Does a LGBT person have to chose between being LGBT and being Christian?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

Why would they have to choose? Do adulterous liars like the president have to choose? Do people who are envious of their neighbor's wealth have to choose? Do people who eat shellfish and wear soldiers' buttons have to choose?

 

[DOTR]

hope not , i prefer that homosexuals are guilt ridden and consumed with dread and guilt BRook .

Everyone who is aware of sin and believes in God has some awareness of guilt and dread, homosexuals aren't the only one.

.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge"
Proverbs

 

[deanrd]

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

Again, when the Catholic Church stops molesting little boys, they can lecture to us about what is sinful. We might not even snicker when they do.

The reality is, of course, is that we all ignore rules that are in the Bible, even the most devout Christians. Whole bunch of people are going to be working today, even though the Bible Tells them not to.

More to the point, the Bible also endorses slavery, which no one today thinks is still a good thing. God wasn't changing his mind, so we changed ours.

So do you have any arguments against homosexuality that don't include 'God says it's bad" and "I think it's icky."?

It’s not the church, it’s some people who work there.

It’s the same argument Republicans have with guns.

It’s not the guns. It’s the crazies the Republican support who use them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.Edit

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

The Bible directs men to not "spill" their seed so, according to The Bible masturbation is a sin.

Jus' sayin' ..........

If you jack off then according to Jesus you are going to Hell; oops ...........

I respectfully disagree.

Most people who claim that masturbation is a Biblical sin rely on a few verses in the Book of Genesis. Here is what the Bible says:

“And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also” (Genesis 38:7-10, KJV).

While some Bible readers believe the quoted verses prove masturbation is a deadly sin, others do not. It has been my experience that most Christians believe that Onan was killed solely because he refused to impregnate his dead brothers wife, not because his sperm was “wasted.” Here is a fairly good description on how most Christians interpret the quoted verses:

“Why did God kill Onan for spilling his seed on the ground? The reason God did this is not because Onan wasted his seed on the ground, but because Onan refused to perform his familial duties of producing offspring for his brother's. This was a great offense at the time. Now, we must realize that the culture was very different than ours is today. In that culture, when a man died and left no children, the next of kin was sometimes obligated to "go in to" the wife and produce children. These children were then considered to be the descendants of the original late husband and would be raised as such. This way, the offspring would be able to take care of the mother, provide more people for the community, and thereby raise their own children, continuing the name of that family. Onan knew this and refused to take part in furthering the honor and name of the brother's wife and thereby also risking provision for her in the future. To this, God was very displeased and took Onan's life.”

Why did God kill a man for spilling his seed on the ground? | CARM.org

This interpretation is much more reasonable considering that it is physically impossible for a normal healthy man to waste his seed. Assuming that Onan was a typical male, his sperm is constantly replenished (1,500 per second) as seed is used and old unused seed dies in the body. A single ejaculation does not “drain the bank.” Many men have been know to have multiple ejaculations during a single sexual encounter and many more have been able to have sex (including ejaculations) more than once in a single day. I'm an old man now (79) and I can only say, ah yes, I remember it well.

CONCLUSION: There is nothing in the Bible that clearly states masturbation is a sin. Geneses 38:7-10 does not condemn masturbation. Onan was killed solely because he would not impregnate his deceased brother's childless wife as the law required.

Note: There are also verses in Leviticus 15 which is sometimes, though rarely, used to prove masturbation is a sin (although not a serious one). I have avoided discussing this Book because the it would take too much of my time and time is a commodity that is precious at my age. Almost all my commentary on the USMB about the Bible has been cut-and-paste from articles I have written over the years. I had not previously written about Leviticus 15 in detail and being a very poor typist I do not want to do it now. I might change my mind if others make this Book an issue.

Hey, wow, a tangent!

Pretty sure the thread is not about "is masturbation a sin or not?" Feel free to go start one like that, if you have a burning desire to drivel on about it.

Black can correct me if he wishes, but I believe the actual point of this thread is, "Being expected to resist and abstain from desires is common to Christianity, so why not homosexuality?"

 

[BookShaka]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

I’m bisexual and no one is forcing me to choose... perhaps that’s bc I keep it to myself and I’m not Catholic so I’m not made to confess my sins.

I truly can’t help it that I’m attracted to both sexes. I’m married and don’t act on it and that is all that should matter. I guess I’ll learn when I die whether or not God forgives me.

 

[BookShaka]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

The Bible directs men to not "spill" their seed so, according to The Bible masturbation is a sin.

Jus' sayin' ..........

If you jack off then according to Jesus you are going to Hell; oops ...........

That's right, masturbation is a sin. I already said it, did you bother to read the OP?

Does that mean it’s a sin for women to masturbate as well, who have no seed to spill? Technically I guess you could say menstruation is the “spilling of seed” as it’s the result of an unfertilized egg?

 

[BookShaka]

Yes; everyone that chokes the chicken is going to Hell. I read that.

Not everyone who sins goes to hell. That was YOU who said that, and it was a stupid thing to say.

Perhaps you are not equipped mentally to have a serious discussion.

well, it is also stupid for an all knowing being to create His supposed most loved creation, all while He knows that 'most' loved of all His creation will a majority burn in Hell forever. not a great concept, IMO.

You keep saying everyone who sins will go to hell. I never said that, that is you who is saying it. It's obvious you don't have any intention of having a good faith discussion.

It’s obvious he doesn’t understand Christianity.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

Why would they have to choose? Do adulterous liars like the president have to choose? Do people who are envious of their neighbor's wealth have to choose? Do people who eat shellfish and wear soldiers' buttons have to choose?

In order: Yes, yes, and quit trying to impose your ignorance of Christian teachings onto us.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

I’m bisexual and no one is forcing me to choose... perhaps that’s bc I keep it to myself and I’m not Catholic so I’m not made to confess my sins.

I truly can’t help it that I’m attracted to both sexes. I’m married and don’t act on it and that is all that should matter. I guess I’ll learn when I die whether or not God forgives me.

People "can't help" a lot of things. What's your point?

 

[BookShaka]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

I’m bisexual and no one is forcing me to choose... perhaps that’s bc I keep it to myself and I’m not Catholic so I’m not made to confess my sins.

I truly can’t help it that I’m attracted to both sexes. I’m married and don’t act on it and that is all that should matter. I guess I’ll learn when I die whether or not God forgives me.

People "can't help" a lot of things. What's your point?

My point is God made me as I am. What’s your point?

 

[Meriweather]

It’s obvious he doesn’t understand Christianity.

Or Judaism. Onan's sin was to defiantly deny Tamar offspring who would care for her as she aged. In other words, this child's duty would be to his mother and her family--he would have no obligation at all to be duty bound to Onan. In other words, in the future nothing could stop this child from becoming a rival of his natural father, since the child would be considered Er's heir.

 

[Meriweather]

My point is God made me as I am. What’s your point?

Does God create who we become, or is that more under individual will and control?

 

[The Professor]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.Edit

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

The Bible directs men to not "spill" their seed so, according to The Bible masturbation is a sin.

Jus' sayin' ..........

If you jack off then according to Jesus you are going to Hell; oops ...........

I respectfully disagree.

Most people who claim that masturbation is a Biblical sin rely on a few verses in the Book of Genesis. Here is what the Bible says:

“And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also” (Genesis 38:7-10, KJV).

While some Bible readers believe the quoted verses prove masturbation is a deadly sin, others do not. It has been my experience that most Christians believe that Onan was killed solely because he refused to impregnate his dead brothers wife, not because his sperm was “wasted.” Here is a fairly good description on how most Christians interpret the quoted verses:

“Why did God kill Onan for spilling his seed on the ground? The reason God did this is not because Onan wasted his seed on the ground, but because Onan refused to perform his familial duties of producing offspring for his brother's. This was a great offense at the time. Now, we must realize that the culture was very different than ours is today. In that culture, when a man died and left no children, the next of kin was sometimes obligated to "go in to" the wife and produce children. These children were then considered to be the descendants of the original late husband and would be raised as such. This way, the offspring would be able to take care of the mother, provide more people for the community, and thereby raise their own children, continuing the name of that family. Onan knew this and refused to take part in furthering the honor and name of the brother's wife and thereby also risking provision for her in the future. To this, God was very displeased and took Onan's life.”

Why did God kill a man for spilling his seed on the ground? | CARM.org

This interpretation is much more reasonable considering that it is physically impossible for a normal healthy man to waste his seed. Assuming that Onan was a typical male, his sperm is constantly replenished (1,500 per second) as seed is used and old unused seed dies in the body. A single ejaculation does not “drain the bank.” Many men have been know to have multiple ejaculations during a single sexual encounter and many more have been able to have sex (including ejaculations) more than once in a single day. I'm an old man now (79) and I can only say, ah yes, I remember it well.

CONCLUSION: There is nothing in the Bible that clearly states masturbation is a sin. Geneses 38:7-10 does not condemn masturbation. Onan was killed solely because he would not impregnate his deceased brother's childless wife as the law required.

Note: There are also verses in Leviticus 15 which is sometimes, though rarely, used to prove masturbation is a sin (although not a serious one). I have avoided discussing this Book because the it would take too much of my time and time is a commodity that is precious at my age. Almost all my commentary on the USMB about the Bible has been cut-and-paste from articles I have written over the years. I had not previously written about Leviticus 15 in detail and being a very poor typist I do not want to do it now. I might change my mind if others make this Book an issue.

Hey, wow, a tangent!

Pretty sure the thread is not about "is masturbation a sin or not?" Feel free to go start one like that, if you have a burning desire to drivel on about it.

Black can correct me if he wishes, but I believe the actual point of this thread is, "Being expected to resist and abstain from desires is common to Christianity, so why not homosexuality?"

To a person of at least average intelligence the thread went in that direction. My response was to a very specific post dealing with masturbation. Sadly, the subject matter of my response went way over your head. Your reading and cognitive abilities are sorely lacking.

You have the last word. I have no time to waste on fools like you.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

I’m bisexual and no one is forcing me to choose... perhaps that’s bc I keep it to myself and I’m not Catholic so I’m not made to confess my sins.

I truly can’t help it that I’m attracted to both sexes. I’m married and don’t act on it and that is all that should matter. I guess I’ll learn when I die whether or not God forgives me.

People "can't help" a lot of things. What's your point?

My point is God made me as I am. What’s your point?

That pedophiles make the same point. So do people with sex addictions and a variety of mental problems. In fact, every human being on the planet who has an inclination to do things they should not do - in other words, every human being on the planet - can rightly say that God made them that way. That does not absolve us from the responsibility to follow God's law when it contradicts our urges. In fact, if God's law us did NOT contradict our urges, there would be no reason for Him to give us His law in the first place.

In a world where every human who lives and ever has lived has been flawed and in need of improvement, I remain unimpressed by "I was born this way, so it must be okay."

 

[bodecea]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

Questioning?

 

[bodecea]

hope not , i prefer that homosexuals are guilt ridden and consumed with dread and guilt BRook .

Everyone who is aware of sin and believes in God has some awareness of guilt and dread, homosexuals aren't the only one.

But there is no other group of sinners who is asking the church to accept not only them, but the sins they commit as well.

I don't think homosexuals have a right to demand that the church accept their sin.

Divorced sinners don't ask the church to accept them and the fact they are divorced?

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's what I want to know.

My own religion, Catholicism, teaches that all sexual relations, except between a man and a woman who are married, not using birth control, is sinful.

So MOST sexual stuff, including masturbation and oral sex, is sinful.

That obviously includes homosexuality as well.

I would assume most other Christian denominations have similar rules.

So a Christian church that ACCEPTS homosexuals and says YOU DON"T HAVE TO CHANGE, is not being truthful to Christian teachings.Edit

However, the state of being homosexual is not sinful, it is only sinful to ACT ON IT.

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuals are called to be abstinent.

Is that a teaching that any homosexual can accept?

The Bible directs men to not "spill" their seed so, according to The Bible masturbation is a sin.

Jus' sayin' ..........

If you jack off then according to Jesus you are going to Hell; oops ...........

I respectfully disagree.

Most people who claim that masturbation is a Biblical sin rely on a few verses in the Book of Genesis. Here is what the Bible says:

“And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also” (Genesis 38:7-10, KJV).

While some Bible readers believe the quoted verses prove masturbation is a deadly sin, others do not. It has been my experience that most Christians believe that Onan was killed solely because he refused to impregnate his dead brothers wife, not because his sperm was “wasted.” Here is a fairly good description on how most Christians interpret the quoted verses:

“Why did God kill Onan for spilling his seed on the ground? The reason God did this is not because Onan wasted his seed on the ground, but because Onan refused to perform his familial duties of producing offspring for his brother's. This was a great offense at the time. Now, we must realize that the culture was very different than ours is today. In that culture, when a man died and left no children, the next of kin was sometimes obligated to "go in to" the wife and produce children. These children were then considered to be the descendants of the original late husband and would be raised as such. This way, the offspring would be able to take care of the mother, provide more people for the community, and thereby raise their own children, continuing the name of that family. Onan knew this and refused to take part in furthering the honor and name of the brother's wife and thereby also risking provision for her in the future. To this, God was very displeased and took Onan's life.”

Why did God kill a man for spilling his seed on the ground? | CARM.org

This interpretation is much more reasonable considering that it is physically impossible for a normal healthy man to waste his seed. Assuming that Onan was a typical male, his sperm is constantly replenished (1,500 per second) as seed is used and old unused seed dies in the body. A single ejaculation does not “drain the bank.” Many men have been know to have multiple ejaculations during a single sexual encounter and many more have been able to have sex (including ejaculations) more than once in a single day. I'm an old man now (79) and I can only say, ah yes, I remember it well.

CONCLUSION: There is nothing in the Bible that clearly states masturbation is a sin. Geneses 38:7-10 does not condemn masturbation. Onan was killed solely because he would not impregnate his deceased brother's childless wife as the law required.

Note: There are also verses in Leviticus 15 which is sometimes, though rarely, used to prove masturbation is a sin (although not a serious one). I have avoided discussing this Book because the it would take too much of my time and time is a commodity that is precious at my age. Almost all my commentary on the USMB about the Bible has been cut-and-paste from articles I have written over the years. I had not previously written about Leviticus 15 in detail and being a very poor typist I do not want to do it now. I might change my mind if others make this Book an issue.

Hey, wow, a tangent!

Pretty sure the thread is not about "is masturbation a sin or not?" Feel free to go start one like that, if you have a burning desire to drivel on about it.

Black can correct me if he wishes, but I believe the actual point of this thread is, "Being expected to resist and abstain from desires is common to Christianity, so why not homosexuality?"

To a person of at least average intelligence the thread went in that direction. My response was to a very specific post dealing with masturbation. Sadly, the subject matter of my response went way over your head. Your reading and cognitive abilities are sorely lacking.

You have the last word. I have no time to waste on fools like you.

Maybe that's the problem here. You are - putatively - of average intelligence; I am above-average. Which is why I was able to tell that the thread did NOT go in the direction of "Is masturbation a sin or not? Let's talk endlessly about wanking with no reference to the topic stated in the title."

Black stated that most sexual behavior would be sinful in his religion. He listed a couple of examples for reference. It all aimed merely at explaining the primary point of the thread, which is that humans are expected to suppress a variety of urges in order to comply with God's instructions; at no point did he say, "Let's talk about whether or not my religion is right about these things!"

Which makes your dissertation on "No, choking my chicken is just fine!" a tangent. Feel free to look up "tangent" if it confuses you. Your reading comprehension in general appears to be . . . well, average.

Oh, and thank you for "graciously" declining to give a reply you didn't have because you didn't want to just admit you were wrong and derailing the thread.

 

[deanrd]

Or being alive.

We know what Republicans want to do to gays.

 

[danielpalos]

not with me; lesbians can enjoy, "biblical morality" with me.

 

[caddo kid]

Or being alive.

We know what Republicans want to do to gays.

Mike Pence wants to hang all the gays.