Do you believe in evolution?

[Ravi]

Here you go, Mo...maybe this will help you out. And yes, this makes more sense in my view than God micromanaging everything.


7. Is evolution a random process?

Evolution is not a random process. The genetic variation on which natural selection acts may occur randomly, but natural selection itself is not random at all. The survival and reproductive success of an individual is directly related to the ways its inherited traits function in the context of its local environment. Whether or not an individual survives and reproduces depends on whether it has genes that produce traits that are well adapted to its environment. Evolution: Frequently Asked Questions

 

[KittenKoder]

You have it all wrong KK, I once believed that evolution was a fact. I am a product of the public school system. My teachers told me evolution was a fact, and I believed them. They also told me Global warming was a fact, and I believed that too.
Now I believe neither, not out of fear or because of my religious beliefs, but because they are not fact.

So here's what I want you to do. Take your two 'fear' posts, replace the evolution diatribe with a global warming diatribe, put "posted by Old Rocks" at the top and slip them in the environment forum.

Now read them and tell me if you're convinced.

Either you're really young and they just started teaching it again, or really old and learned it back when they really didn't have the information. Not to mention that schools still don't have much information on anything really, evolutionary science could fill a whole library. Global Warming is a hoax, and this does kinda answer to which previous category you belong to. When I went to school evolution was a "touch subject" in biology, they skimmed a few key points and that was about it. As for Global Warming, they did not mention it in school except the CFC thing, which was chemistry.

Also, the only thing there is to gain from defending Evolutionary science is the vaccines, medicines, and further scientific advances we will gain from a better understanding. As I said, if you don't want to accept it, then stop using all those vaccines, medicines, and don't eat any of the grocery store food, because without evolutionary science none of that would exist (well, the food would just be rotten).

 

[Ravi]

I've got to call BS on global warming being taught as fact in public school.

 

[code1211]

There are LOTS of scientific reasons to oppose the claim evolution has created different mammal species from a single species. It remains a theory that is not proven in any way that is tangible.

Once again, did we evolve from a pig like creature? A mouse like creature? Both of those animals have a hell of a lot of common DNA with us.

Further there is no evidence or even truly working theory on HOW life began on Earth.

But both are taught in science class as if true.

We know for sure and for certain that there have been animals alive in the past that are not alive today. Their abilities no longer matched their environment, so they perished. There are literally millions of animals that fall into this category.

Today, we see the result of changes in species on a daily basis. Horse racing is based on genetic selection. Dog shows with all of those silly and useless breeds. Do you wonder why they call them breeds? The Swine Flu Virus. Any aggressive Strep infection. All show the evidence of evelution and some show it from generation to generation.

Most mosquitos are killed by DDT. Some are not affected by it. Evolution.

If you LOOK for evidence of evolution, it's difficult to get through a day without finding it.

 

[KittenKoder]

I've got to call BS on global warming being taught as fact in public school.

I didn't think they ever did. I can only speak for the time I went to school and ... well nothing. As I said, the closest was the "why they believe CFCs are bad" in chem.

 

[KittenKoder]

Here, first grade level of evolution:
Resources by Subject - Biological Sciences - The University of Auckland Library

 

[code1211]

You have it all wrong KK, I once believed that evolution was a fact. I am a product of the public school system. My teachers told me evolution was a fact, and I believed them. They also told me Global warming was a fact, and I believed that too.
Now I believe neither, not out of fear or because of my religious beliefs, but because they are not fact.

So here's what I want you to do. Take your two 'fear' posts, replace the evolution diatribe with a global warming diatribe, put "posted by Old Rocks" at the top and slip them in the environment forum.

Now read them and tell me if you're convinced.

I can't agree with you on evolution. I can agree with you on the cause of Global Warming if you are citing CO2 as the main or only cause. Both are for the same reason: outcome.

When the rise and fall of temperature is predicted by the rise and fall of CO2, I will agree with Old Rocks on Climate Change and its causes.

Does evolution affect Homosapien. Look at the the categories of Man: White, Black Yellow, Red and within those categories, various shades. George Carlin, in very crude language, exhorts us to "know" each other so we will all turn brown and then there will be no more Race Problems. All of us turning brown would be Evolution.

Obviously, the races of Homosapien are the result of the changes in the overall race to adapt to their particular geographic environment. The individual choices of each of us sometime result in Love overtaking members of different race categories and suddenly they have children that are not purely Swedich or Ethiopian but a mixture of the two. This is Evolution.

Moving away from skin color to height, or build or immune system changes, other changes are constantly going on. When Gramma looks at Grandson and says, "He has his Father's eyes." What is she saying? She is saying that the baby has inherited a trait from his father. That's Evolution.

One joke about evolution is that if your parents had no children, you probably won't have any either.

Our society softens the effect of evolution on the survivability of the individual in terms of running fast or shooting straight, but in terms of immune system strength, it's still there. Some plague that evolves to a strain that is immune to any antibiotic will mow down our race like the Grim Reaper, but there will be some who survive who are immune and the race will begin to build again. Or there will be no one and the race will perish.

Either of these outcomes, also, is Evolution.

 

[Missourian]

I have replies for all of you, just not the time required to post them. Got work to do today. I'll be back on tonight.

 

[Coyote]

You have it all wrong KK, I once believed that evolution was a fact. I am a product of the public school system. My teachers told me evolution was a fact, and I believed them. They also told me Global warming was a fact, and I believed that too.
Now I believe neither, not out of fear or because of my religious beliefs, but because they are not fact.

So here's what I want you to do. Take your two 'fear' posts, replace the evolution diatribe with a global warming diatribe, put "posted by Old Rocks" at the top and slip them in the environment forum.

Now read them and tell me if you're convinced.

Evolution is a fact. There is no doubt. The only uncertainty is in the details and pathways.

Global warming I'll agree is as yet uncertain though evidence supports the contention that human activity does have some impact on climate. I had no idea it was taught in schools since it's only been an issue within the last...decade? I thought.

 

[007]

Evolution is a fact. There is no doubt.

Gee... that's quite a revelation. Have you announced that to the scientific community yet, so they can no longer call it a theory?

 

[Coyote]

Evolution is a fact. There is no doubt.

Gee... that's quite a revelation. Have you announced that to the scientific community yet, so they can no longer call it a theory?

Gee...do you know the difference between the definition of a "theory" and the definition of a "scientific theory"?

Or do you need the full explanation?

Hint: start with the Fallacy of Ambiguity

 

[KittenKoder]

Evolution is a fact. There is no doubt.

Gee... that's quite a revelation. Have you announced that to the scientific community yet, so they can no longer call it a theory?

There's the part many people do not realize, evolution itself is fact, and evolutionary science is not only proven but an extremely useful science. There is one part that is theory, the evolutionary paths of some species (most we know to be fact), one of which is humanity. When talking about the "theory of evolution" they are talking about the evolution of humans specifically. Calling it the "theory of evolution" was originally used as a shorthand, but people latched onto it and it became a catch phrase. In reality when a scientist says that they mean "theory of the evolution of humanity."

But the original meaning is one of those things which are lost do to a lack of use and understanding.

 

[Missourian]

Ok, I finally have a few minutes to post, and I forgot most to the stuff I had to say.

Ravi...even if natural selection perpetuation the helpful mutations...the mutations are still absolutely 100% random. The probability of the walnut tree stumbling randomly on it's toxin are astronomical. and those probabilities must are squared with the tiger moth, he got a poison and an ultrasonic warning. All pure chance?

Code...you're examples are variation within a species. I don't deny that there is variation within a species.

That's all I remember.

 

[007]

Evolution is a fact. There is no doubt.

Gee... that's quite a revelation. Have you announced that to the scientific community yet, so they can no longer call it a theory?

There's the part many people do not realize, evolution itself is fact, and evolutionary science is not only proven but an extremely useful science. There is one part that is theory, the evolutionary paths of some species (most we know to be fact), one of which is humanity. When talking about the "theory of evolution" they are talking about the evolution of humans specifically. Calling it the "theory of evolution" was originally used as a shorthand, but people latched onto it and it became a catch phrase. In reality when a scientist says that they mean "theory of the evolution of humanity."

But the original meaning is one of those things which are lost do to a lack of use and understanding.

I was speaking of the theory of human evolution. A person can parse words about it day in and day out, but at the end of the day it still remains a theory. It hasn't been proven. Otherwise people would post that proof instead of some long line of rhetoric. When and if it's ever proven, I'll more than willingly accept it. I'll even be amazed, because I don't believe it.

 

[Missourian]

Something did occur to me today. In a billion years, all the higher orders of animals all have two eyes, a nose/nostrils and a mouth. Why have those things never mutated?

That's all I have time for. I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[KittenKoder]

Gee... that's quite a revelation. Have you announced that to the scientific community yet, so they can no longer call it a theory?

There's the part many people do not realize, evolution itself is fact, and evolutionary science is not only proven but an extremely useful science. There is one part that is theory, the evolutionary paths of some species (most we know to be fact), one of which is humanity. When talking about the "theory of evolution" they are talking about the evolution of humans specifically. Calling it the "theory of evolution" was originally used as a shorthand, but people latched onto it and it became a catch phrase. In reality when a scientist says that they mean "theory of the evolution of humanity."

But the original meaning is one of those things which are lost do to a lack of use and understanding.

I was speaking of the theory of human evolution. A person can parse words about it day in and day out, but at the end of the day it still remains a theory. It hasn't been proven. Otherwise people would post that proof instead of some long line of rhetoric. When and if it's ever proven, I'll more than willingly accept it. I'll even be amazed, because I don't believe it.

Hmm .. if you read my whole post you'll realize I was just clarifying for those who may not realize it, though i admit I didn't think you had known the difference. As long as you understand the difference between evolution science and the theory of human evolution then we are in agreement.

 

[KittenKoder]

Something did occur to me today. In a billion years, all the higher orders of animals all have two eyes, a nose/nostrils and a mouth. Why have those things never mutated?

That's all I have time for. I'll be back tomorrow.

Because on our planet those traits have proven to be the most successful. There were other combinations but they have always failed, with a few exceptions, one being spiders which have eye clusters, and most have four, some have six clusters. However to see depth well, two eyes are best, more would require too much brain matter to handle and one would have no depth perception for hunting/gathering. With the spider they see very differently and actually rely on vibration for hunting (most species anyway). So your attempt at a point there is another failure.

 

[wizard61]

Science has found at least 17 dimensions, many more than the 3 or 4 we can perceive. Consider quantum physics or dark matter or whatever... the Bible spoke to people in words they could understand. It still does. I mean, Schrödinger's cat is alive and dead... which to me suggests we are using very limited senses & trying to understand some extremely complicated things. So the Bible is not literal, which works for me.

One of my extra senses tells me there is a palpable good & also a tangible evil. I can feel both. Maybe I am wrong, and maybe red is green and up is really down -- who wants to play subjective/objective word games that go nowhere?

I see no contradiction between Genesis & Evolution. I feel a bit sorry for those who do. Evolution is a fine "general" concept which has a long way to go... evolution the theory evolves everyday.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You have it all wrong KK, I once believed that evolution was a fact. I am a product of the public school system. My teachers told me evolution was a fact, and I believed them. They also told me Global warming was a fact, and I believed that too.
Now I believe neither, not out of fear or because of my religious beliefs, but because they are not fact.

So here's what I want you to do. Take your two 'fear' posts, replace the evolution diatribe with a global warming diatribe, put "posted by Old Rocks" at the top and slip them in the environment forum.

Now read them and tell me if you're convinced.

Either you're really young and they just started teaching it again, or really old and learned it back when they really didn't have the information. Not to mention that schools still don't have much information on anything really, evolutionary science could fill a whole library. Global Warming is a hoax, and this does kinda answer to which previous category you belong to. When I went to school evolution was a "touch subject" in biology, they skimmed a few key points and that was about it. As for Global Warming, they did not mention it in school except the CFC thing, which was chemistry.

Also, the only thing there is to gain from defending Evolutionary science is the vaccines, medicines, and further scientific advances we will gain from a better understanding. As I said, if you don't want to accept it, then stop using all those vaccines, medicines, and don't eat any of the grocery store food, because without evolutionary science none of that would exist (well, the food would just be rotten).

There ya go trying to defend your ignorance by claiming something else. Or by diverting the discussion. It is not a MINOR point that there is no evidence of Mammals evolving from one species into 2 entirely different species. And it is not a minor point that mammals are not plants , are not single cell life, are not viruses and are not insects.

Evolution is proven in some fields and completely unproven in others. Any real scientist can and does accept that simple FACT. Within a species of Mammals evolution is proven. There is NO evidence what so ever that one species of mammals evolved into two other entirely different species. NONE AT ALL.


You can splice plants, remove part of one plant and attach it to another and make a new species of plant. Try that with a mammal. It won't work. You can NOT compare how plants operate with how mammals operate. They are NOT the same.

You can completely believe in evolution and manipulation of virus and disease and vaccines without having to also believe man evolved from an APE LIKE CREATURE. One is not needed for the other.

I REALLY want to know what you are so TERRIBLY afraid of that you have to resort to such bullshit?

 

[mightypeon]

Ok, I finally have a few minutes to post, and I forgot most to the stuff I had to say.

Ravi...even if natural selection perpetuation the helpful mutations...the mutations are still absolutely 100% random. The probability of the walnut tree stumbling randomly on it's toxin are astronomical. and those probabilities must are squared with the tiger moth, he got a poison and an ultrasonic warning. All pure chance?

Code...you're examples are variation within a species. I don't deny that there is variation within a species.

That's all I remember.

Actually they arent, for each toxine you usually have a non toxin that is a closely related.
A number of toxins originated from enzymes used to degrade the intracellular barriers of cell organells. Going from degrading an intracellular barrier of a Mitchondria to beeing able to degrade the intracellular barrier of a pathogen (a number of pathogenic bacteria work inside cells) is not that big of a stretch. Both enzymes have the same job, on a very closely related membrane.
To make the hole thing into an extracellular toxin, you only need the enzyme to have a secretion mechanism (if the enzyme is small that isnt that hard) and be stable under different conditions.

The way to a toxin starts on something already usefull, traverse some intermediates that at least arent harmfull and ends up with a beneficial improvement.

Other toxins like the very potent Gramicidin derived from transport proteins. These proteins drilled holes into the cells own cell wall to faciliate interaction with the outside. Some confirmational changes were enough to enable the cell of using these Proteins to drill holes in other cells, making them leak their valuable stuff out and enrich the gramicidine producing cell in the process.