Deadly Day for our Military

[Ridgerunner]

Everyone please take a minute and honor those that were lost today.

Pilot killed after Navy Blue Angels jet crashes in Tennessee

3 dead, 3 injured, 6 missing after flood sweeps Army truck

 

[Divine Wind]

Condolences to the families.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yeah, we would have also lost an Air Force pilot had he not been able to safely eject today as well.

Yep, really not a good day for the military. I especially feel bad about the troops that were trying to save the flood victims. Matter of fact, in the mid 80's, I did something like that in Millington TN on Christmas day. The whole town flooded and I volunteered to help pull people out (was single and didn't have anything else to do that day), and because of it, I was sent out TAD to the city for a week.

I can see what's going to happen with both the Navy and the Air Force for the next week. It's gonna be aviation safety standdown for both services. Losing both an F-16 and an FA-18 in the same day is strange as all get out too. Especially when you consider that the FA-18 was a Blue Angel and the F-16 was a Thunderbird.

 

[depotoo]

May they RIP

Both planes were F-16's, the ones they have been scrounging parts for. Wonder if that attributed to either crash?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I guess pbo was at the graduation ceremony in Colorado Springs. Hope he does right by those who gave all.

 

[ABikerSailor]

May they RIP

Both planes were F-16's, the ones they have been scrounging parts for. Wonder if that attributed to either crash?

Actually, no. One plane that was flying over the Air Force graduation today was an F-16 Thunderbird pilot. The other plane that crashed, killing the pilot was a Blue Angel (and the Navy doesn't fly F-16's, they fly FA-18's), who was practicing for an air show.

The difference is that F-16's are smaller and have a single tail, whereas the FA-18 is a split tail aircraft that is a bit bigger. And, like I said, the Air Force flys F-16's, the Navy doesn't, they fly FA-18's.

Trust me..................I was in the Navy for 20 years. And, if you check the reports, you'd see that it was two different aircraft.

And no.......................the Navy would never short change maintenance on the Blue Angels, nor would the Air Force skimp on the Thunderbirds. Those are the 2 premier flight teams of each service.

 

[Divine Wind]

May they RIP

Both planes were F-16's, the ones they have been scrounging parts for. Wonder if that attributed to either crash?

T-Birds and Blue Angels are very well maintained. Rare but it happens.

 

[ABikerSailor]

May they RIP

Both planes were F-16's, the ones they have been scrounging parts for. Wonder if that attributed to either crash?

T-Birds and Blue Angels are very well maintained. Rare but it happens.

Not only that, but the only people allowed into the Blue Angels (and I would suppose the same applies for the Thunderbirds), are pilots and maintenance personnel who are in the top 1 percent of their field. After volunteering to be a part of them, you have to go through several screenings (one of which is in person with squadron personnel), as well as have an exemplary service record.

I know, we had a couple of people in our squadron volunteer for them, and I had to work up the screenings and messages to get them in.

Nope, squadrons like that have only the best personnel, and their budget is pretty well endowed as well.

 

[william the wie]

The F-16 pilot could not honorably eject at least according to the tape shown on local news, The foreground was a kid inside a fence and a house was behind.I was a sweep sailor so I know zip about aircraft how come something like auto airbags and crash ejection system can't be developed?

 

[Divine Wind]

The F-16 pilot could not honorably eject at least according to the tape shown on local news, The foreground was a kid inside a fence and a house was behind.I was a sweep sailor so I know zip about aircraft how come something like auto airbags and crash ejection system can't be developed?

Physics: F = MA

It's one thing to have an airbag for a car going 55MPH, it's another to have one for a vehicle going 3 times that speed at rotation (lift off speed) much less cruise speed which is 10 times as fast.

The jet guys have a saying "Know when to go and then go". At those speeds (and due to the limitations of the ejection envelope) people don't have a lot, if any, time to think. They can only react to a pre-discussed/thought about scenarios. In this case, it was what appears to be an engine failure on take-off, which is why the aircraft is fairly intact since it didn't make very far off the ground and simply skidded straight ahead until it stopped.

Off hand, I can't fault the pilot for ejecting. Too many have died waiting too long or trying to save an aircraft that can't be saved.

 

[william the wie]

The F-16 pilot could not honorably eject at least according to the tape shown on local news, The foreground was a kid inside a fence and a house was behind.I was a sweep sailor so I know zip about aircraft how come something like auto airbags and crash ejection system can't be developed?

Physics: F = MA

It's one thing to have an airbag for a car going 55MPH, it's another to have one for a vehicle going 3 times that speed at rotation (lift off speed) much less cruise speed which is 10 times as fast.

The jet guys have a saying "Know when to go and then go". At those speeds (and due to the limitations of the ejection envelope) people don't have a lot, if any, time to think. They can only react to a pre-discussed/thought about scenarios. In this case, it was what appears to be an engine failure on take-off, which is why the aircraft is fairly intact since it didn't make very far off the ground and simply skidded straight ahead until it stopped.

Off hand, I can't fault the pilot for ejecting. Too many have died waiting too long or trying to save an aircraft that can't be saved.

Thank you.

 

[Divine Wind]

Thank you.

Helicopter crews don't carry parachutes for several reasons, not the least of which is that passengers would object to the crew leaving a dying aircraft.

Another reason is the rotor blades since anyone stepping outside is probably going to meet up with one or all. At one time some bright engineering type at Pax River suggested explosive bolts at the rotor hub. Centrifugal force would sling the blades away and a crew could safely bail out. The groundpounders quickly voiced an opinion equivalent to "No fucking way are we riding on any helicopter where the crew can blow the rotor blades off and leave us behind". For that (and weight) reason(s) the system was never installed.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Thank you.

Helicopter crews don't carry parachutes for several reasons, not the least of which is that passengers would object to the crew leaving a dying aircraft.

Another reason is the rotor blades since anyone stepping outside is probably going to meet up with one or all. At one time some bright engineering type at Pax River suggested explosive bolts at the rotor hub. Centrifugal force would sling the blades away and a crew could safely bail out. The groundpounders quickly voiced an opinion equivalent to "No fucking way are we riding on any helicopter where the crew can blow the rotor blades off and leave us behind". For that (and weight) reason(s) the system was never installed.

I had the opportunity to do some NOE flying while stationed in FROG and I remember wishing I had a parachute. Warrant Officers were absolutely freaking nuts...

 

[ABikerSailor]

As I learned from fixed wing fighter pilots......................

"Helicopters don't fly, the Earth rejects them".

 

[Ridgerunner]

Update


News from The Associated Press

 

[Divine Wind]

As I learned from fixed wing fighter pilots......................

"Helicopters don't fly, the Earth rejects them".

Alternatively "Helicopters don't fly, they beat the air into submission!"

A classic from pilot (and news reporter) Harry Reasoner:

Flights & Fancy: Brooders vs. Extroverts | Flight Today | Air & Space Magazine
The thing is, helicopters are different from airplanes. An airplane by its nature wants to fly and, if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in the delicate balance, the helicopter stops flying, immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter.

This is why a helicopter pilot is so different a being from an airplane pilot, and why in general, airplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts, and helicopter pilots are brooders, introspective anticipators of trouble. They know if anything bad has not happened, it is about to.

Harry Reasoner
Approach magazine, November 1973

Follow us: @AirSpaceMag on Twitter

 

[whitehall]

They had to haul a bunch of Soldiers off a snowy mountain in Colorado but at least they got off safely. Didn't the Army get the word "turn around don't drown"?

 

[ABikerSailor]

They had to haul a bunch of Soldiers off a snowy mountain in Colorado but at least they got off safely. Didn't the Army get the word "turn around don't drown"?

You know...................I'm kind of wondering the same thing myself. Yes, I understand that the driver knew they had a machine that was capable of doing a lot of work, and getting them there safely.

I also know that the driver should have been trained as to which terrain was safe to cross and which wasn't.

Apparently, they read the stream wrong and paid a very high price.

Dunno.....................Whitehall, do you know what the standards are for crossing over moving water? Do you know what the standards are for getting soldiers off of a snowy mountain in Colorado?

By the way.................how many years and in what service did you do your time in? Me? I did 20 years in the Navy and am now retired.

If you didn't serve, don't second guess the driver.

 

[whitehall]

They had to haul a bunch of Soldiers off a snowy mountain in Colorado but at least they got off safely. Didn't the Army get the word "turn around don't drown"?

You know...................I'm kind of wondering the same thing myself. Yes, I understand that the driver knew they had a machine that was capable of doing a lot of work, and getting them there safely.

I also know that the driver should have been trained as to which terrain was safe to cross and which wasn't.

Apparently, they read the stream wrong and paid a very high price.

Dunno.....................Whitehall, do you know what the standards are for crossing over moving water? Do you know what the standards are for getting soldiers off of a snowy mountain in Colorado?

By the way.................how many years and in what service did you do your time in? Me? I did 20 years in the Navy and am now retired.

If you didn't serve, don't second guess the driver.

I did three years in the Marines. If you ever watched the weather channel you would hear "turn around don't drown" a hundred times. Wouldn't you think the Army would teach their drivers the same thing? Maybe some 2nd Lt. is taking the rap as we speak. I kind of think it's embarrassing for the Army to call for help from civilians when they get stuck on a mountain during training but that's just me.

 

[ABikerSailor]

They had to haul a bunch of Soldiers off a snowy mountain in Colorado but at least they got off safely. Didn't the Army get the word "turn around don't drown"?

You know...................I'm kind of wondering the same thing myself. Yes, I understand that the driver knew they had a machine that was capable of doing a lot of work, and getting them there safely.

I also know that the driver should have been trained as to which terrain was safe to cross and which wasn't.

Apparently, they read the stream wrong and paid a very high price.

Dunno.....................Whitehall, do you know what the standards are for crossing over moving water? Do you know what the standards are for getting soldiers off of a snowy mountain in Colorado?

By the way.................how many years and in what service did you do your time in? Me? I did 20 years in the Navy and am now retired.

If you didn't serve, don't second guess the driver.

I did three years in the Marines. If you ever watched the weather channel you would hear "turn around don't drown" a hundred times. Wouldn't you think the Army would teach their drivers the same thing? Maybe some 2nd Lt. is taking the rap as we speak. I kind of think it's embarrassing for the Army to call for help from civilians when they get stuck on a mountain during training but that's just me.

Yes, I have heard the term "turn around, don't drown", but I'm guessing that the vehicles that the Army uses are capable of fording streams that go up to at least the axles, as well as are heavy enough to avoid being swept away. They aren't driving 2,000 lb cars, they are driving vehicles that are significantly heavier and more powerful than that.

And...........I'm pretty sure the drivers are trained in what is fordable and what isn't, which is why I think the driver might have misread the stream.

And no...........I don't find it embarrassing for the Army to get help from civilians. It's a training exercise, and you're not supposed to die during training, so yeah, using all available means to try to keep them alive is okay in my book.