Democratic Socialism/Communism is the only solution to advanced automation & artificial intelligence.

[Oddball]

 

[Cellblock2429]

The numbers you cite about deaths under communism are largely conjured up by pro-capitalist propagandists. They're pulled out of thin air, without a shred of credible evidence.

When we consider the tens of millions of innocent people who died as a result of British imperialism alone, it dwarfs the number of people allegedly killed by communists. Let's look at the so-called "Black Book of Communism." Even some of the authors of this book disagreed with the 100 million figure. The main author used absurd metrics, such as counting deaths from Nazi Germany in WWII and even the babies that weren't born in the USSR that would have been born if not for communism. These ridiculous standards make their death tolls highly suspect.

Furthermore, many scholars today dispute the high figures of people who died in the gulags or during the famine in China. These high figures are not universally accepted and are often challenged by historians who have studied these periods in detail.

On the other hand, capitalism, particularly British colonialism and imperialism, led by profit-pursuing capitalists like the East India Company, resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of people. Capitalist reforms in India, for instance, led to millions dying in famines. The British-imposed opium trade in China killed millions. Millions also died in Kenya due to British colonial policies. And this is just British imperialism—French, Spanish, and other European empires, driven by the pursuit of profit and wealth, also caused untold deaths and suffering.

Consider the slave trade, which was an entirely capitalist venture, leading to the deaths of millions of Africans and the destruction of countless lives and communities. How many people died in famines as a direct result of capitalist policies that prioritized profit over human life? How many died in wars fueled by capitalist interests?

So, when you talk about deaths, it's crucial to recognize that capitalism, through its imperialist and colonial ventures, has caused an enormous amount of death and suffering.

/——/ I expect nothing less from you. Are you now going to deny the Holocaust?

 

[TruthNotBS]

The argument is factual, your unprepossessing, dissembling, and borderline incoherent text brick notwithstanding.

In any transaction, there is a buyer and a seller....The State has the power of proactive aggression, and corporatists want that power turned to their advantage....The State doesn't put the power up for bids, there isn't an auction.

You're not 1/100th as clever as you obviously believe yourself to be.

Oddball, your response completely ignores how capitalists use their money to corrupt democracy. The claim that it's solely the fault of the government, while capitalists have no hand in this, is dishonest and a gross oversimplification.

Capitalists inherently use their vast resources to influence and corrupt the government. They take control of the media, shaping public opinion to serve their interests. They fund think tanks and have an army of academics writing legislation favorable to them. Additionally, they employ an army of lobbyists who legally bribe politicians to advance their interests.

Capitalist Influence on Democracy​

1. Control of the Media: Capitalists own major media outlets, which allows them to shape public discourse and manipulate public opinion to protect and enhance their interests. This control creates a biased narrative that often favors capitalist policies and politicians who support their agenda.
2. Funding Think Tanks: Capitalists fund think tanks that produce research and policy recommendations that align with their interests. These think tanks then influence public policy and legislative agendas, further entrenching capitalist power.
3. Lobbying: Capitalists spend vast sums of money on lobbying efforts to ensure that politicians pass laws that benefit them. The Citizens United decision, which allows unlimited corporate spending in elections, has only exacerbated this problem, giving wealthy capitalists even more power to influence politics.
4. Legislation: Through their financial power, capitalists support the election of candidates who will serve their interests. These politicians, once in office, pass laws that favor the wealthy and corporations, often at the expense of the broader public.

To claim that the problem is solely with the government, and that capitalists are innocent in this dynamic, is disingenuous. The reality is that capitalists actively seek to influence and corrupt democratic processes to serve their own interests, undermining true democracy. By ignoring this, you overlook a fundamental aspect of how power operates within capitalist societies.

In any transaction, there might be a buyer and a seller, but in the case of political influence, the vast financial power of capitalists distorts this relationship. The state might not put its power up for bids in an auction, but capitalists use their resources to effectively buy influence through campaign contributions, lobbying, and control over information.

Dismissing this reality doesn't make it go away. It's essential to acknowledge and address the ways in which capitalism inherently fosters cronyism and corruption, undermining the democratic process and perpetuating inequality.

 

[TruthNotBS]

View attachment 976019

Those are countries under siege-socialism. They're under siege by the capitalist empire i.e. USA = 800 Pound Gorilla. The nations that don't outwardly identify as socialist or communist, and have more of a mixed economy (socialism light), are generally not sanctioned and under siege, and such countries do very well.

Western Europe is essentially Democratic Socialist. You Republicans shout "Commie" whenever an American progressive politician tries to implement the same government policies that are in those democratic socialist countries, here in America. So based upon your own rhetoric, there are many successful socialist countries around the world.

 

[Stryder50]

The people are pro-communist in Cuba, and your tactic of torturing the people to punish communists, only makes the situation worse for the people you're supposedly trying to "rescue". It also undermines all of your silly arguments against communism not working or being disfunctional, when a capitalist empire is constantly besieging communism.

If communism is ineffective why are you so scared of it? Just let it fail on its own, but you can't do that, because you know that if you don't constantly attack it, it will develop and set the example for other countries to do the same.

OMG!

If Marxism/communism was so effective and perfect an economic system, it would work without any assistance from the capitalists.
In fact it should work better without any transfer of knowledge, technology, wealth, or capital from the non-communist world.

An honest examine of history shows that Marxism/communism can ONLY survive with the Western Capitalist propping it up.

 

[Stryder50]

Lift the 60+ year economic embargo.

If Marxist-communism and Cuba's application of such were really superior to the capitalism of the West, than Castro's Cuba would have excelled and succeeded wildly despite the "economic embargo".

The fact that it floundered, even with the limited support of other Marxist-communist nations, displays clearly that the economic and political ideology of Marxism/communism is a failure from inception onward.

It would be better for an economic parasitic leech like you "BSNotTruth" to learn how to work, how to be productive and profitable, and how to stand on your own two feet and support yourself rather than advocate for political legalization of theft from producers being "redistributed" to the social deadwood like yourself.

The world will be a much better place once parasitic bloodsucker deadwood non-producers like you are gone.

 

[TruthNotBS]

OMG!

If Marxism/communism was so effective and perfect an economic system, it would work without any assistance from the capitalists.
In fact it should work better without any transfer of knowledge, technology, wealth, or capital from the non-communist world.

An honest examine of history shows that Marxism/communism can ONLY survive with the Western Capitalist propping it up.

Countries like North Korea and Cuba are not isolated failures of communism but are nations under siege by the capitalist empire, primarily the USA. These countries are subjected to brutal economic sanctions, military threats, and international isolation orchestrated by the United States, which controls the world banking system and the reserve currency. The USA uses its economic might to cripple these nations, making it incredibly difficult for them to thrive independently.

Impact of Sanctions and Embargoes​

The economic embargo on Cuba is a prime example. The US imposes severe penalties on international banks and companies that engage in any financial transactions with Cuba. This makes Cuba a pariah in the global financial system. Any foreign company that does business in Cuba cannot do business in the US. Cargo ships that anchor in Cuban ports are prohibited from anchoring in US ports for six months. These sanctions are designed to strangle the Cuban economy and have nothing to do with the effectiveness of socialism or communism.

Comparison with Democratic Socialism​

Western Europe, with its democratic socialist policies, demonstrates that socialism can be highly successful when not under siege. Countries like Denmark, Sweden, and Norway implement extensive social welfare programs, public healthcare, and education systems that are the envy of the world. These nations are not subjected to the same crippling sanctions and military threats that countries like Cuba face. If American progressives propose similar policies, they are derided as "commies" by Republicans, yet these policies lead to thriving, equitable societies.

The Role of BRICS​

The BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) are now challenging American dominance over the world economy. They are working to establish alternative systems to bypass the negative effects of American economic sanctions. This effort underscores the extent to which the US uses its economic power to suppress nations that do not conform to its capitalist model.

Conclusion​

The argument that communism should succeed despite being besieged by the world's largest economic and military power is absurd. The failures you attribute to communism are largely the result of sustained and deliberate economic warfare by capitalist powers. When socialism is allowed to function without such interference, as seen in various European nations, it can lead to prosperous, equitable societies. To ignore this context is to misunderstand the true nature of the global economic system and the deliberate actions taken by capitalist powers to undermine alternatives to their hegemony.

 

[Oddball]

Those are countries under siege-socialism. They're under siege by the capitalist empire i.e. USA = 800 Pound Gorilla. The nations that don't outwardly identify as socialist or communist, and have more of a mixed economy (socialism light), are generally not sanctioned and under siege, and such countries do very well.

Western Europe is essentially Democratic Socialist. You Republicans shout "Commie" whenever an American progressive politician tries to implement the same government policies that are in those democratic socialist countries, here in America. So based upon your own rhetoric, there are many successful socialist countries around the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.....lt's always someone else's fault that your economically ignorant, human nature ignoring, mass murdering, scam for totalitarian power hasn't worked.

But THIS time, we're really going to make it happen!!

 

[TruthNotBS]

If Marxist-communism and Cuba's application of such were really superior to the capitalism of the West, than Castro's Cuba would have excelled and succeeded wildly despite the "economic embargo".

The fact that it floundered, even with the limited support of other Marxist-communist nations, displays clearly that the economic and political ideology of Marxism/communism is a failure from inception onward.

It would be better for an economic parasitic leech like you "BSNotTruth" to learn how to work, how to be productive and profitable, and how to stand on your own two feet and support yourself rather than advocate for political legalization of theft from producers being "redistributed" to the social deadwood like yourself.

The world will be a much better place once parasitic bloodsucker deadwood non-producers like you are gone.

Stryder, your claims about Cuba and Marxist-communism are fundamentally flawed and ignore the broader context of geopolitical power dynamics and sustained economic warfare waged by the capitalist West.

​

Misconceptions About the Economic Embargo​

The assertion that Cuba should have excelled despite the economic embargo is absurd when considering the extent of the sanctions. The embargo is designed to isolate Cuba economically and politically, preventing it from engaging in normal trade relations. This is not a mere obstacle; it's a calculated effort to cripple the Cuban economy. The embargo includes severe penalties for international banks and businesses that deal with Cuba, effectively making it a financial pariah. It's disingenuous to claim that any country could "succeed wildly" under such conditions, regardless of its economic system.

Limited Support from Other Marxist-Communist Nations​

The support from other Marxist-communist nations has been limited and insufficient to counteract the extensive sanctions imposed by the United States. The Soviet Union provided significant aid during the Cold War, but after its collapse, Cuba faced a "Special Period" of severe economic hardship. This further demonstrates that the challenges Cuba faced were not due to the inherent flaws of Marxism-communism but rather the geopolitical shifts and sustained efforts by capitalist powers to undermine it.

Superior Performance of Democratic Socialist Nations​

Contrary to your assertion, many countries with mixed economies and democratic socialist policies have thrived. Western European nations like Norway, Sweden, and Denmark implement extensive social welfare programs and maintain high standards of living. These countries are not subjected to the same crippling sanctions and military threats as Cuba. If socialism were inherently flawed, these nations would not be as prosperous and equitable as they are today.

Productivity and Economic Contribution​

The claim that advocating for socialism is akin to being an "economic parasitic leech" is a baseless ad hominem attack. Socialism advocates for a fair distribution of resources and opportunities, ensuring that everyone can contribute productively to society. It's about creating a system where people's basic needs are met, enabling them to be truly productive and innovative without the burden of crippling poverty or exploitation. Many who advocate for socialism work hard and contribute significantly to society; they simply seek a fairer, more equitable system.

Conclusion​

Cuba's struggles are not a reflection of the inherent failures of Marxist-communism but rather the result of sustained economic warfare and geopolitical isolation by capitalist powers. When socialism is allowed to function without such interference, as seen in various democratic socialist countries, it can lead to prosperous and equitable societies. The failures you attribute to socialism are more accurately seen as the consequences of external sabotage rather than intrinsic flaws. The true measure of an economic system's success must account for the external pressures and constraints it faces, and in this context, socialism demonstrates considerable strengths.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.....lt's always someone else's fault that your economically ignorant, human nature ignoring, mass murdering, scam for totalitarian power hasn't worked.

But THIS time, we're really going to make it happen!!

View attachment 976036

Oddball, your dismissal of the systemic factors at play in the failure of certain communist regimes is not only simplistic but also ignores the historical bloodshed and exploitation that capitalism has wrought. Let's address your points and provide a clearer picture of the realities of both systems.

Historical Bloodshed and Exploitation under Capitalism​

Colonialism and Imperialism​

• British Colonialism: British colonial rule in India alone caused tens of millions of deaths due to famines exacerbated by exploitative economic policies. The Bengal Famine of 1943, where around 3 million people died, was largely a result of British wartime policies and neglect.
• Opium Wars: The British Empire's enforcement of opium trade in China led to widespread addiction, social decay, and millions of deaths, culminating in the Opium Wars which further entrenched British economic dominance at the expense of Chinese lives.
• African Slave Trade: The transatlantic slave trade, driven by capitalist profit motives, resulted in the deaths of millions of Africans and untold suffering for those who survived the Middle Passage only to face brutal exploitation on plantations in the Americas.

Wars for Profit and Resources​

• World Wars: World War I and World War II, while not purely capitalist ventures, were heavily influenced by imperialist and nationalist ambitions rooted in economic interests. These conflicts caused tens of millions of deaths and widespread devastation.
• Vietnam War: The US intervention in Vietnam, motivated by a mix of anti-communist sentiment and economic interests in Southeast Asia, led to the deaths of over 2 million Vietnamese civilians and soldiers, along with significant American casualties.

Economic Sanctions and Siege Conditions​

• Cuba and North Korea: The prolonged economic embargoes and sanctions imposed by the US have stifled economic growth and caused immense hardship. These measures are explicitly designed to undermine these countries' economies and have little to do with the inherent capabilities of their economic systems.

Success of Democratic Socialism​

• Western Europe: Countries like Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, which incorporate socialist policies within their democratic frameworks, consistently rank high in terms of quality of life, economic equality, and social welfare. These countries demonstrate that socialist principles can lead to thriving societies when not subjected to external sabotage.

The Myth of "Human Nature"​

• Cooperation and Solidarity: Human nature is not solely defined by competition and self-interest. Throughout history, communities have thrived on cooperation, mutual aid, and solidarity. Socialism taps into these aspects of human nature, promoting collective well-being over individual greed.

Capitalist Totalitarianism​

• Corporate Control: In capitalist societies, large corporations wield immense power, often undermining democratic processes. Lobbying, political contributions, and media control allow a small elite to influence government policies to their benefit, often at the expense of the majority.

Conclusion​

Your argument ignores the historical and contemporary realities of capitalist exploitation and bloodshed. The failures of certain communist regimes are often due to external pressures and internal mismanagement rather than inherent flaws in the ideology itself. When given a fair chance, as seen in various democratic socialist countries, socialist principles can lead to prosperous, equitable, and just societies. To dismiss these realities is to overlook the vast human cost of unchecked capitalism.

 

[Oddball]

Oddball, your dismissal of the systemic factors at play in the failure of certain communist regimes is not only simplistic but also ignores the historical bloodshed and exploitation that capitalism has wrought. Let's address your points and provide a clearer picture of the realities of both systems.

Historical Bloodshed and Exploitation under Capitalism​

Colonialism and Imperialism​

• British Colonialism: British colonial rule in India alone caused tens of millions of deaths due to famines exacerbated by exploitative economic policies. The Bengal Famine of 1943, where around 3 million people died, was largely a result of British wartime policies and neglect.
• Opium Wars: The British Empire's enforcement of opium trade in China led to widespread addiction, social decay, and millions of deaths, culminating in the Opium Wars which further entrenched British economic dominance at the expense of Chinese lives.
• African Slave Trade: The transatlantic slave trade, driven by capitalist profit motives, resulted in the deaths of millions of Africans and untold suffering for those who survived the Middle Passage only to face brutal exploitation on plantations in the Americas.

Wars for Profit and Resources​

• World Wars: World War I and World War II, while not purely capitalist ventures, were heavily influenced by imperialist and nationalist ambitions rooted in economic interests. These conflicts caused tens of millions of deaths and widespread devastation.
• Vietnam War: The US intervention in Vietnam, motivated by a mix of anti-communist sentiment and economic interests in Southeast Asia, led to the deaths of over 2 million Vietnamese civilians and soldiers, along with significant American casualties.

Economic Sanctions and Siege Conditions​

• Cuba and North Korea: The prolonged economic embargoes and sanctions imposed by the US have stifled economic growth and caused immense hardship. These measures are explicitly designed to undermine these countries' economies and have little to do with the inherent capabilities of their economic systems.

Success of Democratic Socialism​

• Western Europe: Countries like Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, which incorporate socialist policies within their democratic frameworks, consistently rank high in terms of quality of life, economic equality, and social welfare. These countries demonstrate that socialist principles can lead to thriving societies when not subjected to external sabotage.

The Myth of "Human Nature"​

• Cooperation and Solidarity: Human nature is not solely defined by competition and self-interest. Throughout history, communities have thrived on cooperation, mutual aid, and solidarity. Socialism taps into these aspects of human nature, promoting collective well-being over individual greed.

Capitalist Totalitarianism​

• Corporate Control: In capitalist societies, large corporations wield immense power, often undermining democratic processes. Lobbying, political contributions, and media control allow a small elite to influence government policies to their benefit, often at the expense of the majority.

Conclusion​

Your argument ignores the historical and contemporary realities of capitalist exploitation and bloodshed. The failures of certain communist regimes are often due to external pressures and internal mismanagement rather than inherent flaws in the ideology itself. When given a fair chance, as seen in various democratic socialist countries, socialist principles can lead to prosperous, equitable, and just societies. To dismiss these realities is to overlook the vast human cost of unchecked capitalism.

 

[TruthNotBS]

View attachment 976052

It's not for you, it's for those who are interested. For their sake, not yours.

​

 

[Oddball]

It's not for you, it's for those who are interested. For their sake, not yours.

No, it's for your sake...If it's one thing that you commie numbskulls are good at, it's preaching to yourselves.

I have no doubt that you have those dreary screeds all pre-written, filed and ready for the ole copypasta at the drop of a hat.

 

[TruthNotBS]

No, it's for your sake...If it's one thing that you commie numbskulls are good at, it's preaching to yourselves.

I have no doubt that you have those dreary screeds all pre-written, filed and ready for the ole copypasta at the drop of a hat.

Oddball, your flippant response and Jack Nicholson meme might be entertaining, but it doesn't address the substance of the argument. It’s easy to dismiss complex discussions with memes and sarcasm, but it takes more effort to engage with the actual points being made.

Instead of resorting to memes and dismissive comments, why not engage with the points directly?

The Purpose of the Debate​

Yes, part of this debate is for my sake—to sharpen my arguments and clarify my thoughts. But more importantly, it’s for the sake of those who are genuinely interested in understanding the complexities of economic systems and their impact on human lives. It’s for those who are tired of superficial dismissals and want to engage in meaningful discussion.

The Real “Copypasta”​

If anyone is relying on pre-written scripts, it’s those who reflexively defend capitalism without addressing its inherent flaws. The real “copypasta” here is the tired, old rhetoric that capitalism is the pinnacle of human achievement while ignoring its many problems.

Final Thought​

So, Oddball, while you might find comfort in memes and sarcasm, remember that the real impact of these debates is on those who seek the truth, not those who hide behind dismissive gestures. If you’re ready to engage with substance rather than snark, let’s have a real discussion. Otherwise, your boredom speaks more about your unwillingness to confront uncomfortable truths than it does about the validity of the pro-communist arguments presented.

 

[Oddball]

 

[Foxfyre]

It's obvious that the only true solution to the inevitable replacement of human wage-labor by advanced automation and artificial intelligence, is a marketless, non-profit, publicly owned, more democratic, centrally planned system of mass production, a.k.a. socialism. The billionaires see the writing on the wall:

​

No wage labor (or not enough of it) = No Paying Consumers (or not enough customers) = No Market (or not a large enough market worth investing in) = No Profits (not enough ROI) = No Capitalism (No Capitalists Making A Profit) = Socialism (non-profit, marketless production that doesn't rely on wages being paid to a labor force, that purchases products and services in a market).

Winit X Quicktron | World's largest Automated Bin-to-person Warehouse

Pizza-making robot makes its debut in Paris

Autonomous pizza delivery robot hits the road

Inside Amazon’s robot revolution​

When production is fully or mostly automated, there's no more need for wage-labor or markets. Socialism is the natural, inevitable successor of capitalism, just as capitalism was the successor of feudalism.

Americans due to decades of Cold War anti-socialist, capitalist propaganda, and brainwashing, are unable to accept this self-evident fact. It's mostly Americans over 50 years old, who have trouble coming to terms with this, not the younger generation. The Millenials are much more open to socialism and the Zoomers are the most socialist generation in American history.

The transition to a non-profit system of production is going to be much smoother in the near future, as boomers retire and the younger generation takes the helm.

The I'm the government and you should trust me gambit has been going on for at least thousands of years.

And trusting government to provide you with what you want and needs hasn't worked well for the common person in all those thousands of years.

Yes civilization evolves and advances, but the tried and true system of free market capitalism and the butcher and baker looking to their own interests has never failed to find ways to provide products and services people want and are willing to pay for. There is no reason to think that won't continue even as technology takes away some jobs. A free people with liberty to innovate, develop, create, look to their own interests finds ways to continue more efficiently and effectively than any government will ever do.

 

[TruthNotBS]

View attachment 976069

CIA AGENTS CONFESS TO CAPITALIST-COLD WAR SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST COMMUNISM/COMMUNISTS:





CIA Officer Frank Snepp Discusses Planting Stories in Vietnam

https://www.heritage-history.com/site/hclass/secret_societies/ebooks/pdf/butler_racket.pdf

 

[TruthNotBS]

The I'm the government and you should trust me gambit has been going on for at least thousands of years.

And trusting government to provide you with what you want and needs hasn't worked well for the common person in all those thousands of years.

Yes civilization evolves and advances, but the tried and true system of free market capitalism and the butcher and baker looking to their own interests has never failed to find ways to provide products and services people want and are willing to pay for. There is no reason to think that won't continue even as technology takes away some jobs. A free people with liberty to innovate, develop, create, look to their own interests finds ways to continue more efficiently and effectively than any government will ever do.

Foxfyre, your argument conveniently ignores the reality that capitalists frequently rely on government support and intervention to solve their problems and sustain their profits.

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy

Let’s address your points and clarify why a marketless, non-profit, publicly owned, and more democratic system is not only feasible but necessary in the face of advancing automation and AI.

Government Dependence in Capitalism​

You claim that trusting the government has never worked well for the common person, yet history shows that capitalists themselves depend heavily on government support. From bailouts during economic crises to subsidies that sustain industries, government intervention is a cornerstone of modern capitalism. Here are a few examples:

1. Bailouts and Subsidies: During the 2008 financial crisis, massive bailouts were provided to banks and corporations to prevent a complete economic collapse. Companies like General Motors, AIG, and major banks received billions in taxpayer money. The government stepped in to prop up the very system you claim doesn’t need it.
2. Corporate Welfare: Companies across various sectors receive billions in government subsidies. For instance, the fossil fuel industry benefits from significant subsidies to the tune of billions annually, despite being highly profitable. Agriculture, aerospace, and tech industries are also heavily subsidized.
3. Public Services: Capitalists benefit from publicly funded infrastructure, education systems that train their workforce, and research and development often funded by public money. The internet itself was developed through government-funded research.

Automation and the Future of Work​

As automation and AI advance, the traditional model of wage labor is becoming obsolete. Here’s why your reliance on "free market capitalism" to solve this is flawed:

1. No Wage Labor, No Market: Automation reduces the need for human labor, which means fewer people with wages to spend on goods and services. Without consumers, the capitalist model of profit-driven production collapses. The billionaires recognize this and hence support ideas like Universal Basic Income (UBI) to create a customer base.
2. Government as a Solution: Contrary to your claims, the government can and does provide effective solutions. Social Security, Medicare, and public education are all successful programs that have significantly improved the quality of life for millions of Americans.

The Myth of the Free Market​

You romanticize the idea of the "butcher and baker" looking to their own interests, but this nostalgic view overlooks the realities of modern capitalism:

1. Monopolies and Oligopolies: The free market you describe rarely exists. Instead, we see monopolies and oligopolies where a few large corporations dominate industries, stifling competition and innovation.
2. Worker Exploitation: The so-called free market often results in the exploitation of workers, with low wages, poor working conditions, and minimal job security. This is why labor unions and worker protections are essential and why many workers turn to government for support.

The Need for Socialism​

Given the trajectory of technological advancement, socialism offers a sustainable alternative:

1. Equitable Distribution: A socialist system can ensure that the benefits of automation and AI are shared equitably across society, rather than concentrated in the hands of a few.
2. Public Ownership: Publicly owned production means that resources and profits can be reinvested into the community, improving infrastructure, healthcare, education, and more.
3. Democratic Planning: Centralized planning does not mean top-down control; it can involve democratic participation from all sectors of society, ensuring that production meets the needs of the people, not just the profits of the few.

Conclusion​

Your argument overlooks the significant role government already plays in propping up the capitalist system and ignores the potential for a more equitable, sustainable system through socialism. As automation and AI continue to evolve, we need to rethink our economic models to ensure they serve the many, not just the few. Capitalism, with its reliance on government support and its failure to address the needs of the entire population, is not the answer. Socialism, with its focus on public ownership, equitable distribution, and democratic planning, offers a viable path forward.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxfyre, your argument conveniently ignores the reality that capitalists frequently rely on government support and intervention to solve their problems and sustain their profits.

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy

Let’s address your points and clarify why a marketless, non-profit, publicly owned, and more democratic system is not only feasible but necessary in the face of advancing automation and AI.

Government Dependence in Capitalism​

You claim that trusting the government has never worked well for the common person, yet history shows that capitalists themselves depend heavily on government support. From bailouts during economic crises to subsidies that sustain industries, government intervention is a cornerstone of modern capitalism. Here are a few examples:

1. Bailouts and Subsidies: During the 2008 financial crisis, massive bailouts were provided to banks and corporations to prevent a complete economic collapse. Companies like General Motors, AIG, and major banks received billions in taxpayer money. The government stepped in to prop up the very system you claim doesn’t need it.
2. Corporate Welfare: Companies across various sectors receive billions in government subsidies. For instance, the fossil fuel industry benefits from significant subsidies to the tune of billions annually, despite being highly profitable. Agriculture, aerospace, and tech industries are also heavily subsidized.
3. Public Services: Capitalists benefit from publicly funded infrastructure, education systems that train their workforce, and research and development often funded by public money. The internet itself was developed through government-funded research.

Automation and the Future of Work​

As automation and AI advance, the traditional model of wage labor is becoming obsolete. Here’s why your reliance on "free market capitalism" to solve this is flawed:

1. No Wage Labor, No Market: Automation reduces the need for human labor, which means fewer people with wages to spend on goods and services. Without consumers, the capitalist model of profit-driven production collapses. The billionaires recognize this and hence support ideas like Universal Basic Income (UBI) to create a customer base.
2. Government as a Solution: Contrary to your claims, the government can and does provide effective solutions. Social Security, Medicare, and public education are all successful programs that have significantly improved the quality of life for millions of Americans.

The Myth of the Free Market​

You romanticize the idea of the "butcher and baker" looking to their own interests, but this nostalgic view overlooks the realities of modern capitalism:

1. Monopolies and Oligopolies: The free market you describe rarely exists. Instead, we see monopolies and oligopolies where a few large corporations dominate industries, stifling competition and innovation.
2. Worker Exploitation: The so-called free market often results in the exploitation of workers, with low wages, poor working conditions, and minimal job security. This is why labor unions and worker protections are essential and why many workers turn to government for support.

The Need for Socialism​

Given the trajectory of technological advancement, socialism offers a sustainable alternative:

1. Equitable Distribution: A socialist system can ensure that the benefits of automation and AI are shared equitably across society, rather than concentrated in the hands of a few.
2. Public Ownership: Publicly owned production means that resources and profits can be reinvested into the community, improving infrastructure, healthcare, education, and more.
3. Democratic Planning: Centralized planning does not mean top-down control; it can involve democratic participation from all sectors of society, ensuring that production meets the needs of the people, not just the profits of the few.

Conclusion​

Your argument overlooks the significant role government already plays in propping up the capitalist system and ignores the potential for a more equitable, sustainable system through socialism. As automation and AI continue to evolve, we need to rethink our economic models to ensure they serve the many, not just the few. Capitalism, with its reliance on government support and its failure to address the needs of the entire population, is not the answer. Socialism, with its focus on public ownership, equitable distribution, and democratic planning, offers a viable path forward.

The $ amounts you show are not subsidies but incentives. Amazon for instance builds its call centers and warehouses and distribution facilities etc. where it can get the best tax breaks and other incentives to put those installations where it does. For instance the state of New Mexico and the City of Los Lunas provided tax and land cost benefits to entice Amazon to build a million square foot facility in that small town of 17,000 population. In return Amazon will provide more than 600 good jobs that in turn will in turn boost other businesses and encourage economic growth. The same kind of deal was given Intel to build a huge facility in Rio Rancho NM that was pretty much no town at all. It now the third largest city in New Mexico.

The jobs require housing and gas stations and super markets and other businesses that spring up to get all that lovely money and the next thing you know you have a thriving community that can afford great city services, hospitals, schools, museums, recreation facilities and other quality of life things.

That is what government can do without costing the tax payers a dime. So we should know the difference between a 'subsidy' that actually pays tax dollars to get somebody to provide a product or service and incentives that encourage economic growth.

 

[Oddball]

Foxfyre, your argument conveniently ignores the reality that capitalists frequently rely on government support and intervention to solve their problems and sustain their profits.

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy

Let’s address your points and clarify why a marketless, non-profit, publicly owned, and more democratic system is not only feasible but necessary in the face of advancing automation and AI.

Government Dependence in Capitalism​

You claim that trusting the government has never worked well for the common person, yet history shows that capitalists themselves depend heavily on government support. From bailouts during economic crises to subsidies that sustain industries, government intervention is a cornerstone of modern capitalism. Here are a few examples:

1. Bailouts and Subsidies: During the 2008 financial crisis, massive bailouts were provided to banks and corporations to prevent a complete economic collapse. Companies like General Motors, AIG, and major banks received billions in taxpayer money. The government stepped in to prop up the very system you claim doesn’t need it.
2. Corporate Welfare: Companies across various sectors receive billions in government subsidies. For instance, the fossil fuel industry benefits from significant subsidies to the tune of billions annually, despite being highly profitable. Agriculture, aerospace, and tech industries are also heavily subsidized.
3. Public Services: Capitalists benefit from publicly funded infrastructure, education systems that train their workforce, and research and development often funded by public money. The internet itself was developed through government-funded research.

Automation and the Future of Work​

As automation and AI advance, the traditional model of wage labor is becoming obsolete. Here’s why your reliance on "free market capitalism" to solve this is flawed:

1. No Wage Labor, No Market: Automation reduces the need for human labor, which means fewer people with wages to spend on goods and services. Without consumers, the capitalist model of profit-driven production collapses. The billionaires recognize this and hence support ideas like Universal Basic Income (UBI) to create a customer base.
2. Government as a Solution: Contrary to your claims, the government can and does provide effective solutions. Social Security, Medicare, and public education are all successful programs that have significantly improved the quality of life for millions of Americans.

The Myth of the Free Market​

You romanticize the idea of the "butcher and baker" looking to their own interests, but this nostalgic view overlooks the realities of modern capitalism:

1. Monopolies and Oligopolies: The free market you describe rarely exists. Instead, we see monopolies and oligopolies where a few large corporations dominate industries, stifling competition and innovation.
2. Worker Exploitation: The so-called free market often results in the exploitation of workers, with low wages, poor working conditions, and minimal job security. This is why labor unions and worker protections are essential and why many workers turn to government for support.

The Need for Socialism​

Given the trajectory of technological advancement, socialism offers a sustainable alternative:

1. Equitable Distribution: A socialist system can ensure that the benefits of automation and AI are shared equitably across society, rather than concentrated in the hands of a few.
2. Public Ownership: Publicly owned production means that resources and profits can be reinvested into the community, improving infrastructure, healthcare, education, and more.
3. Democratic Planning: Centralized planning does not mean top-down control; it can involve democratic participation from all sectors of society, ensuring that production meets the needs of the people, not just the profits of the few.

Conclusion​

Your argument overlooks the significant role government already plays in propping up the capitalist system and ignores the potential for a more equitable, sustainable system through socialism. As automation and AI continue to evolve, we need to rethink our economic models to ensure they serve the many, not just the few. Capitalism, with its reliance on government support and its failure to address the needs of the entire population, is not the answer. Socialism, with its focus on public ownership, equitable distribution, and democratic planning, offers a viable path forward.