E.E.O.C. ??

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It's not about accepting unqualified Blacks.

wrong every time.

Sure it is

And the experience of Georgia Pacific in Louisiana or the firefighters in New Haven Con are perfect examples

The city of new haven being ruled by libs wanted to be absolutely fair about promotions in the fire dept so they hired a respected outside education company to wrote a standardized test as the basis for promotion

When the test results came back around a dozen whites and one hispanic passed the test

But no black firefighters

Bummer, huh?

Whats a bleeding heart lib who believes in EQUAL RESULTS going to do?

They decided to promote no one and the shit hit the fan

It went all the way to the supreme court where the AA crowd lost

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them. They should have been accessible for review during the discovery phase of the lawsuit but in traditional fashion, the one piece of evidence that could contradict the City's claim was destroyed.

 

[Concerned American]

It is STILL about hiring blacks, JUST because they are black.........PERIOD!

In all the areas and all the companies I've worked for since getting out of high school, it's the blacks that get hired BECAUSE they are black! It's a government standard, and if companies in this country do not have a certain percentage of blacks on the payroll, the company gets fined for not having enough blacks on the payroll!!!

I've worked with SO many blacks that just sit on their fat asses all day, PRETENDING to work, getting a FREE paycheck, while racking up benefits, and also continuing to get FULL WELFARE CHECKS!!!

The welfare commission does NOT even expect these criminals to pay back what they stole from the welfare office!! But OMG if a white person did this, they'd have them dragged off to jail!!!

I've seen it, and I've been in the middle of it. You can stick your head up your ass and deny it happens all you want...........BUT THIS IS REALITY!

My current manager where I work is a black woman, and she is SO FAR BEYOND INCOMPETENT it is sickening! We are unable to do our jobs because she fucks everything up constantly, because she has NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT THE HELL SHE IS DOING! As far as being a person goes, she's pretty nice. But there is NO WAY she is appropriate for a manager job, much less being a manager over a whole department of people!!

She got hired by NEPOTISM, not by skills, nor by professionalism!!

Are all blacks like this? No. I had a black woman as supervisor years ago, and she was freeking awesome! She KNEW her job in and out, she knew each employees job in the department in and out, she knew the business frontward and backward! You could ask her anything about the work, the company, our department, or our jobs, and she KNEW the correct answer!!

The problems is, that from what I've seen and heard over the years, 90% of blacks are lazy, liars, cheats, frauds, and a HUGE waste of company funds and resources.

But the government fines companies and businesses alike, if they do NOT keep a percentage of blacks on their payroll.

THIS is what your "Affirmative Action" is.......mafia control of employment statistics by race!!

Do you work in HR or the legal department of these companies you've referred to because I'm curious about these fines you're saying the government forces them to pay if they don't hire enough black people. Can you refer me to the government website that outlines these fines and penalties for not hiring enough black people?

It is my understanding that affirmative action was supposed to reflect the demographics of the nation. If this is true, the offerings from Hollywood over primetime seem to be in conflict. I am sure that if you check the ethnic make up of any given offering--whether news, entertainment or advertisement, the black representation in all are MUCH greater than the 13% of the population that they occupy. Where is the fairness and diversity re: white representation. Are you seriously saying the white race does not have the same rights of representation?

 

[toobfreak]

It's nearly impossible to find qualified blacks-- -- -- we can't even find qualified blacks to give open, honest and erudite opinions here on USMB!

Have you ever considered that it's not that they can't be found, it's that you are unable to recognize them when you do? Hell you've certainly proven that by your snide comment about the blacks who post here on USMB.

As a former CEO, I have no problem at all recognizing people who meet the vital qualifications to any task. As to the Blacks here, do they come with a special marking to indicate they are Black? Because other than that, I don't care what color a person is here and only know the color of a very few here because they make it a POINT to tell folks they are Black.

Of those, there is maybe one I'd consider hiring for a job. The rest make it a point of mentioning that only because they seemingly have real hang ups about their selves.

What's YOUR excuse?

 

[MadChemist]

When I was growing up in the 50's and early 60's my "Negro" friends - all males - were told by their families that they could succeed in America, but that they would have to be better than their white competitors in order to achieve success (whatever that means). And this was manifestly true. A Black person had to be better in order to get the same consideration as a white applicant.

And as with slavery, "white" people over time recognized that this situation was unfair and untenable. To the extent that the Federal Government could manage it, they tried to eradicate racial discrimination by, in order, government agencies, government contractors, and to a small extent, private companies. (This was at a time when the Courts took the Tenth Amendment seriously). Over time, this non-discrimination attitude filtered into the private sector, first will large, international companies and gradually working it way into medium-sized companies, but seriously, that's all government can do.

But the Supreme Court was impatient with this gradual progress, and began to demand (with no Constitutional basis whatsoever) a practice they referred to as "Affirmative Action." That is, non-discrimination was not sufficient, and the entities within the Supreme Court's ambit (government agencies, state schools, etc) were forced not just to stop discriminating AGAINST Black people, but to actually start discriminating IN FAVOR of Black people. Accept unqualified Blacks in order to fill arbitrary quotas, while at the same time denying vociferously that those quotas even existed.

And so it goes.

But let's take a look at something that is significant, but ignored. The name of the Federal Government agency that is in charge of seeking out and eliminating harmful discrimination is the Equal Employment OPPORTUNITY Commission. It is NOT the "Equal Employment Commission" or the "Racial Equity Commission," or the "Affirmative Action Agency."

Its fundamental ROLE is to equalize OPPORTUNITIES, and to ensure that those OPPORTUNITIES are doled out on the basis of MERIT, and not RACE, ETHNICITY, GENDER, or anything else. Merit.

I wonder if today's Leftists are aware of this basic point.

Only the white trash here read a word you said after the word “negro”

We know you can't read.

 

[Mac-7]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

 

[IM2]

Why are whites here bitching when they have been given preferential treatment from the first day of this country to this very second?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It's nearly impossible to find qualified blacks-- -- -- we can't even find qualified blacks to give open, honest and erudite opinions here on USMB!

Have you ever considered that it's not that they can't be found, it's that you are unable to recognize them when you do? Hell you've certainly proven that by your snide comment about the blacks who post here on USMB.

As a former CEO, I have no problem at all recognizing people who meet the vital qualifications to any task. As to the Blacks here, do they come with a special marking to indicate they are Black? Because other than that, I don't care what color a person is here and only know the color of a very few here because they make it a POINT to tell folks they are Black.

Of those, there is maybe one I'd consider hiring for a job. The rest make it a point of mentioning that only because they seemingly have real hang ups about their selves.

What's YOUR excuse?

My excuse for what? So you were/are a CEO that doesn't mean anything without any context.

Unless the company you work for is somewhere no black people want to live like certain Klan enclaves in Kingman, Arizona or parts of Idaho I find it unimaginable that there are no blacks anywhere who are qualified to do any of the work you have.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It is STILL about hiring blacks, JUST because they are black.........PERIOD!

In all the areas and all the companies I've worked for since getting out of high school, it's the blacks that get hired BECAUSE they are black! It's a government standard, and if companies in this country do not have a certain percentage of blacks on the payroll, the company gets fined for not having enough blacks on the payroll!!!

I've worked with SO many blacks that just sit on their fat asses all day, PRETENDING to work, getting a FREE paycheck, while racking up benefits, and also continuing to get FULL WELFARE CHECKS!!!

The welfare commission does NOT even expect these criminals to pay back what they stole from the welfare office!! But OMG if a white person did this, they'd have them dragged off to jail!!!

I've seen it, and I've been in the middle of it. You can stick your head up your ass and deny it happens all you want...........BUT THIS IS REALITY!

My current manager where I work is a black woman, and she is SO FAR BEYOND INCOMPETENT it is sickening! We are unable to do our jobs because she fucks everything up constantly, because she has NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT THE HELL SHE IS DOING! As far as being a person goes, she's pretty nice. But there is NO WAY she is appropriate for a manager job, much less being a manager over a whole department of people!!

She got hired by NEPOTISM, not by skills, nor by professionalism!!

Are all blacks like this? No. I had a black woman as supervisor years ago, and she was freeking awesome! She KNEW her job in and out, she knew each employees job in the department in and out, she knew the business frontward and backward! You could ask her anything about the work, the company, our department, or our jobs, and she KNEW the correct answer!!

The problems is, that from what I've seen and heard over the years, 90% of blacks are lazy, liars, cheats, frauds, and a HUGE waste of company funds and resources.

But the government fines companies and businesses alike, if they do NOT keep a percentage of blacks on their payroll.

THIS is what your "Affirmative Action" is.......mafia control of employment statistics by race!!

Do you work in HR or the legal department of these companies you've referred to because I'm curious about these fines you're saying the government forces them to pay if they don't hire enough black people. Can you refer me to the government website that outlines these fines and penalties for not hiring enough black people?

It is my understanding that affirmative action was supposed to reflect the demographics of the nation. If this is true, the offerings from Hollywood over primetime seem to be in conflict. I am sure that if you check the ethnic make up of any given offering--whether news, entertainment or advertisement, the black representation in all are MUCH greater than the 13% of the population that they occupy. Where is the fairness and diversity re: white representation. Are you seriously saying the white race does not have the same rights of representation?

I've always thought that affirmative action encourages the workforce to reflect the demographics of the area, not necessarily of the nation as a whole, meaning in an area like Washington DC which is majority African American (45%) compared to 42% white then the workforce would be expected to be nearly 50/50 with slightly more blacks. In an area like Seattle however, the black population is roughly 7% which I would expect to see reflected in the workplace but in many of the companies where I worked I was often the only black person on the team and I only had the opportunity to work with another black female developer once in my entire career and that was here in Seattle. These demographics are not reflective of the black population in Seattle or Washington state (3.7%), let alone the national percentage of 13%.

And of course the white population has the same rights of representation as everyone else however whites have always had the lion's share of opportunities, so where is the line between having to share (rightfully) and losing out on opportunities because now there is a new group of people with whom you have to compete when you did not have to previously?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

You can't make that claim if you have never examined the tests themselves.

As I recall, the test consisted in part of true/false and multiple choice questions (both objective with specific correct answers) while another portion consisted of subjective questions whereas the correct answer is determined by whoever grades the test.

To give you an example, I was asked on a certification exam which statement below would result in only positive numbers. Two of the viable possibilities were
x > 0 and
x >= 0

Only one of the two above is correct but in a subjective scenario the second answer can be "considered" correct because it will partially produce the correct result while not actually being the correct answer.

In an objective scenario only the 1st answer is the correct one however when I posted this dilemma to the members of USMB a significant portion of the responses indicated, erroneously I might add, that the 2nd answer was correct. Microsoft indicated that my answer of X > 0 was incorrect and that the second answer is correct which is false, however Microsoft gets the final word.

Depending on who is grading the tests, some applicants could receive partial credit for getting some of the answer right, while the person grading the exams would mark the answer incorrect if the candidate got any portion of it wrong. That is one of the reasons examining the tests would have been helpful. I don't know why the defendants were not sanctioned for the destruction of those exams.

Or maybe a better example would be a scenario just as an example, if the applicant is asked to name 5 of the exemptions that allows a government agency to deny a FOIA request - one candidates provides 4 correct and 1 incorrect answer and gets credit of .8 on the answer while another candidate gets 4 correct and 1 incorrect and the test grader marks the entire question wrong with a credit of 0 allowing the one wrong portion out of the 5 to invalidate the entire question.

See why examining the tests would have been helpful? We would have been able to see what was considered an acceptable answer and what was not and see how the answers of the different groups compared to one another.

This is a court transcript in which the firefighter exams are being discussed if interested:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123087/2208015/2219585/Exhibit E.pdf

 

[AMart]

I remember discussions as far back as the 1980's that affirmative action, discrimination against whites in hiring practices, needed to be removed. It likely never will go away.

 

[Mac-7]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

You can't make that claim if you have never examined the tests themselves.

As I recall, the test consisted in part of true/false and multiple choice questions (both objective with specific correct answers) while another portion consisted of subjective questions whereas the correct answer is determined by whoever grades the test.

To give you an example, I was asked on a certification exam which statement below would result in only positive numbers. Two of the viable possibilities were
x > 0 and
x >= 0

Only one of the two above is correct but in a subjective scenario the second answer can be "considered" correct because it will partially produce the correct result while not actually being the correct answer.

In an objective scenario only the 1st answer is the correct one however when I posted this dilemma to the members of USMB a significant portion of the responses indicated, erroneously I might add, that the 2nd answer was correct. Microsoft indicated that my answer of X > 0 was incorrect and that the second answer is correct which is false, however Microsoft gets the final word.

Depending on who is grading the tests, some applicants could receive partial credit for getting some of the answer right, while the person grading the exams would mark the answer incorrect if the candidate got any portion of it wrong. That is one of the reasons examining the tests would have been helpful. I don't know why the defendants were not sanctioned for the destruction of those exams.

Or maybe a better example would be a scenario just as an example, if the applicant is asked to name 5 of the exemptions that allows a government agency to deny a FOIA request - one candidates provides 4 correct and 1 incorrect answer and gets credit of .8 on the answer while another candidate gets 4 correct and 1 incorrect and the test grader marks the entire question wrong with a credit of 0 allowing the one wrong portion out of the 5 to invalidate the entire question.

See why examining the tests would have been helpful? We would have been able to see what was considered an acceptable answer and what was not and see how the answers of the different groups compared to one another.

This is a court transcript in which the firefighter exams are being discussed if interested:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123087/2208015/2219585/Exhibit E.pdf

Boiled down to the bone what your argument amounts to is cultural bias in the test

And I dont accept that as a valid excuse for black people who failed the test

Firefighting depends on a team effort

Everyone must understand each other and know what to expect in an emergency

There cannot be a black response mixed with a white and hispanic response

That produces chaos

 

[Concerned American]

I find it unimaginable that there are no blacks anywhere who are qualified to do any of the work you have.

I don't think anyone is saying there are no blacks available--he is saying they are not the most qualified. The education system has made it the norm that "everyone gets a trophy." That is not reality. There is a competitive world out there and you have to compete. As an senior, I can relate and that is why I retired. I found that I could no longer compete with the younger, stronger, mentally quicker and technologically better qualified employees, so rather than claim an undeserved position by using ageism, I chose to retire. That is the reality.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

You can't make that claim if you have never examined the tests themselves.

As I recall, the test consisted in part of true/false and multiple choice questions (both objective with specific correct answers) while another portion consisted of subjective questions whereas the correct answer is determined by whoever grades the test.

To give you an example, I was asked on a certification exam which statement below would result in only positive numbers. Two of the viable possibilities were
x > 0 and
x >= 0

Only one of the two above is correct but in a subjective scenario the second answer can be "considered" correct because it will partially produce the correct result while not actually being the correct answer.

In an objective scenario only the 1st answer is the correct one however when I posted this dilemma to the members of USMB a significant portion of the responses indicated, erroneously I might add, that the 2nd answer was correct. Microsoft indicated that my answer of X > 0 was incorrect and that the second answer is correct which is false, however Microsoft gets the final word.

Depending on who is grading the tests, some applicants could receive partial credit for getting some of the answer right, while the person grading the exams would mark the answer incorrect if the candidate got any portion of it wrong. That is one of the reasons examining the tests would have been helpful. I don't know why the defendants were not sanctioned for the destruction of those exams.

Or maybe a better example would be a scenario just as an example, if the applicant is asked to name 5 of the exemptions that allows a government agency to deny a FOIA request - one candidates provides 4 correct and 1 incorrect answer and gets credit of .8 on the answer while another candidate gets 4 correct and 1 incorrect and the test grader marks the entire question wrong with a credit of 0 allowing the one wrong portion out of the 5 to invalidate the entire question.

See why examining the tests would have been helpful? We would have been able to see what was considered an acceptable answer and what was not and see how the answers of the different groups compared to one another.

This is a court transcript in which the firefighter exams are being discussed if interested:
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123087/2208015/2219585/Exhibit E.pdf

Boiled down to the bone what your argument amounts to is cultural bias in the test

And I dont accept that as a valid excuse for black people who failed the test

Firefighting depends on a team effort

Everyone must understand each other and know what to expect in an emergency

There cannot be a black response mixed with a white and hispanic response

That produces chaos

And what would have been the best way to avoid that? Examining the test results which apparently no one wanted to happen.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I don't think anyone is saying there are no blacks available--he is saying they are not the most qualified

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If I'm looking for a gig, and the ad requires x number of years in a variety of software languages which I meet but also includes "prefers Microsoft certifications - blah blah blah" and if no one else has the asked for MS certification but I do, why would I not be the most qualified candidate for the position?

I've had someone tell me that I was the most qualified candidate before yet they choose someone else so if either of you have ever worked in HR I'd love to hear the reasoning behind some of this. I mean I have my own opinions on it but I'd like to hear from someone who does this for a living.

Oh, and I meant to ask you too, I understand about ageism but are any of the younger people coming into the company and displacing the older worker black? And if any of them are, do you feel differently about the natural progression of leaving a job to let the younger generation take over as you do about a workplace that is diversifying as more black Americans become more educated, better qualified and are entering fields that have traditionally been dominated by whites? And if you do feel differently, why?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

And we still don't know why none of the black firefighters didn't pass the exam because the City sealed the results and then destroyed them.

They probably prevented a lot of embarrassment for the black firefighters who did not pass the test

The test that the firemen took was available for review

Everyone who took the test either knew the answers or they didnt

And the black firemen didnt

The court documents said that this was a new test created specifically for the city to administer to the firefighters which is another reason they wanted to see the test result to try and ascertain why the black firefighters failed it. That is not unreasonable especially since there was a lawsuit.

 

[justinacolmena]

Meritocracy is only accomplished once you have submitted yourself to the cause and sell your soul and ride the wave, intelligent people get left behind because money speaks louder than words

Otherwise it's strictly DOE.
You just put in your hours with the labor union, collect your paycheck, and move on, assuming you have the correct political affiliation to join the AFL-CIO Teamsters Union. There's no bottom line. It's all employee owned.

 

[Concerned American]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

 

[MizMolly]

I find it unimaginable that there are no blacks anywhere who are qualified to do any of the work you have.

I don't think anyone is saying there are no blacks available--he is saying they are not the most qualified. The education system has made it the norm that "everyone gets a trophy." That is not reality. There is a competitive world out there and you have to compete. As an senior, I can relate and that is why I retired. I found that I could no longer compete with the younger, stronger, mentally quicker and technologically better qualified employees, so rather than claim an undeserved position by using ageism, I chose to retire. That is the reality.

Not all whites who apply are accepted either.

 

[Concerned American]

I find it unimaginable that there are no blacks anywhere who are qualified to do any of the work you have.

I don't think anyone is saying there are no blacks available--he is saying they are not the most qualified. The education system has made it the norm that "everyone gets a trophy." That is not reality. There is a competitive world out there and you have to compete. As an senior, I can relate and that is why I retired. I found that I could no longer compete with the younger, stronger, mentally quicker and technologically better qualified employees, so rather than claim an undeserved position by using ageism, I chose to retire. That is the reality.

Not all whites who apply are accepted either.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

If they're qualified which means they meet a minimum threshold, then what makes them not "most qualified" in your mind?

If you have two students who both scored over 70 (qualified) and one scored 75 and one scored 97, which candidate would you choose. You are being disingenuous. It sounds as if you have worked in a professional capacity. I wonder if your employers are getting what they are paying for if this is beyond your comprehension.

It sounds as if I've worked in a professional capacity, I'm so flattered lol

The very first job I ever applied for I got even though I wasn't actually old enough to hold the position. I got the highest score out of everyone who took the civil service exam so they never even noticed my age. I was in high school therefore math, reading comprehension and whatever else they tested me was the same thing I was doing everyday in school.

In a "professional" environment, or rather my professional environment, they don't give tests. They figure if Microsoft has certified you then they don't need to test you although they will still do a technical interview and/or have you white board a solution to a problem to demonstrate your coding skills.

A single test score doesn't tell the whole story and not everyone tests well. You haven't even mentioned background, experience, education whatever the candidate resume shows.

What if the person who scored 97 has no educational background beyond high school, while the one with the 75 does?

What if the person who scored the 75 was a stay-at-home mom who hasn't worked at the tasks being tested for in a while but states she can be back up to speed very quickly and you believe her because she used to do the same type of work?

What if the person who scored 75 is a guy who recently lost his job and whose wife just had a new baby and he needs to find another one quickly while the candidate who scored the 97 is a new college graduate who has several more interviews lined up.

Over the years I have had various people tell me why they selected the other candidate for the job while indicating that I was actually the most qualified candidate - "he has a family he has to take care of and you don't" is one that particularly stuck with me as if there was no need for me to take care for myself since no one else was. Another was "oh you'll find another job easily" and in another situation a company employee threw a temper tantrum and threatened to quit unless they gave him my job. In the first two of these instances it was determined that these men "needed" the job more than I did. The last situation was simply about him taking the job away from me. And me being young and inexperienced in the first two cases, I agreed that it was most fair to give it to the person who "needed" it the most. The last instance, motivated me to obtain my first Microsoft certification as a software developer although I already had obtained MS certification as a network engineer.

I'm still interested in if you have the same feelings towards individuals taking your place who are younger and better equipped mentally/physically and are newly educated, as you do when the person who displaces you is black, because logically speaking, if the black person is younger, better equipped, more recently and better educated than you, why would you not just bow out gracefully like you would do in the first case due to age? And do you think that black person is actually still less qualified than you?

Lastly, just for the record, there are always certain white people bitching about how much money I make, to the point where they do exactly what you just did, imply that I'm not worth what I earn and "if she's sooooo qualified, why is she on the phone talking to Microsoft and asking them what to do?" (hint: when you pay a company for it's software you're not paying for the disk it comes on or the "free" download which is how many of them deliver it these days)