Convincing Atheists

[dattaswami]

Convincing Atheists
The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. Infact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge. The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception. The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks. When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative. If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power. Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes. The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’.

Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists. Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself. This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas. In fact Swami Vidyaranya included the philosophy of Charvaka in his book as one of the logical philosophies (Darsanaas).

 

[dattaswami]

India should be nuked out of existence.

Please avoid emotions, which deactivate the brain and suppress the logical analysis. Emotion or anger is inversely proportional to knowledge. Let us discuss at length and in-depth with love and patience and with full harmony to each other avoiding the personal criticism. Let us concentrate all our attention on the critical subject only. I will come to your path if you convince me and the vice-versa is left to your will and pleasure.

Every point is a common point and belongs to both of us and we are trying to search the truth by sincere discussions so that both of us shall be benefited by the established truth at the end. One of us will correct his point and such correction is not personal correction. It is only correction of our common point. I am not wrong if my point is wrong. Similar is the case with you. I am not identified with any point, nor yourself. Both of us are analysing a substance because you say that it is chloride and I say that it is bromide. On analysis we shall find the truth and the true knowledge of the substance belongs to both of us. Neither you are chloride nor I am the bromide.

If it is proved as chloride I am not disproved. Only my point is disproved. One should not identify himself with any point in knowledge and should not feel himself rejected when his point is rejected. In such a state only the spiritual discussions can proceed to any length of time and to any extent of depth till we find the truth. If any one identifies with a point, he will never change since he feels that he himself has to change. He is not changing since he is changing a common point and attaining a true point. He changes his bad shirt and is wearing a good shirt. He is not any shirt. If this concept is realised the discussion can become meaningful. Otherwise the debate is a waste.

 

[dattaswami]

You're analysing an invisible non-existant substance that you can't prove is there, and I'm analyzing a nutjob.

Athiest can never disprove the existence of God

The atheists can never disprove the existence of unimaginable God due to several unimaginable events (miracles) exhibited by several Godly people and due to several practical experiences of the existence of unimaginable power of God during the lives of several people in this world.

The miracles are exhibited not only by Godly people and human incarnations but also by evil people having very bad character and conduct, cheating the public in many ways. The development of atheism is mainly due to the existence of such evil people only. But, the atheists are also not analyzing the miracle performed by an evil person. The concept of the miracle is completely different and has nothing to do with the character of the person performing that miracle. A petty fellow, who has worst character due to bad habits like drinking etc., is announcing a rule of Municipality in a town to the public. The message of the announcement has nothing to do with the character of the announcer. Since, the announcer is a bad fellow, you cannot ignore the message of the Municipality and behave as you like. The announcer will be separately punished for his bad character. You will be also punished if you ignore his announcement based on the point that the announcer is not a good fellow.

Similarly, you have to take the point conveyed by the miracle and ignore the character of the evil person performing that miracle. God will punish him separately for his evil nature. From the unimaginable event (miracle), you should conclude the existence of unimaginable God. This is the message of any miracle to create the fundamental belief in God. Some people having jealousy on great devotees of God or the human incarnation of God, reject the greatness of devotees or incarnation based on miracles by saying “even dirty people perform these miracles. What is the greatness by such miracles?”.

They pass such comments due to two reasons:

1) they are jealous of the greatness of devotees or incarnation and
2) they have not understood the message conveyed by a miracle.

If a good fellow is announcing a message and if you say that the same message was also announced by a bad fellow previously and hence the message should be neglected, is it correct? A miracle is necessary for majority of human beings to have real belief in the existence of God. Several people are standing on the ground and require this to climb the first step. After having the full belief in the existence of God, miracles are not necessary because the second step is to attain the grace of God through practical sacrifice. But, several theists also need the observation of miracles, because their belief is not perfect and hence to strengthen their belief, miracles are necessary. Even a person having full faith in the existence of God should not criticize the miracles, because you cannot ignore the first step after climbing the second step.

 

[Ravi]

Who cares?

 

[hjmick]

Why convince anyone? Just believe what you want to believe and let others do the same.

 

[Immanuel]

It is not up to us to convince anyone. If there is a God, and I believe there is, then God will take care of what needs to be taken care of.

Immie

 

[dattaswami]

It is not up to us to convince anyone. If there is a God, and I believe there is, then God will take care of what needs to be taken care of.

Immie

Lord- Atheist –Service

Building is there. Implies Builder should be there. Creation is there. Creator should be there. I can see the building, which is in front of my eyes, but builder need not stand in front of the building. He will be in his own job. If you want to meet the builder, you should definitely put effort to locate the builder and see him. Likewise Creation is there in front of our eyes. But have we put anytime effort to locate and identify the creator? Instead of that, with least effort we can propagate to others also that God is not there. They are not only blinded, they are making others also blinded. Some people who are theists may become prey for the propagation of this ignorance also unfortunately. The greatest sin on the earth is to be unfaithful.

To identify the builder you should know the identification marks, where he lives, what he does etc.. and we have to enquire if we don't know. This is to say that knowledge is required to identify any person. This knowledge is called divine knowledge if the aim is to identify the Lord, which actually only is to be propagated. Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive and we human beings are enjoying the creation. Like through nice parents, wife, children, beautiful nature consisting of pleasant looking mountains, rivers, sea, nature, changing weather etc.

If we cannot please the Lord, the human life is incomplete. We serve our family members by spending our hard earned money and also physically. Are we not serving family as Servant, and these family members are nearly equal to us. Where as, Lord is omnipotent and requires no help from us, many times satisfied our desires, saved us from mishaps etc. and if we cannot bow our head in front of Him, it is very ridiculous. It is very great honour to serve Him, this is the path followed by His real devotees. These real devotees could overcome ego and always wants to serve Him as servant.

Jesus preached the gospel and His followers participated in His mission as servants for further propagation of divine knowledge. These great devotees never hesitated to serve Lord Jesus and their names have also been known even today.

 

[BrokenAngel]

It is not up to us to convince anyone. If there is a God, and I believe there is, then God will take care of what needs to be taken care of.

Immie

Lord- Atheist –Service

Building is there. Implies Builder should be there. Creation is there. Creator should be there. I can see the building, which is in front of my eyes, but builder need not stand in front of the building. He will be in his own job. If you want to meet the builder, you should definitely put effort to locate the builder and see him. Likewise Creation is there in front of our eyes. But have we put anytime effort to locate and identify the creator? Instead of that, with least effort we can propagate to others also that God is not there. They are not only blinded, they are making others also blinded. Some people who are theists may become prey for the propagation of this ignorance also unfortunately. The greatest sin on the earth is to be unfaithful.

To identify the builder you should know the identification marks, where he lives, what he does etc.. and we have to enquire if we don't know. This is to say that knowledge is required to identify any person. This knowledge is called divine knowledge if the aim is to identify the Lord, which actually only is to be propagated. Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive and we human beings are enjoying the creation. Like through nice parents, wife, children, beautiful nature consisting of pleasant looking mountains, rivers, sea, nature, changing weather etc.

If we cannot please the Lord, the human life is incomplete. We serve our family members by spending our hard earned money and also physically. Are we not serving family as Servant, and these family members are nearly equal to us. Where as, Lord is omnipotent and requires no help from us, many times satisfied our desires, saved us from mishaps etc. and if we cannot bow our head in front of Him, it is very ridiculous. It is very great honour to serve Him, this is the path followed by His real devotees. These real devotees could overcome ego and always wants to serve Him as servant.

Jesus preached the gospel and His followers participated in His mission as servants for further propagation of divine knowledge. These great devotees never hesitated to serve Lord Jesus and their names have also been known even today.

Dattaswami.. as someone who is religious I would ask you to be careful. You are new to the board so you haven't seen how inflamed people seem to get here over religion, whether they have one or not. Try posting on a few of the active threads, get to know the feel of the people here before trying to engage them in discussions like this.

The atheists here aren't looking to be convinced and will write you off as a quack for trying. The down side is that it might possibly enrage those who don't have the capacity to argue with you and cause them to come down harder on the rest of us who do believe in a God just to feel vindicated that their perspective is right.

We all want our beliefs to be the right views and for each of us what they feel, what they think happens to be what is right for that individual. I wish everyone could find the sheer joy I did when I welcomed God into my life, but that also isn't something you can force someone to come to the realization of. Either someone will end up opening their heart to God or they will not, but that is for their heart to decide in due time.

Well written and thought out arguments though and best of luck to you. Just get to know your audiance before you try to have a discussion with them. Don't want you to burn yourself out too quickly here.

 

[Immanuel]

Broken Angel is right and in some respect it goes to how I feel.

You cannot "convince" an athiest. Beating them over the head with their lack of faith won't give them faith. It will simply piss them off more. You are better off being faithful to God and letting God have control than stepping up to the plate and attacking everyone that doesn't see eye to eye with your beliefs. If you do that ultimately you will end up frustrated and they will end up hating God more.

Immie

 

[BrokenAngel]

You cannot "convince" an athiest.

Because you have no tangible proof to show. Atheists are realistists. You'd need some facts, not just fiction.

How about a picture of Jesus on a piece of pita bread? Would that work?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

As a jewish buddhist I dont think you can use buddhism to convince an atheist of anything they dont want to believe in.

 

[Ravi]

Broken Angel is right and in some respect it goes to how I feel.

You cannot "convince" an athiest. Beating them over the head with their lack of faith won't give them faith. It will simply piss them off more. You are better off being faithful to God and letting God have control than stepping up to the plate and attacking everyone that doesn't see eye to eye with your beliefs. If you do that ultimately you will end up frustrated and they will end up hating God more.

Immie

Do you have proof that atheists hate God or do you just take that on faith?

 

[Bootneck]

You know something Dattaswami, I don't mind what your beliefs are. Hell, I don't even mind you thinking my beliefs are wrong. But please, don't go sticking your dick down my throat and expect me to believe it's a lollipop!

 

[BrokenAngel]

You know something Dattaswami, I don't mind what your beliefs are. Hell, I don't even mind you thinking my beliefs are wrong. But please, don't go sticking your dick down my throat and expect me to believe it's a lollipop!

OMG I visualized I visualized AHHH!!!

 

[YWN666]

Athiest can never disprove the existence of God

For the same reason you can't disprove the existence of leprechauns. You can't logically disprove the existence of something. A person that uses that lame argument is in effect waving a white flag.

 

[Avatar4321]

You convince an athiest the same way you convince anyone else, you don't. The Spirit convinces them. And you invite the Spirit in the conversation with patience, longsuffering, humility, persuasion and love.

 

[Immanuel]

Do you have proof that atheists hate God or do you just take that on faith?

Hate was a poor choice of words and really didn't convey my meaning. I meant dislike the people who try to force God upon them.

Please accept my apology. I was not attempting to insult you.

Immie

 

[Avatar4321]

For the same reason you can't disprove the existence of leprechauns. You can't logically disprove the existence of something. A person that uses that lame argument is in effect waving a white flag.

It's not a lame argument. In fact, I am not sure it is an argument. It's simply a statement of fact. Athiests cant disprove the existance of God. It's impossible to know that God does not exist.

I can, however, know God exists simply by having experiences with Him. When you recieve revelation from God, you know God exists. I presume you would agree that if God spoke to you or appeared to you, you would know He exists correct?

And we have been provided with guidelines on how to recieve said revelation. It requires effort. So to summarize the facts we have so far:

1) God existance cannot be disproven.
2) If there is a God, then there are ways people could know He exists. (This fact does not determine whether there are people who do know God exists. Only that this is possible. And I think its indisputeable that it's possibe).

And using these two premises, I think we need to ask ourselves the following:

1) If there is a God, do I want to know?
2) How would I be able to know?

You have to answer those questions yourself. I know I have asked those questions of myself years ago. I determined that if there was a God, I would want to know. And I determined that if it is possible to know God, then have to seek those ways out.

When I went through the process, I had no idea how God would reveal Himself or even if He could. I proceeded on the assumption that He could reveal Himself and that I would know when He did because otherwise id be sitting around doing absolutely nothing and I wouldnt be any wiser.

To make a long story short, I experimented on the Word. I looked into what different faiths said. And i tried out what they taught for myself. And I have since had countless experiences that reaffirm that there is a God. I can't give anyone else these experiences. They are my own. But I can encourage others to seek God out. I can try to persuade people to experiment on the word with an open mind.

I am not one for set word for word prayers. But I cant think of an better example for this than the following prayer:

16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.

17 And it came to pass that when Aaron had said these words, the king did bow down before the Lord, upon his knees; yea, even he did prostrate himself upon the earth, and cried mightily, saying:

18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. (Alma 22:16-17)

That was an example of a prayer of someone who did not know whether there was a God, but who wanted to know. I think we can all do this in our personal life. It says to ask in faith, but the faith needed is so miniscule even athiests could do it if they were open to it. All you have to believe is that it is possible. And logically, that should not be difficult because it is possible that God can reveal Himself.

Thinking back, I did much the same thing. I decided to exercise faith that if there was a God, He could reveal Himself. I didnt know if He would. I didnt know whether He could. But if I hadnt been open to the possibility and believed it, I dont think I could have ever learned it. Because I think even a smigeon of faith is necessary to recieve a witness.

This is not an experience that I can be alone in experiencing. I think this is a repeatable experiment. There are variables. These experiences arent necessarily instantaneous. There is work involved. But if you put in the effort, or in other words, if you are willing to believe enough just to act. You will learn the truth of God. I have no doubt of that in my mind.

 

[Ravi]

Do you have proof that atheists hate God or do you just take that on faith?

Hate was a poor choice of words and really didn't convey my meaning. I meant dislike the people who try to force God upon them.

Please accept my apology. I was not attempting to insult you.

Immie

No problem. I'm not an atheist. It did seem rather silly, though. I don't believe in Santa but that doesn't mean I hate him.

 

[dattaswami]

God comes in human form for a multi-dimensional program

God comes in human form for a multi-dimensional program. He preaches divine knowledge covering all humanity including atheists. Miracles are mainly for atheists alone and some atheists have been converted into theists through the miracles. God receives the services of certain blessed devotees, who had done a lot of penance with that desire. He selects for His service only such a blessed soul, who has done a lot of penance in the past. The human incarnation mainly comes here only to fulfill the desire of such blessed devotees. Having come to earth for that purpose, He always tries to uplift all through the divine knowledge and miracles. The few exceptional blessed devotees are pleased to serve the Lord personally and see the pleasure on the face of the Lord, for which they did a lot of penance for several births. This is the main purpose of the visit of God in human form to earth.