Could someone who is calling to "Free Palestine" explain what that realistically looks like?

[rosends]

You're right, it will probably never happen.

Especially after the latest incident where the IDF kidnapped unarmed aid worker on International waters to be tortured and gang raped.

you aren't buiying that fltilla stuff, are you? Even though there is all sorts of video to show that nothing like that happened?

Are you protesting against Spain? No, you aren't.

Of course, none of this is relevant to your claim about the supposed peace in 1945.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

The Palestinian Authority pays the families of martyrs and terrorists instead of spending that money on schools, hospitals, and other things to improve their lives.

Ok. Well can you speak about the settlers violently attacking Palestinians, destroying crops and killing livestock?

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

First of all, "The West Bank" is its colonial name. That is what the British called it. Its indigenous name is Judea and Samaria. So when you call it "The West Bank", you're just perpetuating colonialism. That's how ridiculous you sound.

Secondly, there were 30,000 Jews who lived in Judea, Samaria, and East Jerusalem in 1947, then by 1949 there were zero. Every single Jew was driven out of homes they had been living in for generations. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that?

Thirdly, the reason Israel turns a blind eye to what's happening in Judea and Samaria is because the Palestinian Authority pays the families of martyrs and murderers. It's the only way the Palestinian Authority has been able to govern...not because of Israel, but because Abbass hasn't governed at all, just enriched himself, and has not held democratic elections in 20 years. What are your thoughts on that?

How does that answer for the violence committed against Palestinian families who have resided there since the Ottoman Empire?
Is it right for violent Jews to just raid an area and violently assault Palestinians?

 

[Shusha]

You mean kinda like the Jews have been doing for the past 80 years?

I think it is important to understand the lie that you are selling here. The lie is in the conflation between private individuals and collective sovereignty. When an Empire or State renounces all claims to a territory, the territory does not "pass" to individuals. It isn't an inheritance. What your first map shows is land privately owned by Jews. That map then assigns all other land in the territory as "belonging" to Arabs, including not only privately owned land, but uninhabited land, and State land.

The lie, then, is that the entirety of the land "belonged" to the Arabs. That's not how self-determination, sovereignty and Statehood work.

At the time, there were two distinct groups seeking self-determination: the Jewish people and the Arabs. (Now there are arguably four.) The land, according to the principles of self-determination, "belonged" to BOTH peoples, with neither having a superior right over the other. It is an equal right in principle.

 

[task0778]

How does that answer for the violence committed against Palestinian families who have resided there since the Ottoman Empire?
Is it right for violent Jews to just raid an area and violently assault Palestinians?

Is it right for violent Palestinians to raid an area and assault Israelis? They've been doing that since 1948, so doesn't Israel have the right to respond when attacked?

 

[Shusha]

Ok. Well can you speak about the settlers violently attacking Palestinians, destroying crops and killing livestock?

It is much exaggerated, but as far as it happens, and it does, it is to be condemned, pursued in criminal courts, and the offenders faced with appropriate consequences.

(And there is no need to label them settlers. They are Israeli citizens living in territory under the full control, by treaty, of Israel which also happens to be their indigenous homeland. You can't be a 'settler' on your own home.)

Will you condemn the violence committed by Arab Palestinians on Israeli citizens? How do you think those offenders should be treated by their own government?

 

[JohnDB]

 

[Shusha]

What kind of nation are you building?

They aren't in the business of nation-building. That's rather the problem.

I'm not certain that it matters what kind of government it ends up being. Dictatorship. Co-operative Tribal Monarchies. Theocratic democracy. Shrug.

The better question might be what does a different government need to accomplish in order for Palestine to emerge as a full State with some bright future for its citizens?

(Though I wholeheartedly believe that the phrase "Free Palestine" has two silent words at the end: "of Jews".)

 

[AnOrangeCat]

They aren't in the business of nation-building. That's rather the problem.

I'm not certain that it matters what kind of government it ends up being. Dictatorship. Co-operative Tribal Monarchies. Theocratic democracy. Shrug.

The better question might be what does a different government need to accomplish in order for Palestine to emerge as a full State with some bright future for its citizens?

(Though I wholeheartedly believe that the phrase "Free Palestine" has two silent words at the end: "of Jews".)

That's a very good question and one that those folks should be asking themselves.

 

[AnOrangeCat]

you aren't buiying that fltilla stuff, are you? Even though there is all sorts of video to show that nothing like that happened?

Are you protesting against Spain? No, you aren't.

Of course, none of this is relevant to your claim about the supposed peace in 1945.

Isn't it funny how those boat parades always seem to happen whenever Hamas is in tough negotiations to disarm? Must be a coincidence...

 

[AnOrangeCat]

Ok. Well can you speak about the settlers violently attacking Palestinians, destroying crops and killing livestock?

Tit-for-tat, cycle of violence.

However, Palestinians are in the unique position where they can change all that simply by laying down their arms, holding democratic elections, and giving up the myth of the Nakba.

Doing those three things costs them nothing, but they gain everything they say they want.

The myth of the Nakba makes it so that Palestinians never have to do the hard work of governing.

 

[marvin martian]

They have no idea. It's just a slogan to them and way to fill time in their meaningless lives.

They're the same people who want to give Texas and California back to Mexico because "no one is illegal on stolen land"...or something.

 

[Shusha]

That's a very good question and one that those folks should be asking themselves.

Agreed. But they won't.

 

[AnOrangeCat]

How does that answer for the violence committed against Palestinian families who have resided there since the Ottoman Empire?

But wouldn't that make them Ottomans?

Is it right for violent Jews to just raid an area and violently assault Palestinians?

No, but that pales in comparison to paying people to murder Jews. The two are not balanced morally. One is worse than the other.
But I understand the compulsion of binary thinking because we deal with that from MAGA all the time.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

Is it right for violent Palestinians to raid an area and assault Israelis? They've been doing that since 1948, so doesn't Israel have the right to respond when attacked?

I bet you call yourself a Christian don't ya? Anything for the Jews, though.

Good Goy.

 

[yidnar]

Would it be a democracy like Israel? Would it be a constitutional monarchy like they once had in Iran? Or would it be yet another Theocratic Islamist dictatorship like every Arab country in the Middle East?

What kind of nation are you building?

this excerpt from the link below should tell you what they want .

Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect".

Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises

Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.

www.reuters.com

 

[AnOrangeCat]

The Palestinians stand up for themselves

By becoming martyrs so Abbass will pay their family money they should instead use to build schools and deprogram the jihadist death cult?

 

[AnOrangeCat]

This cannot be taken as a serious asking. And besides, the statement is a premise based on the idea that Palestine is not Free.

Why not?

Don't you care what kind of state gets created?

Don't you care about the possible outcomes?

Have you put any thought into it at all?

We've tried nation building in the Middle East for 25 years and it hasn't succeeded anywhere. Not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. Not Syria. Not Libya. The Arab Spring was a total and complete failure of epic proportions.

So if democracy didn't succeed in any of those places, what makes you think it will succeed with Palestinians?

 

[AnOrangeCat]

specially after the latest incident where the IDF kidnapped unarmed aid worker on International waters to be tortured and gang raped.

I call BS on that.

Also, don't you think it is kind of suspicious that these boat parades always seem to happen whenever Hamas is in tough negotiations to disarm?

It's eerily similar to how Fox News and MAGA use the threat of Migrant Caravans to distract from their failure to govern.

 

[Dante]

Why not?

Because I don't really care.

I have an opinion, but I have no vested interests there.

Don't you care what kind of state gets created?

Nope.

Don't you care about the possible outcomes?

Nope.

Have you put any thought into it at all?

Into what exactly -- a Two-state solution?

We've tried nation building in the Middle East for 25 years and it hasn't succeeded anywhere. Not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. Not Syria. Not Libya. The Arab Spring was a total and complete failure of epic proportions.

I don't believe the US tried building any democratic states.

So if democracy didn't succeed in any of those places, what makes you think it will succeed with Palestinians?

I don't care, unless that's what the people there want, I say go for it.