Do only Christians go to heaven?

[Mudda]

He (god) is a sovereign being, unaccountable to mans' demands.

And you know that how?

If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab. Thus, He is free to act in one circumstance and not in another, though we think they are the same.

So that fact that your invisible being can't be replicated in a lab is proof that it exists? Your logic is so weak that I'm afraid for your sanity.

I'm not offering you proof in that statement. Perhaps that's why you're confused. Here's a question for you. Exactly what proof of God's existence would you accept? Be as specific as possible.

Yes, you are offering proof "If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab" and you're saying that your invisible being can't be replicated so therefore it exists with its own free will. Which makes no sense at all. It actually shows the reverse to be truer to sane people.
As for what proof I'd accept personally? Something tangible that proves a god. I'm agnostic, I see no real proof so far for a god but will gladly change my mind if irrefutable proof ever arises. Can't be any fairer than that.

 

[hadit]

hadit , Which God do you believe in, and why?

"Which God"? That's very interesting. I assume you mean to ask if I can put a name to God? Please elaborate.

I believe in God because I have seen Him move and work in my own life and in the lives of the people closest to me. I have seen lives changed.

Yes please. Name Him.

I don't like to assume that by 'God' you mean The God of Abraham, as described in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an unless specified, even though that's exactly Who most Americans are referring to when they use the term 'God'.

I'm also curious as to why you believe in the God that holds your faith.

Please, can you name your God and tell me why you chose Him / Her / It as your God?

Yes, the God of Abraham. The Hebrews refer to Him as YHWH, a name that can't be pronounced. I call Him by the English words God, Lord, or Father, and I have faith in Him because He has moved and worked in my own life and in the lives of those I love.

 

[hadit]

He (god) is a sovereign being, unaccountable to mans' demands.

And you know that how?

If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab. Thus, He is free to act in one circumstance and not in another, though we think they are the same.

So that fact that your invisible being can't be replicated in a lab is proof that it exists? Your logic is so weak that I'm afraid for your sanity.

I'm not offering you proof in that statement. Perhaps that's why you're confused. Here's a question for you. Exactly what proof of God's existence would you accept? Be as specific as possible.

Yes, you are offering proof "If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab" and you're saying that your invisible being can't be replicated so therefore it exists with its own free will. Which makes no sense at all. It actually shows the reverse to be truer to sane people.

I think I see where you're confused. I don't claim as proof of God's existence the fact that He can't be replicated in the lab. I'm simply stating that God, as a superior, sovereign being who is not restrained by the physical laws of the universe, does not have to to be proven by scientific testing in order to exist.

As for what proof I'd accept personally? Something tangible that proves a god. I'm agnostic, I see no real proof so far for a god but will gladly change my mind if irrefutable proof ever arises. Can't be any fairer than that.

Okay, let's use an example. Let's say you (like most of us) don't believe in UFO's and view those who do as crackpots. If you were standing in a field with no one else around and a UFO landed in front of you, a little green man came out, waved at you, then took off leaving no trace that it ever was there, would you become a UFO believer or would you doubt your own senses until they could be proven tangibly? IOW, would you insist that you actually saw a UFO or would you refuse to believe it until a scientist told you that you did? At what point would you accept something that can't be proven?

 

[hadit]

why are you in the religion section if you dont believe in heaven or god

Typical of the religious

No dissenting viewpoints allowed

That was the reason at 8 I stopped going church and CCD

Some crotchety old priest grabbed me and yelled in my face, "You are not here to ask questions. You are here to listen and believe!"

nice to see that attitude still pervades the religious communities

I was 59 and had just retired after 41 years on the job when I let my family know that not only did I not believe it I never had believed it. I lived the church life for 35 years and I used to look at others in the sanctuary on Sunday mornings and wonder if they doubted too.

There are many in church who will be very surprised to find out it did them no good when God says, "I never knew you".

thats correct man

Except that it won't be God saying it. According to the story it will be Jesus who says this.

I see what you're doing. They are one and the same.

 

[hobelim]

Define "heard Him".

According to scripture God speaks to a person directly in dreams and visions through images and words.

Jesus said that God was with him always and told him exactly what to say to people and exactly how to say it.


God is neither vague or a quiet whisper.


If you heard from God you would have seen something first that all prophets see first before heating a word from God, you would not be asking anyone to define what they mean by "heard Him".

 

[hadit]

Define "heard Him".

According to scripture God speaks to a person directly in dreams and visions through images and words.

Jesus said that God was with him always and told him exactly what to say to people and exactly how to say it.


God is neither vague or a quiet whisper.


If you heard from God you would have seen something first that all prophets see first before heating a word from God, you would not be asking anyone to define what they mean by "heard Him".

I don't claim to be a prophet, and it is legitimate to ask what someone means when they talk about hearing from God, because God is not bound to any one means of communication.

 

[hobelim]

Typical of the religious

No dissenting viewpoints allowed

That was the reason at 8 I stopped going church and CCD

Some crotchety old priest grabbed me and yelled in my face, "You are not here to ask questions. You are here to listen and believe!"

nice to see that attitude still pervades the religious communities

I was 59 and had just retired after 41 years on the job when I let my family know that not only did I not believe it I never had believed it. I lived the church life for 35 years and I used to look at others in the sanctuary on Sunday mornings and wonder if they doubted too.

There are many in church who will be very surprised to find out it did them no good when God says, "I never knew you".

thats correct man

Except that it won't be God saying it. According to the story it will be Jesus who says this.

I see what you're doing. They are one and the same.

If thats what you believe then you are contradicting what Jesus himself said.


"But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and their Father, My God and their God." John 20:17

By saying that his Father is our Father; his God, our God, Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either thought of himself as God or claimed to be God.

 

[hadit]

I was 59 and had just retired after 41 years on the job when I let my family know that not only did I not believe it I never had believed it. I lived the church life for 35 years and I used to look at others in the sanctuary on Sunday mornings and wonder if they doubted too.

There are many in church who will be very surprised to find out it did them no good when God says, "I never knew you".

thats correct man

Except that it won't be God saying it. According to the story it will be Jesus who says this.

I see what you're doing. They are one and the same.

If thats what you believe then you are contradicting what Jesus himself said.


"But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and their Father, My God and their God." John 20:17

By saying that his Father is our Father; his God, our God, Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either thought of himself as God or claimed to be God.

I think we've gone through that before and it is a huge subject that would derail this thread.

 

[Mudda]

And you know that how?

If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab. Thus, He is free to act in one circumstance and not in another, though we think they are the same.

So that fact that your invisible being can't be replicated in a lab is proof that it exists? Your logic is so weak that I'm afraid for your sanity.

I'm not offering you proof in that statement. Perhaps that's why you're confused. Here's a question for you. Exactly what proof of God's existence would you accept? Be as specific as possible.

Yes, you are offering proof "If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab" and you're saying that your invisible being can't be replicated so therefore it exists with its own free will. Which makes no sense at all. It actually shows the reverse to be truer to sane people.

I think I see where you're confused. I don't claim as proof of God's existence the fact that He can't be replicated in the lab. I'm simply stating that God, as a superior, sovereign being who is not restrained by the physical laws of the universe, does not have to to be proven by scientific testing in order to exist.

As for what proof I'd accept personally? Something tangible that proves a god. I'm agnostic, I see no real proof so far for a god but will gladly change my mind if irrefutable proof ever arises. Can't be any fairer than that.

Okay, let's use an example. Let's say you (like most of us) don't believe in UFO's and view those who do as crackpots. If you were standing in a field with no one else around and a UFO landed in front of you, a little green man came out, waved at you, then took off leaving no trace that it ever was there, would you become a UFO believer or would you doubt your own senses until they could be proven tangibly? IOW, would you insist that you actually saw a UFO or would you refuse to believe it until a scientist told you that you did? At what point would you accept something that can't be proven?

I think that UFOs are a strong possibility given all the abduction stories... The proof is not absolute yet though. Why? Your invisible superbeing been abducting people?
And how do you know that your invisible friend isn't restricted by the laws of the universe? He tell you that?

 

[hobelim]

Define "heard Him".

According to scripture God speaks to a person directly in dreams and visions through images and words.

Jesus said that God was with him always and told him exactly what to say to people and exactly how to say it.


God is neither vague or a quiet whisper.


If you heard from God you would have seen something first that all prophets see first before heating a word from God, you would not be asking anyone to define what they mean by "heard Him".

I don't claim to be a prophet, and it is legitimate to ask what someone means when they talk about hearing from God, because God is not bound to any one means of communication.

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

 

[hadit]

If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab. Thus, He is free to act in one circumstance and not in another, though we think they are the same.

So that fact that your invisible being can't be replicated in a lab is proof that it exists? Your logic is so weak that I'm afraid for your sanity.

I'm not offering you proof in that statement. Perhaps that's why you're confused. Here's a question for you. Exactly what proof of God's existence would you accept? Be as specific as possible.

Yes, you are offering proof "If He were accountable to mans' demands, He would be controllable, and thus replicated in the lab" and you're saying that your invisible being can't be replicated so therefore it exists with its own free will. Which makes no sense at all. It actually shows the reverse to be truer to sane people.

I think I see where you're confused. I don't claim as proof of God's existence the fact that He can't be replicated in the lab. I'm simply stating that God, as a superior, sovereign being who is not restrained by the physical laws of the universe, does not have to to be proven by scientific testing in order to exist.

As for what proof I'd accept personally? Something tangible that proves a god. I'm agnostic, I see no real proof so far for a god but will gladly change my mind if irrefutable proof ever arises. Can't be any fairer than that.

Okay, let's use an example. Let's say you (like most of us) don't believe in UFO's and view those who do as crackpots. If you were standing in a field with no one else around and a UFO landed in front of you, a little green man came out, waved at you, then took off leaving no trace that it ever was there, would you become a UFO believer or would you doubt your own senses until they could be proven tangibly? IOW, would you insist that you actually saw a UFO or would you refuse to believe it until a scientist told you that you did? At what point would you accept something that can't be proven?

I think that UFOs are a strong possibility given all the abduction stories... The proof is not absolute yet though.

Think about what you just said there and consider this statement.

"I think that God's existence is a strong possibility given all the stories of encounters with Him... The proof is not absolute yet though."

Why would you give more credence to scientifically unverifiable stories of alien abductions than to thousands of years of stories of people encountering God throughout human history? It would seem to me that it would be more consistent to say something along the lines of what I wrote.

Why? Your invisible superbeing been abducting people?

I'm getting at what kind of proof you would accept for God's existence. Would you accept proof that only you can verify or would you deny your own experience? If you would accept as proof of the existence of UFO's a single encounter that only you witnessed and that could not be scientifically verified, would you also accept such an encounter with God? Here's what I'm getting at. People have encounters with God that are personal and scientifically unverifiable. They believe because of those encounters. You seem to mock those people for their beliefs. Thus, I am asking you if you would believe something that only you experienced that could not be verified by science. If so, why would you mock others who have done the same thing?

And how do you know that your invisible friend isn't restricted by the laws of the universe? He tell you that?

He created the universe and its laws. It stands to reason that He would not be thus restricted.

 

[hadit]

Define "heard Him".

According to scripture God speaks to a person directly in dreams and visions through images and words.

Jesus said that God was with him always and told him exactly what to say to people and exactly how to say it.


God is neither vague or a quiet whisper.


If you heard from God you would have seen something first that all prophets see first before heating a word from God, you would not be asking anyone to define what they mean by "heard Him".

I don't claim to be a prophet, and it is legitimate to ask what someone means when they talk about hearing from God, because God is not bound to any one means of communication.

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

 

[hobelim]

Define "heard Him".

According to scripture God speaks to a person directly in dreams and visions through images and words.

Jesus said that God was with him always and told him exactly what to say to people and exactly how to say it.


God is neither vague or a quiet whisper.


If you heard from God you would have seen something first that all prophets see first before heating a word from God, you would not be asking anyone to define what they mean by "heard Him".

I don't claim to be a prophet, and it is legitimate to ask what someone means when they talk about hearing from God, because God is not bound to any one means of communication.

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

The question asked was if you ever saw or heard from God, not if you ever read a book about other people who heard from God.

Reading about about someone else who was kicked by a mule is not the same thing as being kicked by a mule.

You know that, right?

 

[hadit]

Define "heard Him".

According to scripture God speaks to a person directly in dreams and visions through images and words.

Jesus said that God was with him always and told him exactly what to say to people and exactly how to say it.


God is neither vague or a quiet whisper.


If you heard from God you would have seen something first that all prophets see first before heating a word from God, you would not be asking anyone to define what they mean by "heard Him".

I don't claim to be a prophet, and it is legitimate to ask what someone means when they talk about hearing from God, because God is not bound to any one means of communication.

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

The question asked was if you ever saw or heard from God, not if you ever read a book about other people who heard from God.

Reading about about someone else who was kicked by a mule is not the same thing as being kicked by a mule.

You know that, right?

Which is why you need to define "heard from". If I read a letter my wife wrote to me, have I heard from her? Yes. I do not need to see her face to face or hear her physical voice to "hear from" her. If I'm watching TV, and I see a clip from a speech the president made to the nation, have I "heard from" the president?

 

[hobelim]

According to scripture God speaks to a person directly in dreams and visions through images and words.

Jesus said that God was with him always and told him exactly what to say to people and exactly how to say it.


God is neither vague or a quiet whisper.


If you heard from God you would have seen something first that all prophets see first before heating a word from God, you would not be asking anyone to define what they mean by "heard Him".

I don't claim to be a prophet, and it is legitimate to ask what someone means when they talk about hearing from God, because God is not bound to any one means of communication.

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

The question asked was if you ever saw or heard from God, not if you ever read a book about other people who heard from God.

Reading about about someone else who was kicked by a mule is not the same thing as being kicked by a mule.

You know that, right?

Which is why you need to define "heard from". If I read a letter my wife wrote to me, have I heard from her? Yes. I do not need to see her face to face or hear her physical voice to "hear from" her. If I'm watching TV, and I see a clip from a speech the president made to the nation, have I "heard from" the president?

No, not the same at all.

You know your wife and have seen and heard the president before many times. Of them you could say you heard from them even if only from a distance..How would you know if something written came from your wife or the president if you were never married or never owned a TV and couldn't tell the difference between a president and an imposter?

If you have never seen or heard from God before, you know nothing about him from direct experience and couldn't possibly know the difference between god or the figment of some crazy persons imagination even if you read an entire library filled with books about God written by experts who never heard from God either..

 

[hadit]

I don't claim to be a prophet, and it is legitimate to ask what someone means when they talk about hearing from God, because God is not bound to any one means of communication.

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

The question asked was if you ever saw or heard from God, not if you ever read a book about other people who heard from God.

Reading about about someone else who was kicked by a mule is not the same thing as being kicked by a mule.

You know that, right?

Which is why you need to define "heard from". If I read a letter my wife wrote to me, have I heard from her? Yes. I do not need to see her face to face or hear her physical voice to "hear from" her. If I'm watching TV, and I see a clip from a speech the president made to the nation, have I "heard from" the president?

No, not the same at all.

You know your wife and have seen and heard the president before many times. Of them you could say you heard from them even if only from a distance..How would you know if something written came from your wife or the president if you were never married or never owned a TV and couldn't tell the difference between a president and an imposter?

If you have never seen or heard from God before, you know nothing about him from direct experience and couldn't possibly know the difference between god or the figment of some crazy persons imagination even if you read an entire library filled with books about God written by experts who never heard from God either..

And therein lies the difference. When God calls, you know it. When you answer and are in relationship with Him, you hear from Him. It's not something someone on the outside can ever understand, but that every Christian in relationship with God does. When I know a letter is from my wife, I hear from her. Likewise, when I know a written message is from God, I hear from Him.

 

[hobelim]

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

The question asked was if you ever saw or heard from God, not if you ever read a book about other people who heard from God.

Reading about about someone else who was kicked by a mule is not the same thing as being kicked by a mule.

You know that, right?

Which is why you need to define "heard from". If I read a letter my wife wrote to me, have I heard from her? Yes. I do not need to see her face to face or hear her physical voice to "hear from" her. If I'm watching TV, and I see a clip from a speech the president made to the nation, have I "heard from" the president?

No, not the same at all.

You know your wife and have seen and heard the president before many times. Of them you could say you heard from them even if only from a distance..How would you know if something written came from your wife or the president if you were never married or never owned a TV and couldn't tell the difference between a president and an imposter?

If you have never seen or heard from God before, you know nothing about him from direct experience and couldn't possibly know the difference between god or the figment of some crazy persons imagination even if you read an entire library filled with books about God written by experts who never heard from God either..

And therein lies the difference. When God calls, you know it. When you answer and are in relationship with Him, you hear from Him. It's not something someone on the outside can ever understand, but that every Christian in relationship with God does. When I know a letter is from my wife, I hear from her. Likewise, when I know a written message is from God, I hear from Him.

Ok.

In other words the answer to the original question about whether you have ever seen or heard from God in your entire life is no.

Thanks for the trip to mars and back again, but all you had to do was be honest.

 

[nicoleivy5]

Yes but he is bound by his word. If you heard from God in any form whatsoever you would not be worshipping a human being.

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

The question asked was if you ever saw or heard from God, not if you ever read a book about other people who heard from God.

Reading about about someone else who was kicked by a mule is not the same thing as being kicked by a mule.

You know that, right?

Which is why you need to define "heard from". If I read a letter my wife wrote to me, have I heard from her? Yes. I do not need to see her face to face or hear her physical voice to "hear from" her. If I'm watching TV, and I see a clip from a speech the president made to the nation, have I "heard from" the president?

No, not the same at all.

You know your wife and have seen and heard the president before many times. Of them you could say you heard from them even if only from a distance..How would you know if something written came from your wife or the president if you were never married or never owned a TV and couldn't tell the difference between a president and an imposter?

If you have never seen or heard from God before, you know nothing about him from direct experience and couldn't possibly know the difference between god or the figment of some crazy persons imagination even if you read an entire library filled with books about God written by experts who never heard from God either..

And therein lies the difference. When God calls, you know it. When you answer and are in relationship with Him, you hear from Him. It's not something someone on the outside can ever understand, but that every Christian in relationship with God does. When I know a letter is from my wife, I hear from her. Likewise, when I know a written message is from God, I hear from Him.

agreed

 

[hobelim]

Again, I am not a prophet. If I was, you would know. Have you ever read a letter or an email from a friend and thought, "It was nice to hear from them"? God speaks through His word, you do know that, right?

The question asked was if you ever saw or heard from God, not if you ever read a book about other people who heard from God.

Reading about about someone else who was kicked by a mule is not the same thing as being kicked by a mule.

You know that, right?

Which is why you need to define "heard from". If I read a letter my wife wrote to me, have I heard from her? Yes. I do not need to see her face to face or hear her physical voice to "hear from" her. If I'm watching TV, and I see a clip from a speech the president made to the nation, have I "heard from" the president?

No, not the same at all.

You know your wife and have seen and heard the president before many times. Of them you could say you heard from them even if only from a distance..How would you know if something written came from your wife or the president if you were never married or never owned a TV and couldn't tell the difference between a president and an imposter?

If you have never seen or heard from God before, you know nothing about him from direct experience and couldn't possibly know the difference between god or the figment of some crazy persons imagination even if you read an entire library filled with books about God written by experts who never heard from God either..

And therein lies the difference. When God calls, you know it. When you answer and are in relationship with Him, you hear from Him. It's not something someone on the outside can ever understand, but that every Christian in relationship with God does. When I know a letter is from my wife, I hear from her. Likewise, when I know a written message is from God, I hear from Him.

agreed

Sheesh.

all of you profess to seek and love only God but have settled for a phantom.

You worship Jesus as if he was God. If you read the Bible and had ears to hear you should have heard God openly proclaim that such a practice is vile and degrading and forbidden under penalty of death. Its kind of hard to not hear that.

You say and do the exact opposite. You say that doing what is forbidden results in eternal life.

Maybe, just maybe, you don't hear so good, eh?

Given the evidence of your own words, that contradict what is clearly written in black and white, is that so hard to believe?

 

[Vandalshandle]

I have written a will and sent it to [email protected] telling him that wherever Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson end up, send me somewhere else.