Debt is Pushing the US Into Fascism

[georgephillip]

A person who has decided his or her politics has decided her or his religion, georgephillip. Your Jesus would not be choosing capitalism as His economic system.

I don't know if Jesus Christ lived or not, but if he did, he lived as a political dissident:

He died for our debt, not our sins | Michael Hudson

"Jesus was crucified for his views on debt.

"Crucifixion being a punishment reserved especially for political dissidents.

"'To understand the crucifixion of Jesus is to understand it was his punishment for his economic views,' says Professor Hudson. 'He was a threat to the creditors.'

"Jesus Christ was a socialist activist for the continuity of regular debt jubilees that were considered essential to the well-being of ancient economies."

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

 

[22lcidw]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

Part of it is living within ourmeans. And that means cuts in checks and benefits and a drastic reduction of stealing and corruption by any means.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

Part of it is living within ourmeans. And that means cuts in checks and benefits and a drastic reduction of stealing and corruption by any means.

No cuts in medicare or social security, because that is an elder insurance that we paid into.

 

[percysunshine]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

When did you turn from an Atheist into a Preist?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

When did you turn from an Atheist into a Preist?

I have always been the Lord's buddy, percy.

 

[eagle1462010]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

Soo you knew him..........lol

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Because if you fix your car, and sell it, you don't take the extra thousands of dollars of surplus value created by the mechanic that fixed your car, and give it to him. Why? Because you bought the car. You own the car. It's your car. So the value, is yours.

Same is true of a company. The shareholders own the company. Thus they own the value the company creates. Thus if they want to hire a board of directors, it's their money to do with as they please.

Cars are not shares in a corporation.
Most car owners are not expecting to profit on the sale of a used car in the same way shareholders expect to sell their shares in a corporation for more than they paid for them.

You're also conflating "surplus value" with "value added."
Your mechanic's contribution adds no new value to your car beyond her own labor cost and certainly contributes no profit to your transaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value#:~:text=Hence%2C%20Marx's%20use%20of%20Mehrwert,profit%20when%20products%20are%20sold.

"Marx uses the term Mehrwert to describe the yield, profit or return on production capital invested, i.e. the amount of the increase in the value of capital.

"Hence, Marx's use of Mehrwert has always been translated as 'surplus value', distinguishing it from 'value-added'

"According to Marx's theory, surplus value is equal to the new value created by workers in excess of their own labor-cost, which is appropriated by the capitalist as profit when products are sold.[1] "

You're also conflating "surplus value" with "value added."
Your mechanic's contribution adds no new value to your car beyond her own labor cost and certainly contributes no profit to your transaction.

How are they different?

Surplus value: is the difference between the amount raised through a sale of a product and the amount it cost to the owner of that product to manufacture it: i.e. the amount raised through sale of the product minus the cost of the materials, plant and labour power.

Value added: In business, the difference between the sale price and the production cost of a product is the unit profit. In economics, the sum of the unit profit, the unit depreciation cost, and the unit labor cost is the unit value added.

"According to Marx's theory, surplus value is equal to the new value created by workers in excess of their own labor-cost, which is appropriated by the capitalist as profit when products are sold.

appropriate: take (something) for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission

Nope. Labor doesn't own any of the value created. The capitalist owns it.
He bought the equipment, raw materials and factory. All he owes labor is a wage.

 

[georgephillip]

Yeah, but that's not going to change. You are basically complaining that all human beings, are acting like all human beings.

I've made many mistakes including trying to evade income taxes on a level of earnings that never exceeded $20,000 a year and often amounted to less than half that amount.

Anyone who condemns my crimes while supporting parasites like Trump, for example, are hypocrites or worse.

"IRS audits of taxpayers reporting more than $1 million in income.

"'With the money that these tax cheats owe, this year alone, we could fund tuition-free college for all, eliminate child hunger, ensure clean drinking water for every American household, build half a million affordable housing units, provide masks to all, produce the protective gear and medical supplies our health workers need to combat this pandemic, and fully fund the U.S. Postal Service,' said Senator Bernie Sanders, who requested the CBO study. 'That is an absolute outrage, and this report should make us take a long, hard look at what our national priorities are all about.'"

The 1 Percent Are Cheating Us Out of a Quarter-Trillion Dollars in Taxes Every Year

 

[georgephillip]

The reasons Ronald Reagan became a Republican, and stopped being a Democrat (among many reasons), was because he lived out the reality of taxes.

When he worked in Hollywood as an actor, the tax rates were up at 70% or close. The result was, Reagan intentionally setup his work year to work around the taxes. So he would work the last six months of one year, and the first six month of the next.

Ronald Reagan was earning $3000 a week during the Great Depression and World War 2 which he avoided like Trump dodged Vietnam.

Massive tax cuts begun by Reagan and enhanced by Bush and Trump have transferred $50 trillion from the homes and pockets of working people into Wall Street and the foreign bank accounts of the billionaire class since 1980. As a result there are half as many Americans currently in the middle class today as there were when the Gipper came to DC.

The 1 Percent Are Cheating Us Out of a Quarter-Trillion Dollars in Taxes Every Year

 

[georgephillip]

Greece tried your system. They jacked up taxes on everyone, and the result was people simply moved their wealth out of Greece, and they had the crash.

Greece had no sovereign currency.
The Greek economy suffered the longest recession of any advanced capitalist economy to date including the Great Depression's effects on the US. You should blame Wall Street and the EU for the economic disasters that have befallen Greece.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Greece was far more Trumpian than Obaman

 

[georgephillip]

American society has been entertaining fascism since 1913. Fascism, communalism, socialism, anarchism, etc, all lead to the parent "statist left" religion. No matter the title if it leads to totalitarianism it's statist left no matter what one wants to call it.

There's nothing "left" about fascism; it is hardcore right-wing violence used to undermine democratic governments and increase the power of those who "own" the means of production.

Richard D. Wolff - The U.S. Is Borrowing Its Way to Fascism | Brave New Europe

“Fascism merges private capitalism and the state. Political power then enforces capitalism’s basic rules: the economic dominance of the major shareholders and their top directors and managers."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The reasons Ronald Reagan became a Republican, and stopped being a Democrat (among many reasons), was because he lived out the reality of taxes.

When he worked in Hollywood as an actor, the tax rates were up at 70% or close. The result was, Reagan intentionally setup his work year to work around the taxes. So he would work the last six months of one year, and the first six month of the next.

Ronald Reagan was earning $3000 a week during the Great Depression and World War 2 which he avoided like Trump dodged Vietnam.

Massive tax cuts begun by Reagan and enhanced by Bush and Trump have transferred $50 trillion from the homes and pockets of working people into Wall Street and the foreign bank accounts of the billionaire class since 1980. As a result there are half as many Americans currently in the middle class today as there were when the Gipper came to DC.

The 1 Percent Are Cheating Us Out of a Quarter-Trillion Dollars in Taxes Every Year

Massive tax cuts begun by Reagan and enhanced by Bush and Trump have transferred $50 trillion from the homes and pockets of working people into Wall Street and the foreign bank accounts of the billionaire class since 1980.

DURR

 

[georgephillip]

Further, "investing for charity and investing for a luxurious lifestyle"

That comment makes no logical sense.

Your life style has nothing to do with investments.

Suppose you have an income of one million dollars.
You donate half to legitimate charity.
You pay 40% of the remaining half in federal and state income taxes
You have $25,000 a month remaining.
You have prioritized charity over luxury with your investing.

 

[georgephillip]

However, one thing you need to consider, is that no charity anywhere could ever exist, without for-profit investments.

If no one anywhere, anywhere.... is making a profit.... where do you think the charity is coming from?

So investments, are inherently for profit. You can't "invest" in charity. That's not even logical.

Charity existed long before profit came into existence.
For 90% of human history, individuals who attempted to amass a private surplus were banned from society instead of being worshiped for their greed.
I can commit money in order to earn financial returns that are used to lift hundreds out of homelessness instead of spending those returns on luxury goods.

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah, but that's not going to change. You are basically complaining that all human beings, are acting like all human beings.

I've made many mistakes including trying to evade income taxes on a level of earnings that never exceeded $20,000 a year and often amounted to less than half that amount.

Anyone who condemns my crimes while supporting parasites like Trump, for example, are hypocrites or worse.

"IRS audits of taxpayers reporting more than $1 million in income.

"'With the money that these tax cheats owe, this year alone, we could fund tuition-free college for all, eliminate child hunger, ensure clean drinking water for every American household, build half a million affordable housing units, provide masks to all, produce the protective gear and medical supplies our health workers need to combat this pandemic, and fully fund the U.S. Postal Service,' said Senator Bernie Sanders, who requested the CBO study. 'That is an absolute outrage, and this report should make us take a long, hard look at what our national priorities are all about.'"

The 1 Percent Are Cheating Us Out of a Quarter-Trillion Dollars in Taxes Every Year

I personally was audited, and owed nothing after the audit. Turns out, I had my numbers right.

"With the money that these tax cheats owe"

How do you know they owe anything?

Moreover, why would I want to provide free schooling to people? I had to work for my schooling. Why should other people get schooling for free?

"and fully fund the U.S. Postal Service"

The USPS is a garbage service, that has costed the tax payers billions of dollars every year, and is terrible. Absolutely terrible. You get better service from DHL, UPS, and Fedex, than you do from the USPS.

Why would I want to take productive money from companies that provide jobs and services and products that make the country wealthy, and give it to one of the worst run organizations in this country?

"produce the protective gear and medical supplies our health workers need to combat this pandemic"

Our medical staff is well paid, and well equipped, and the pandemic is a joke. At this point, the death rate is lower than that of the flu. We don't need to destroy the economy, to fund stupidity.

eliminate child hunger, ensure clean drinking water for every American household

There isn't a clean drinking water crisis. You can go to virtually anywhere in the entire nation, and get plenty of clean drinking water.

We have a child obesity problem. Child hunger is a joke.

All your post did, was prove what an idiot Sanders is.

 

[Andylusion]

The reasons Ronald Reagan became a Republican, and stopped being a Democrat (among many reasons), was because he lived out the reality of taxes.

When he worked in Hollywood as an actor, the tax rates were up at 70% or close. The result was, Reagan intentionally setup his work year to work around the taxes. So he would work the last six months of one year, and the first six month of the next.

Ronald Reagan was earning $3000 a week during the Great Depression and World War 2 which he avoided like Trump dodged Vietnam.

Massive tax cuts begun by Reagan and enhanced by Bush and Trump have transferred $50 trillion from the homes and pockets of working people into Wall Street and the foreign bank accounts of the billionaire class since 1980. As a result there are half as many Americans currently in the middle class today as there were when the Gipper came to DC.

The 1 Percent Are Cheating Us Out of a Quarter-Trillion Dollars in Taxes Every Year

Massive tax cuts begun by Reagan and enhanced by Bush and Trump have transferred $50 trillion from the homes and pockets of working people into Wall Street and the foreign bank accounts of the billionaire class since 1980. As a result there are half as many Americans currently in the middle class today as there were when the Gipper came to DC.

Couple of things. First, there was no transfer of money from working people to Wall Street.

Never happened. Name one worker anywhere, that had his bank account confiscated by Wall Street.

You earn the wage you work for. If you agree to work for whatever money, and I pay you the agreed wage.... no one is taking anything from you.

Second, I like how your own list of "tax havens" includes those Nordic countries that Bernie Sanders says he wants the US to be like.

Really? So you want to cut taxes? Finally something we both agree on.

 

[Andylusion]

Greece tried your system. They jacked up taxes on everyone, and the result was people simply moved their wealth out of Greece, and they had the crash.

Greece had no sovereign currency.
The Greek economy suffered the longest recession of any advanced capitalist economy to date including the Great Depression's effects on the US. You should blame Wall Street and the EU for the economic disasters that have befallen Greece.

Impossible. Because Germany didn't have a Sovereign currency, nor France, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, or Finland and a dozen others.

If you are telling me that the only reason for the Greek crash was the lack of a Sovereign currency, then why didn't all those others have similar crashes?

Moreover, Greece engaged in massive public spending, such as mass transit, and was run by left-wing socialists. This includes pensions, education, and health care.

Greece is the perfect example of left-wing ideology following it's logical conclusion.

There is no possible way for you to logically blame 'capitalism' or 'wall street' for Greece's melt down. None.

Lastly, by the way... Greece could have, if they had chosen to, left the EU, and adopted their own currency again. At one point, Germany almost pushed them out of the EU, but Greece worked hard to avoid that.

If the problem, according to you, was the lack of a sovereign currency, then why didn't Greece voluntarily leave the EU and get their own currency? Because that wasn't the problem, and it would have made things many times worse.

 

[22lcidw]

Jesus would not live or die for anyone's debt.

Part of it is living within ourmeans. And that means cuts in checks and benefits and a drastic reduction of stealing and corruption by any means.

No cuts in medicare or social security, because that is an elder insurance that we paid into.

I agree with you. But if there is a reality to the political class, they will eventually do something if it fits the argument. They can do it just by not having COLA increases in the Social Security side letting inflation eat at the checks the elderly receive. They can limit the amount of medical treatment through an individual expense account that runs out after so much usage. And they can use psychology to make the elderly feel patriotic while living with this.