Debt is Pushing the US Into Fascism

Andylusion

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Why won't you answer my question?
Is it because you're a pussy?
If Greedy Jeff paid a living wage, his employees wouldn't need public assistance or another job; get it?
Is it my responsibility to pay your bills? Or is it your responsibility?

You realize, that Greedy Jeff, could if he wanted to, close Amazon down, take all his money and move to island somewhere, and never hire another person for the rest of his life, and live in luxury until he dies.

Would that be better for all those people who have a paying job, to earn zero, and in poverty and government assistance?

Would they be better off?

If the answer is no, then what are you complaining about?
 

Andylusion

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We should definitely take advice from the least productive among us. DURR
"Apologists for capitalism say we owe nothing to each other just because we are members of society. The basic norm of capitalist society is self-sufficiency."

Capitalism is Organized Crime
That's not what we say. That's fact. Your existence, doesn't mean I owe you some of my labor.
Moreover, the claim that we owe each other, doesn't work. Never has. Any society built on that concept has ended in ruins.
 
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georgephillip

georgephillip

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Beside... even if.... and it's not true, but let's say IF you assumed that tax payers created the internet....

He still created a company, and built it.

HE did that. Not you. Not me. He did. Not government. He did.
Bezos built Amazon with the help of a $300,000 loan from his parents, and his stock today would be worth considerably less without the Internet.

He may have written Amazon's business plan on a cross country drive in 1994 and worked many long hours in his garage to launch his firm, but much of his success was due to Internet growth overtaking competition from larger booksellers.

Today Amazon would not succeed at all without its 800,000 employees who are morally entitled to at least 90% of Jeff's wealth' think he could manage on a mere $18 billion?

Jeff Bezos - Wikipedia
 
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georgephillip

georgephillip

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Can we say that your home, is really owned by society? Granted I never spent a single penny building your home. And neither did government likely....
The government mandated retrofitting that makes my one hundred year-old apartment building safe to live in.

25 years ago when I moved into this neighborhood, apartments like mine rented for $375 a month; today they rent for $1300 and rising. This increase is also due to government policies and regulations.
 

Andylusion

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Beside... even if.... and it's not true, but let's say IF you assumed that tax payers created the internet....

He still created a company, and built it.

HE did that. Not you. Not me. He did. Not government. He did.
Bezos built Amazon with the help of a $300,000 loan from his parents, and his stock today would be worth considerably less without the Internet.

He may have written Amazon's business plan on a cross country drive in 1994 and worked many long hours in his garage to launch his firm, but much of his success was due to Internet growth overtaking competition from larger booksellers.

Today Amazon would not succeed at all without its 800,000 employees who are morally entitled to at least 90% of Jeff's wealth' think he could manage on a mere $18 billion?
So what?

Your job, whatever job you made a living off of.... wouldn't exist without someone having invested in its creation.

So what?

With or without the internet, doesn't matter. Fact is, it does exist, with the internet, and every single time people make a purchase through Amazon, it justifies why
Can we say that your home, is really owned by society? Granted I never spent a single penny building your home. And neither did government likely....
The government mandated retrofitting that makes my one hundred year-old apartment building safe to live in.

25 years ago when I moved into this neighborhood, apartments like mine rented for $375 a month; today they rent for $1300 and rising. This increase is also due to government policies and regulations.
No. So the government mandate did not make your apartment safe to live in.

How do I know this?

Because there are buildings in NYC right now, that have mandates... and are completely empty, and unfit to live in.

The mandates do nothing. You can mandate whatever you want, that doesn't make it exist.

What made your apartment retrofit exist, was private people investing money, into a profitable business, such as renting apartments.

In fact, even if you have government funded retrofitting, which rarely happens.... but if it does....

You realize that even then, it's the people making profits that pay the tax, that allows the government spending to happen.

Either way, you owe everything you have, to profit oriented people.
 

Andylusion

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Beside... even if.... and it's not true, but let's say IF you assumed that tax payers created the internet....

He still created a company, and built it.

HE did that. Not you. Not me. He did. Not government. He did.
Bezos built Amazon with the help of a $300,000 loan from his parents, and his stock today would be worth considerably less without the Internet.

He may have written Amazon's business plan on a cross country drive in 1994 and worked many long hours in his garage to launch his firm, but much of his success was due to Internet growth overtaking competition from larger booksellers.

Today Amazon would not succeed at all without its 800,000 employees who are morally entitled to at least 90% of Jeff's wealth' think he could manage on a mere $18 billion?
So what?

Your job, whatever job you made a living off of.... wouldn't exist without someone having invested in its creation.

So what?

With or without the internet, doesn't matter. Fact is, it does exist, with the internet, and every single time people make a purchase through Amazon, it justifies why Bezo makes the big money.

Every single purchase, is people saying Bezo has created a service that they find value in.

Doesn't matter what you think he could manage on.

YOU... you could manage to live on much less, and give more of your money to charity.
 
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georgephillip

georgephillip

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But it never happens. There is no example anywhere in all human history, where this actually happens. There is no example where any country ever taxed and spent themselves into prosperity
You have that exactly backwards: spend then tax.
Monetary sovereigns do not require taxes or bonds to spend on programs and investments.
For example government could fund programs like this
1600468391379.jpeg

without raising taxes on 99% of Americans or fattening the bottom lines of major Wall Street banks.

PERI - Climate Crisis and the Global Green New Deal
 

Andylusion

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But it never happens. There is no example anywhere in all human history, where this actually happens. There is no example where any country ever taxed and spent themselves into prosperity
You have that exactly backwards: spend then tax.
Monetary sovereigns do not require taxes or bonds to spend on programs and investments.
For example government could fund programs like this
View attachment 390341
without raising taxes on 99% of Americans or fattening the bottom lines of major Wall Street banks.

PERI - Climate Crisis and the Global Green New Deal
Ok, well... I don't know what to tell you, because the facts contradict you. Zimbabwe tried that. Germany tried it. Argentina tried it. Venezuela tried it. Numerous places tried what you claim... and the bottom line is... it doesn't work.
 
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georgephillip

georgephillip

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But you haven't had a logical argument yet, and you refused to answer his questions.

How is he the useless one, when you can't answer simple questions?
His questions are rhetorical, at best, and, aside from technology-related issues, nothing you've posted gives me reason to believe you have the slightest conception of logical arguments.

Logical Arguments
 

Toddsterpatriot

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Toddsterpatriot

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But it never happens. There is no example anywhere in all human history, where this actually happens. There is no example where any country ever taxed and spent themselves into prosperity
You have that exactly backwards: spend then tax.
Monetary sovereigns do not require taxes or bonds to spend on programs and investments.
For example government could fund programs like this
View attachment 390341
without raising taxes on 99% of Americans or fattening the bottom lines of major Wall Street banks.

PERI - Climate Crisis and the Global Green New Deal
For example government could fund programs like this

But that would be a stupid waste of time and money. So.....no.
 
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georgephillip

georgephillip

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Yeah, lots of garbage there. False claims, that are never actually proven.
You're missing the connection between robber barons and organized crime?

I guess you're ignorant of capitalism, as well:omg:


robber baron | Definition, Significance, & Captains of Industry

"Robber baron, pejorative term for one of the powerful 19th-century American industrialists and financiers who made fortunes by monopolizing huge industries through the formation of trusts, engaging in unethical business practices, exploiting workers, and paying little heed to their customers or competition.

"Alternatively, those who credit the explosive growth of American capitalism during this period to the indefatigable pursuit of success and material wealth are likely to celebrate these entrepreneurial tycoons as 'captains of industry.'

"Among the sectors in which they compiled their great wealth were the oil, steel, liquor, cotton, textile, and tobacco industries, railroads, and banks.

It has been argued that these capitalist pioneers were the 'antecedents' of the organized crime that emerged in the United States during the Prohibition era (1920–33).

"The robber barons transformed the wealth of the American frontier into vast financial empires, amassing their fortunes by monopolizing essential industries.

"In turn, these monopolies were built upon the liberal use of tactics that are today the hallmark of organized crime: intimidation, violence, corruption, conspiracies, and fraud."
 
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georgephillip

georgephillip

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First, I don't agree with the idea that taking money from someone who supports you, is "selling out".

Selling out, is when you change a position for money.
Selling out is also when you promise "Hope and Change", take $900,000 from a "Vampire Squid", and then refuse to prosecute key individuals at GS for their role in inflicting the Great Recession on America and the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_controversies#Role_in_the_financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008

"Goldman has been harshly criticized, particularly in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2007–2008, where some alleged that it misled its investors and profited from the collapse of the mortgage market.

"That time — 'one of the darkest chapters' in Goldman's history according to The New York Times[2] — brought investigations from the United States Congress, the United States Department of Justice, and a lawsuit from the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission[3] that resulted in Goldman paying a $550 million settlement."
 

Andylusion

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There is no such thing as wage theft.

You are just making up stuff that doesn't exist.
Or perhaps you're not as well informed as you think you are?

Wage Theft vs. Other Forms of Theft in the U.S. | Tompkins County Workers' Center
The researchers estimated that the average loss per worker over the course of a year was $2,634, out of total earnings of $17,616. The total annual wage theft from front-line workers in low-wage industries in the three cities approached $3 billion. If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.

"Estimate"... "generalizable".

How about you provide some actual proof? Crazy concept, that you prove an accusation before assuming guilt.

Now that said....

I think you know that you completely shifted the goal post. You have been posting throughout this thread, about "surplus value" as being wage theft.

Now you are trying to talk about actual employers simply not paying employees.

Ok.... so there's my issue with that.

So many years ago, all the way back to my years in high school.... I had a specific employer who decided to not pay me.

So after waiting a week for a pay check, I went to the manager, who directed me to the owner, who directed me to the manager.

The following day..... I didn't show up for work. You don't pay me, I don't work. That's how that works.

Similarly, I had another company that wasn't paying me enough, and I did the same thing. If the pay isn't enough, for how much time I'm putting in.... then I don't put in any time.

Now my problem isn't that there are exceptionally rare instances where people are not paid. I'm sure there are.

And we have laws for that. This is why Chipotle got sued, and lost, and paid tons of money.

We have a system for dealing with it.

Additionally, the real solution is, if your employer is not paying the cash you deserve... quit. Find another job.

If every single person that had an actual injustice done to them, quit their job, and got another job... just like I have done multiple times... this would not happen.
 
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Andylusion

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Yeah, lots of garbage there. False claims, that are never actually proven.
You're missing the connection between robber barons and organized crime?

I guess you're ignorant of capitalism, as well:omg:


robber baron | Definition, Significance, & Captains of Industry

"Robber baron, pejorative term for one of the powerful 19th-century American industrialists and financiers who made fortunes by monopolizing huge industries through the formation of trusts, engaging in unethical business practices, exploiting workers, and paying little heed to their customers or competition.

"Alternatively, those who credit the explosive growth of American capitalism during this period to the indefatigable pursuit of success and material wealth are likely to celebrate these entrepreneurial tycoons as 'captains of industry.'

"Among the sectors in which they compiled their great wealth were the oil, steel, liquor, cotton, textile, and tobacco industries, railroads, and banks.

It has been argued that these capitalist pioneers were the 'antecedents' of the organized crime that emerged in the United States during the Prohibition era (1920–33).

"The robber barons transformed the wealth of the American frontier into vast financial empires, amassing their fortunes by monopolizing essential industries.

"In turn, these monopolies were built upon the liberal use of tactics that are today the hallmark of organized crime: intimidation, violence, corruption, conspiracies, and fraud."
"Robber baron, pejorative term for one of the powerful 19th-century American industrialists and financiers who made fortunes by monopolizing huge industries through the formation of trusts, engaging in unethical business practices, exploiting workers, and paying little heed to their customers or competition.

It's just not true.

It's that simple. Lots of claims, zero real evidence of this.
 

Andylusion

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First, I don't agree with the idea that taking money from someone who supports you, is "selling out".

Selling out, is when you change a position for money.
Selling out is also when you promise "Hope and Change", take $900,000 from a "Vampire Squid", and then refuse to prosecute key individuals at GS for their role in inflicting the Great Recession on America and the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_controversies#Role_in_the_financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008

"Goldman has been harshly criticized, particularly in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2007–2008, where some alleged that it misled its investors and profited from the collapse of the mortgage market.

"That time — 'one of the darkest chapters' in Goldman's history according to The New York Times[2] — brought investigations from the United States Congress, the United States Department of Justice, and a lawsuit from the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission[3] that resulted in Goldman paying a $550 million settlement."
What does that have to do with anything?

That has nothing to do with someone being a sell out. Nothing. You made a claim. Now you can't back the claim.
 
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georgephillip

georgephillip

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Obama vowed to 'fundamentally change' the United States and did everything he could to do so. The SOB was tutored by Communist Frank Marshall Davis,
What makes you think anyone who opposed Jim Crow segregation was a communist?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...frank-marshall-davis-obamas-communist-mentor/

"The House Committee on Un-American Activities was well aware of Davis by the late 1940s.

"Davis’s last identification as a Communist Party member was in 1952, and he stopped being active with the Hawaii Civil Rights Congress in 1956, the file says.

"When Davis took the Fifth Amendment in front of the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee in 1956, agents were suspicious.

"So the FBI continued to track him into the 1960s and did not officially remove him from the Security Index until 1963."
 

easyt65

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Obama vowed to 'fundamentally change' the United States and did everything he could to do so. The SOB was tutored by Communist Frank Marshall Davis,
What makes you think anyone who opposed Jim Crow segregation was a communist?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...frank-marshall-davis-obamas-communist-mentor/

"The House Committee on Un-American Activities was well aware of Davis by the late 1940s.

"Davis’s last identification as a Communist Party member was in 1952, and he stopped being active with the Hawaii Civil Rights Congress in 1956, the file says.

"When Davis took the Fifth Amendment in front of the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee in 1956, agents were suspicious.

"So the FBI continued to track him into the 1960s and did not officially remove him from the Security Index until 1963."
So Davis wasn't an ACTIVE communist. He was still a communist....and he tutored Barry.

Democrats are the party of Jim Crowe...the KKK, segregation, policies of economic slavery....
 

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