Zone1 Do Christians Proselytize out of “Love” - or Arrogance?

[Lisa558]

Now we're getting somewhere. Were your friends Jewish?

Of course they weren’t Jewish. What a ridiculous question. I never knew a Jew to join a missionary church!

They were, and are, Christians - but they were normal, respectful ones. We were great friends. But then they joined that horrible church, and kept pestering me to go. I was considering it, merely to appease them, and looked it up in the website. I was shocked. Their primary objective was to convert Jews!

So I told them no, and one of them sent me a video of a sermon, telling me he’d think I’d find it interesting. I was APPALLED to hear what they were teaching their members about Jews, and even more appalled that he didn’t realize how offensive it would be. It was all about G-d’s displeasure with Jews, with plenty of stuff added in about how cheap we all are - both financially and with emotional support.

Every email from them had quotes about Jesus from the NT, and I told them to stop sending those to me because it is offensive to quote Jesus to a Jew. They both seem surprised: why is it offensive to quote messages from our Savior to a Jew, they wanted to know. I mean, c’mon…..how dense can people be?!

I went months trying to get them to stop, because they had been good friends before they joined that church, but they got worse and worse. I eventually cut them out of my life.

 

[SweetSue92]

You’re the one with the intolerance. You are trying to get Jews to abandon the religion. I am fine with letting Christians be Christians, as long as they don’t show me disrespect by trying to convert me and warning me that fire and brimstone await.

Think of it. How can you believe that G-d is going to punish Jews by sending them to hell, and then claim you don’t think less of Jews?! You think we are so bad that we are doomed to a fiery fate.

Don't you think it's disrespectful to tell me what I think rather than ask me?

At any rate, I suspect two of your Jewish friends were converted by this big mega church, and then as brand new Christians, started evangelizing you. If I'm right, there are problems there, as you see, because their evangelism had a very bad effect on you. In fact such a bad effect that here you are talking to a Christian who has said none of these things, but you are attributing a lot of them to me...and that usually comes from a place of personal anger and/or hurt.

The first thing you should know is that evangelical Christian does not even mean you go out and tell a bunch of people about Jesus whether they want to hear it or not. People who are not Hindu or pagan or Jewish or Muslim often call themselves "Christian" because they celebrate Christmas or whatever (it's like the American default), so of us who really believe often refer to ourselves as EC to denote that we have been converted--we really believe. That's it.

I have an answer to your last couple of sentences that has nothing to do with you being Jewish, and nothing to do with desiring to convert you. But I'd prefer that you're ready to read it, even if you don't accept or like it, rather than blast back. Let me know.

 

[SweetSue92]

Of course they weren’t Jewish. What a ridiculous question. I never knew a Jew to join a missionary church!

They were, and are, Christians - but they were normal, respectful ones. We were great friends. But then they joined that horrible church, and kept pestering me to go. I was considering it, merely to appease them, and looked it up in the website. I was shocked. Their primary objective was to convert Jews!

So I told them no, and one of them sent me a video of a sermon, telling me he’d think I’d find it interesting. I was APPALLED to hear what they were teaching their members about Jews, and even more appalled that he didn’t realize how offensive it would be. It was all about G-d’s displeasure with Jews, with plenty of stuff added in about how cheap we all are - both financially and with emotional support.

Every email from them had quotes about Jesus from the NT, and I told them to stop sending those to me because it is offensive to quote Jesus to a Jew. They both seem surprised: why is it offensive to quote messages from our Savior to a Jew, they wanted to know. I mean, c’mon…..how dense can people be?!

I went months trying to get them to stop, because they had been good friends before they joined that church, but they got worse and worse. I eventually cut them out of my life.

I have never heard of such a thing--and I have belonged as a member to three denominations and attended many more Christian churches. Only, and ONLY, an "independent" church could get away with this because any Christian denomination would kick any church who did this out.

I have never heard of such a thing, ever, from any pulpit in any church. I'm sorry you had to go through that. There are anti-Semites in all walks of life, but I've never heard of or encountered this. It does not represent standard Christian teaching or thinking.

Is that church still operating, do you know?

 

[Coyote]

Having been on the receiving end of Evangelical Christians‘ relentless attempts to get me to abandon my religion (Judaism), I have often heard them say they do it out of love to “share the Truth.” The attempt to convert usually escalates to dire warnings of the hell that awaits and how angry G-d is with Jews.

So is this really love? There are numerous religions in the world, with the majority of people not believing in Jesus, and one‘s religious beliefs are as much the truth to them as Christians beliefs are to Christians.

In this article, it explains how force-feeding one’s religious beliefs onto others, with the insistence that their way and only their way is the path to G-d, is both arrogant and disrespectful. I hope that those who have been aggressively proselytizing will give it some thought.

To Those Proselytizing Out Of Love: You Aren’t

I have something to say to those who are trying to convert me to their religion because they say they love me: that’s not love. That’s arrogance, disrespect, fear, ego, and a lot more.

www.patheos.com

Probably this is the only thing we will ever agree on….

Though it depends in on the individual. I know a person who is devout, but is willing to share if the other is curious, she never forces it. But unfortunately history is littered with religious arrogance. I’ve never agreed with “there can be only one way”.

Some of the worst examples were after we invaded Iraq, and missionaries were lined at the border with their bibles. Never mind that in rural Iraq, Islam was hardline, and people faced harsh penalties (including death) for conversion. But hey….the afterlife was more important than their current life so at least if they died they got the Word

 

[Lisa558]

Don't you think it's disrespectful to tell me what I think rather than ask me?

At any rate, I suspect two of your Jewish friends were converted by this big mega church, and then as brand new Christians, started evangelizing you. If I'm right, there are problems there, as you see, because their evangelism had a very bad effect on you. In fact such a bad effect that here you are talking to a Christian who has said none of these things, but you are attributing a lot of them to me...and that usually comes from a place of personal anger and/or hurt.

The first thing you should know is that evangelical Christian does not even mean you go out and tell a bunch of people about Jesus whether they want to hear it or not. People who are not Hindu or pagan or Jewish or Muslim often call themselves "Christian" because they celebrate Christmas or whatever (it's like the American default), so of us who really believe often refer to ourselves as EC to denote that we have been converted--we really believe. That's it.

I have an answer to your last couple of sentences that has nothing to do with you being Jewish, and nothing to do with desiring to convert you. But I'd prefer that you're ready to read it, even if you don't accept or like it, rather than blast back. Let me know.

What??? You tell me not to tell you what to think, and then you call ME a liar?

Of course they weren’t Jewish friends. I told you they were Christians. And you’re telling me, “no, they were Jewish and converted.”

Anyway, after you called me a liar, instead of being able to recognize how awful these former Christian friends were to me, I didn’t read any further.

I’ve never known a single Jew to convert to Christianity. I do know several who have converted from Christianity to Judaism, including one of my closest friends and several in my synagogue.

 

[surada]

I would be interested to know what you consider our attempts to get you to abandon your religion. That is, in this forum I often post Bible verses, tell Christian truths, etc. I put it out there for consideration like I put all ideas here out for consideration--you are free to accept, reject or table, same as all my other assertions. But some people think every time a Christian posts "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" or some such, it's force-feeding.

The article makes clear that the woman feels damaged by her childhood Christianity. I see that a lot, even here on USMB. That's a separate issue that arguing a religion on its merits (not an invalid issue, but separate). She thinks our belief that Jesus Christ is the only way to God "arrogant" because she's angry, maybe even bitter.


As you see, there is a lot that goes into "keep it to yourself". And it's usually personal, tbh.

This Christian wants to kill lesbians.

Christian preacher calls for death to lesbians: “Putting a bullet in their head is too nice”

"All the lesbos, all the dy**s, all these butch dy**s out there, they deserve the death penalty too...

www.lgbtqnation.com

 

[surada]

Probably this is the only thing we will ever agree on….

Though it depends in on the individual. I know a person who is devout, but is willing to share if the other is curious, she never forces it. But unfortunately history is littered with religious arrogance. I’ve never agreed with “there can be only one way”.

Some of the worst examples were after we invaded Iraq, and missionaries were lined at the border with their bibles. Never mind that in rural Iraq, Islam was hardline, and people faced harsh penalties (including death) for conversion. But hey….the afterlife was more important than their current life so at least if they died they got the Word

Baghdad had 50 Christian churches before Bush invaded.

 

[Coyote]

Baghdad had 50 Christian churches before Bush invaded.

We’re they destroyed in the violence and subsequent civil war and religious violence?

 

[surada]

Of course they weren’t Jewish. What a ridiculous question. I never knew a Jew to join a missionary church!

They were, and are, Christians - but they were normal, respectful ones. We were great friends. But then they joined that horrible church, and kept pestering me to go. I was considering it, merely to appease them, and looked it up in the website. I was shocked. Their primary objective was to convert Jews!

So I told them no, and one of them sent me a video of a sermon, telling me he’d think I’d find it interesting. I was APPALLED to hear what they were teaching their members about Jews, and even more appalled that he didn’t realize how offensive it would be. It was all about G-d’s displeasure with Jews, with plenty of stuff added in about how cheap we all are - both financially and with emotional support.

Every email from them had quotes about Jesus from the NT, and I told them to stop sending those to me because it is offensive to quote Jesus to a Jew. They both seem surprised: why is it offensive to quote messages from our Savior to a Jew, they wanted to know. I mean, c’mon…..how dense can people be?!

I went months trying to get them to stop, because they had been good friends before they joined that church, but they got worse and worse. I eventually cut them out of my life.

The rapture ready fundamentalists believe that in the end 2/3rds of Jews will die and the remainder will convert to Christianity. That's part of the Scofield heresy. It's crazy and not biblical, but they believe it.

 

[surada]

We’re they destroyed in the violence and subsequent civil war and religious violence?

Some were destroyed. Iraqi Christians suffered because it was a "Christian nation" that invaded. Bush had near zero religious education. He claimed that he was fighting Gog and Magog.

 

[Lisa558]

Probably this is the only thing we will ever agree on….

Though it depends in on the individual. I know a person who is devout, but is willing to share if the other is curious, she never forces it. But unfortunately history is littered with religious arrogance. I’ve never agreed with “there can be only one way”.

Some of the worst examples were after we invaded Iraq, and missionaries were lined at the border with their bibles. Never mind that in rural Iraq, Islam was hardline, and people faced harsh penalties (including death) for conversion. But hey….the afterlife was more important than their current life so at least if they died they got the Word

Well, we’ve finally found some common ground. Hallelujah!

I‘ve said repeatedly throughout the thread that if a Christian gently broaches the subject, that‘s one thing, and then backs off If there is no interest. But it‘s when they keep after you to take classes at their Christian Bible Church (which means learn the NT), attend services where the preacher warns about what happens to Jews in the afterlife, send emails with NT messages, etc., etc., it is obvious that such actions are both arrogant and disrespectful.

I am also glad you too believe there is more than one path to G-d. I can’t imagine a G-d so narrowly focused that only the minority who are Christians will get to Heaven, even though there are good, righteous people of all religions. Anyway, this is what Judaism teaches.

 

[surada]

Well, we’ve finally found some common ground. Hallelujah!

I‘ve said repeatedly throughout the thread that if a Christian gently broaches the subject, that‘s one thing, and then backs off If there is no interest. But it‘s when they keep after you to take classes at their Christian Bible Church (which means learn the NT), attend services where the preacher warns about what happens to Jews in the afterlife, send emails with NT messages, etc., etc., it is obvious that such actions are both arrogant and disrespectful.

I am also glad you too believe there is more than one path to G-d. I can’t imagine a G-d so narrowly focused that only the minority who are Christians will get to Heaven, even though there are good, righteous people of all religions. Anyway, this is what Judaism teaches.

Self-righteous people often enjoy hurting others.

 

[Lisa558]

The rapture ready fundamentalists believe that in the end 2/3rds of Jews will die and the remainder will convert to Christianity. That's part of the Scofield heresy. It's crazy and not biblical, but they believe it.

If it’s not biblical, where did they come up with that stuff? I thought it was in Revelations.

 

[Lisa558]

Self-righteous people often enjoy hurting others.

But I didn’t say SELF- righteous. I said righteous. Judaism specifically teaches that there is a path for righteous Gentiles, in addition to Jews.

 

[surada]

If it’s not biblical, where did they come up with that stuff? I thought it was in Revelations.

Nope it comes from the Darbyites about 1830. Schofield promoted it in 1909.. Then they set up the Moody institute and the Dallas theological seminary.. Hal Lindsey capitalized on it in 1973.

Now we even have Catholic evangelicals.

 

[surada]

But I didn’t say SELF- righteous. I said righteous. Judaism specifically teaches that there is a path for righteous Gentiles, in addition to Jews.

Your friends are self righteous.

 

[Lisa558]

Nope it comes from the Darbyites about 1830. Schofield promoted it in 1909.. Then they set up the Moody institute and the Dallas theological seminary.. Hal Lindsey capitalized on it in 1973.

Now we even have Catholic evangelicals.

That’s interesting. I’ll have to do some reading on that.

 

[surada]

That’s interesting. I’ll have to do some reading on that.

The Scofield heresy gave birth to Dominionism, Dispensationists and creeps like John Hagee. The Dallas theological seminary has turned out thousands of these preachers.

 

[BS Filter]

Who wouldn’t be bothered by being told by ECs that people of other religions don’t have a path to G-d, and only Christians do? It’s insulting and disrespectful. And of course untrue. G-d welcomes all his righteous children.

Why don’t YOU admit that Judaism bothers you? Otherwise, why go around trying to get Jews to abandon their religion? The very GOAL of Evangelical Christians is to convert all Jews, and eradicate Judaism as a religion.

Why don’t YOU be honest with yourself and admit what your goal is, and that it is disrespectful to those of other religions. Particularly to Jews, who seem to have a special target on their backs.

Jesus is a Jew. The Disciples were Jews. Most of the early Church were Jews. Many Jews today are Christians. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the Savior of the World.

There, I just did my part. Take it or leave it.

 

[Lisa558]

Jesus is a Jew. The Disciples were Jews. Most of the early Church were Jews. Many Jews today are Christians. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the Savior of the World.

There, I just did my part. Take it or leave it.

I‘m aware that it is your opinion that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. (And of course we all know he was Jewish.)

But it’s not necessary to state it again to a Jew whom you know follows traditional Judaism, which teaches that the Messiah has not yet come.