the vital qualifications to any task. As to the Blacks here, do they come with a special marking to indicate they are Black? Because other than that, I don't care what color a person is here and only know the color of a very few here because they make it a POINT to tell folks they are Black.

Of those, there is maybe one I'd consider hiring for a job. The rest make it a point of mentioning that only because they seemingly have real hang ups about their selves.

What's YOUR excuse?

Stop lying. You're a racist and you don't hire blacks. You are not colorblind, in fact you care mostly about the color of a persons skin. Don't try that bullshit about people mentioning race when you and others have gone so far as to criticize our names. You are the one with a hang up and being the CEO of a sole proprietorship doesn't mean jack squat.

 

[IM2]

So the person who got 97 percent on the exam gets the job, can't get along with the male firefighters and harasses the female ones. Was that person really the most qualified for the job?

 

[IM2]

Did these tests exist during Jim Crow when whites were hired only because of their race?

 

[Concerned American]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

It sounds as if I've worked in a professional capacity, I'm so flattered lol

The very first job I ever applied for I got even though I wasn't actually old enough to hold the position. I got the highest score out of everyone who took the civil service exam so they never even noticed my age. I was in high school therefore math, reading comprehension and whatever else they tested me was the same thing I was doing everyday in school.

In a "professional" environment, or rather my professional environment, they don't give tests. They figure if Microsoft has certified you then they don't need to test you although they will still do a technical interview and/or have you white board a solution to a problem to demonstrate your coding skills.

A single test score doesn't tell the whole story and not everyone tests well. You haven't even mentioned background, experience, education whatever the candidate resume shows.

What if the person who scored 97 has no educational background beyond high school, while the one with the 75 does?

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom who hasn't worked at the tasks being tested for in a while but states she can be back up to speed very quickly and you believe her because she used to do the same type of work?

What if the person who scored 75 is a guy who recently lost his job and whose wife just had a new baby and he needs to find another one quickly while the candidate who scored the 97 is a new college graduate who has several more interviews lined up.

Over the years I have had various people tell me why they selected the other candidate for the job while indicating that I was actually the most qualified candidate - "he has a family he has to take care of and you don't" is one that particularly stuck with me as if there was no need for me to take care for myself since no one else was. Another was "oh you'll find another job easily" and in another situation a company employee threw a temper tantrum and threatened to quit unless they gave him my job. In the first two of these instances it was determined that these men "needed" the job more than I did. The last situation was simply about him taking the job away from me. And me being young and inexperienced in the first two cases, I agreed that it was most fair to give it to the person who "needed" it the most. The last instance, motivated me to obtain my first Microsoft certification as a software developer although I already had obtained MS certification as a network engineer.

I'm still interested in if you have the same feelings towards individuals taking your place who are younger and better equipped mentally/physically and are newly educated, as you do when the person who displaces you is black, because logically speaking, if the black person is younger, better equipped, more recently and better educated than you, why would you not just bow out gracefully like you would do in the first case due to age? And do you think that black person is actually still less qualified than you?

Thank you for validating my point--excuses don't get it done.

Ahh, don't be like that. You know I did no such thing but I'll accept your concession.

Not always, but often I am the most qualified candidate for the contracts I obtain and it is why I continuously study, update my skills, certifications, education and training in order to keep up with the technical requirements of companies today yet I've also had to consider who was the best candidate for our team, company or my business. It is and should always be a combination of candidate abilities & attributes, experience, training and/or education and even sometimes simply a person who needs the "opportunity" to get their foot in the door in a specific industry.

Anyway I know you have your own [negative and erroneous] thoughts about black people and specifically me but you know, you all could have done the same things I have, it probably would have gone easier for you than it did me but since you didn't try we'll never know.

My latest
View attachment 493311

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom-- Excuse--no concession. It is an excuse and you won't recognize it. We call that obtuse.

What I have been trying to get you to see is that you're engaging in one dimensional thinking. Nothing is ever as simple as "the candidate who scored 97% is the best candidate for the job".

IF the only criteria is a high score on a single exam then yes on paper the candidate who scored a 97 versus the candidate who scored a 75 is the better candidate for the job.

In real life however, there is rarely a single measure of a candidate's eligibility or suitability. It's a combination of various areas of consideration. What if the candidate who scores 97 keeps getting fired? They may know how to get the score to obtain the job but for some reason their previous employers refuse to keep them on the job. That's not someone I would consider the best candidate no matter how well they did on the exam.

Being a stay-at-home mom who of necessity has to return to the workforce but hasn't worked in a decade and whose skill set is rusty is not "an excuse" it's reality for some people. According to you, everyone who is not in the top 3 percentile doesn't deserve an opportunity, ever?

I have found over my career that if someone wants to hire you, then can find something in your resume or credentials to justify that hiring decision. If they don't want to hire you, they can find something to use as well such as "she doesn't fit well into our company culture" which I think is no longer a viable legal reason for not hiring someone because it's been used in the past to exclude minorities.

The real life scenarios (not excuses) that I have presented to you have actually occurred. My sister for example had to return to work after a decade as a stay at home mom and not only did she catch up and do well, she went back to school while working and obtained her bachelor and then her master degree. She is Ocurrently working on her PhD and has been the director of educational programs for her employers. Her daughter who just turned 21 will be a senior this fall and God willing in approximately a year from now will be graduating college with her bachelor degree.

You shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know based on the fact that they are African American especially people who have access to the types of data that I do. Without knowing anything about you at all except what you've posted, it's obvious that for whatever reasons, the progress that black people are making in America in the very least makes you uncomfortable and even perhaps resentful because there is absolutely no reason for you to continue to be as insulting as you are to people who have never caused you any harm, irrespective of whatever it is you're imagining.

I guess we should be thankful that you're retired in case you were working in an HR or hiring capacity.

Of course the score on a single test wouldn't be the only criteria--the example was for illustrative purposes. I believe I was very clear. Re: the rusty excuse, sorry, your choice to stay at home and allow your skills to deteriorate are not my problem. Reclaim your skills on someone else's dime. Things are tough all over. As a potential employer, I have a need that I am looking to fill to advance my business. I am not a charity. I made no mention of race, your obsession with race makes you more single dimensional than my simplistic example of two students and a test. There are numerous examples of unfairness in life--LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Get used to it. Buckle down, take responsibility and do the best you can with what you have. Above all, quit blaming everyone else in the world for your problems.

 

[IM2]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

It sounds as if I've worked in a professional capacity, I'm so flattered lol

The very first job I ever applied for I got even though I wasn't actually old enough to hold the position. I got the highest score out of everyone who took the civil service exam so they never even noticed my age. I was in high school therefore math, reading comprehension and whatever else they tested me was the same thing I was doing everyday in school.

In a "professional" environment, or rather my professional environment, they don't give tests. They figure if Microsoft has certified you then they don't need to test you although they will still do a technical interview and/or have you white board a solution to a problem to demonstrate your coding skills.

A single test score doesn't tell the whole story and not everyone tests well. You haven't even mentioned background, experience, education whatever the candidate resume shows.

What if the person who scored 97 has no educational background beyond high school, while the one with the 75 does?

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom who hasn't worked at the tasks being tested for in a while but states she can be back up to speed very quickly and you believe her because she used to do the same type of work?

What if the person who scored 75 is a guy who recently lost his job and whose wife just had a new baby and he needs to find another one quickly while the candidate who scored the 97 is a new college graduate who has several more interviews lined up.

Over the years I have had various people tell me why they selected the other candidate for the job while indicating that I was actually the most qualified candidate - "he has a family he has to take care of and you don't" is one that particularly stuck with me as if there was no need for me to take care for myself since no one else was. Another was "oh you'll find another job easily" and in another situation a company employee threw a temper tantrum and threatened to quit unless they gave him my job. In the first two of these instances it was determined that these men "needed" the job more than I did. The last situation was simply about him taking the job away from me. And me being young and inexperienced in the first two cases, I agreed that it was most fair to give it to the person who "needed" it the most. The last instance, motivated me to obtain my first Microsoft certification as a software developer although I already had obtained MS certification as a network engineer.

I'm still interested in if you have the same feelings towards individuals taking your place who are younger and better equipped mentally/physically and are newly educated, as you do when the person who displaces you is black, because logically speaking, if the black person is younger, better equipped, more recently and better educated than you, why would you not just bow out gracefully like you would do in the first case due to age? And do you think that black person is actually still less qualified than you?

Thank you for validating my point--excuses don't get it done.

Ahh, don't be like that. You know I did no such thing but I'll accept your concession.

Not always, but often I am the most qualified candidate for the contracts I obtain and it is why I continuously study, update my skills, certifications, education and training in order to keep up with the technical requirements of companies today yet I've also had to consider who was the best candidate for our team, company or my business. It is and should always be a combination of candidate abilities & attributes, experience, training and/or education and even sometimes simply a person who needs the "opportunity" to get their foot in the door in a specific industry.

Anyway I know you have your own [negative and erroneous] thoughts about black people and specifically me but you know, you all could have done the same things I have, it probably would have gone easier for you than it did me but since you didn't try we'll never know.

My latest
View attachment 493311

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom-- Excuse--no concession. It is an excuse and you won't recognize it. We call that obtuse.

What I have been trying to get you to see is that you're engaging in one dimensional thinking. Nothing is ever as simple as "the candidate who scored 97% is the best candidate for the job".

IF the only criteria is a high score on a single exam then yes on paper the candidate who scored a 97 versus the candidate who scored a 75 is the better candidate for the job.

In real life however, there is rarely a single measure of a candidate's eligibility or suitability. It's a combination of various areas of consideration. What if the candidate who scores 97 keeps getting fired? They may know how to get the score to obtain the job but for some reason their previous employers refuse to keep them on the job. That's not someone I would consider the best candidate no matter how well they did on the exam.

Being a stay-at-home mom who of necessity has to return to the workforce but hasn't worked in a decade and whose skill set is rusty is not "an excuse" it's reality for some people. According to you, everyone who is not in the top 3 percentile doesn't deserve an opportunity, ever?

I have found over my career that if someone wants to hire you, then can find something in your resume or credentials to justify that hiring decision. If they don't want to hire you, they can find something to use as well such as "she doesn't fit well into our company culture" which I think is no longer a viable legal reason for not hiring someone because it's been used in the past to exclude minorities.

The real life scenarios (not excuses) that I have presented to you have actually occurred. My sister for example had to return to work after a decade as a stay at home mom and not only did she catch up and do well, she went back to school while working and obtained her bachelor and then her master degree. She is Ocurrently working on her PhD and has been the director of educational programs for her employers. Her daughter who just turned 21 will be a senior this fall and God willing in approximately a year from now will be graduating college with her bachelor degree.

You shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know based on the fact that they are African American especially people who have access to the types of data that I do. Without knowing anything about you at all except what you've posted, it's obvious that for whatever reasons, the progress that black people are making in America in the very least makes you uncomfortable and even perhaps resentful because there is absolutely no reason for you to continue to be as insulting as you are to people who have never caused you any harm, irrespective of whatever it is you're imagining.

I guess we should be thankful that you're retired in case you were working in an HR or hiring capacity.

Of course the score on a single test wouldn't be the only criteria--the example was for illustrative purposes. I believe I was very clear. Re: the rusty excuse, sorry, your choice to stay at home and allow your skills to deteriorate are not my problem. Reclaim your skills on someone else's dime. Things are tough all over. As a potential employer, I have a need that I am looking to fill to advance my business. I am not a charity. I made no mention of race, your obsession with race makes you more single dimensional than my simplistic example of two students and a test. There are numerous examples of unfairness in life--LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Get used to it. Buckle down, take responsibility and do the best you can with what you have. Above all, quit blaming everyone else in the world for your problems.

Please stop reciting posts full of double standards. Whites like you always look for an excuse. You seem unable to grasp the fact that whites have been allowed to do virtually everything without qualifications really being considered. You bring up that firefighter case, but had the department not had a history of racial discrimination, none of that would have been necessary.

 

[sparky]

I wonder if today's Leftists are aware of this basic point.

in that institutionalizing the issue resulted in an effect inversely proportional to it's intent, no......

~S~

 

[Mac-7]

We only have their word and testimony that all of the black firefighters failed the exam yet they destroyed their proof of that assertion.

The fly in your ointment is that the black firefighters were not suing the city for mistreatment

It was whites who passed the test and were denied promotion

You didn't read the link did you, there is no fly in the ointment

In this action Plaintiff Michael Briscoe, an African–American firefighter employed by Defendant City of New Haven (“the City”), sues the City under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, 42 U.S.C. § 2000e et seq. Plaintiff alleges that the City's selection process for promotion to the rank of Lieutenant within the Fire Department had a discriminatory disparate impact upon black firefighters. Plaintiff's Third Amended Complaint (“TAC”), the operative pleading, also asserts a pendent claim under municipal law.​

I am referring to the suit brought by the white firefighters against the city for reverse discrimination that reached the SC

The white firefighters won that case

What happened between the city and black firefighters is a separate matter

The test was too difficult for black firefighters to pass because they were unwilling to study as hard as the whites

And that was not acceptable to liberals who were expecting equal outcomes based on race

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

We only have their word and testimony that all of the black firefighters failed the exam yet they destroyed their proof of that assertion.

The fly in your ointment is that the black firefighters were not suing the city for mistreatment

It was whites who passed the test and were denied promotion

You didn't read the link did you, there is no fly in the ointment

In this action Plaintiff Michael Briscoe, an African–American firefighter employed by Defendant City of New Haven (“the City”), sues the City under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, 42 U.S.C. § 2000e et seq. Plaintiff alleges that the City's selection process for promotion to the rank of Lieutenant within the Fire Department had a discriminatory disparate impact upon black firefighters. Plaintiff's Third Amended Complaint (“TAC”), the operative pleading, also asserts a pendent claim under municipal law.​

I am referring to the suit brought by the white firefighters against the city for reverse discrimination that reached the SC

The white firefighters won that case

What happened between the city and black firefighters is a separate matter

The test was too difficult for black firefighters to pass because they were unwilling to study as hard as the whites

And that was not acceptable to liberals who were expecting equal outcomes based on race

Geez, you're as dense as the other guy is and apparently don't like to read either.

Your conclusion is erroneous as has been pointed out to you several times previously but I understand, reading and properly interpreting legal pleadings and documents is not easy and takes education, training and practice, for most people.