Consevative Puritans vs. liberal Lutherans

hangover

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Republicans are the remnant of the Puritans, Democrats are the remnant of the Lutherans.
Martin Luther was the founder of the Protestants. John Calvin was the founder of the Puritans.
Lutherans believe that all men were created equal. Puritans believe in predestination.

Puritans believe that God predestined certain people to be his "chosen" that will go to heaven, all others are destined to go to hell. The "chosen" are the prosperous, the "wealthy". And you must work to be "wealthy" because it is Godly to do so. And anyone that is not prosperous is condemned by God. The Puritans believe that God made certain people to be slaves for the "wealthy".

Lutherans, believing that all are created equal, strive free the slaves from the yoke of the prosperous. They try to break the the rigged game of capitalism that chains the slaves to a life of poverty. Lutherans were the original liberals, liberating the masses from the slavery of Catholicism, that kept everyone in the dark ages for a thousand years.

Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
 
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hangover

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The fallacy of the Puritans is, no one can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.
What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun?-Eccl 1:2-3
 

MarcATL

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Interesting observation hangover. Interesting.
 

Papageorgio

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I have never subscribed to predestination, it doesn't make any sense to me.
 

MarcATL

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I have never subscribed to predestination, it doesn't make any sense to me.
That's because it's not biblical.

Another version of it is the "once saved, always saved" concept.

It's just not biblical. It's a distortion of Scripture.
 

Delta4Embassy

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Republicans are the remnant of the Puritans, Democrats are the remnant of the Lutherans.
Martin Luther was the founder of the Protestants. John Calvin was the founder of the Puritans.
Lutherans believe that all men were created equal. Puritans believe in predestination.

Puritans believe that God predestined certain people to be his "chosen" that will go to heaven, all others are destined to go to hell. The "chosen" are the prosperous, the "wealthy". And you must work to be "wealthy" because it is Godly to do so. And anyone that is not prosperous is condemned by God. The Puritans believe that God made certain people to be slaves for the "wealthy".

Lutherans, believing that all are created equal, strive free the slaves from the yoke of the prosperous. They try to break the the rigged game of capitalism that chains the slaves to a life of poverty. Lutherans were the original liberals, liberating the masses from the slavery of Catholicism, that kept everyone in the dark ages for a thousand years.

Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
Interesting analogy. What I get from it is ask yourself which is better? Puritans or Lutherens? Which ones are still around? :)
 

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Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
I won't comment upon the Puritans and the Lutherans since I don't know much about these Churches. However, I'd be surprised if the official goal of the Vatican's support for science were a means to getting scientific proofs of God. Some Catholic theologians do look for such proofs, but most of them prefer to turn to philosophical proofs or even deny the possibility of proving God.

And the pope is not a liberal by most standards. He hasn't and very likely won't change any of the current rules about homosexuality, premarital sex, abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia or women's priesthood. He is more liberal with respect to economic inequalities though. But he is not the first to tread this path. For more than a century, popes have consistently stood up against the problems of unrestrained free market.

At any rate, the pope appears to be more sensitive to lowly people and their concrete problems rather than live in an ivory tower. And he has tended to focus less on power, wealth, reputation and status and more on service and cooperation, like his role model Jesus did.
 

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The fallacy of the Puritans is, no one can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.
What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun?-Eccl 1:2-3
it's the fallacy of your division.

Not everybody is Protestant :rolleyes:
 
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hangover

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Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
I won't comment upon the Puritans and the Lutherans since I don't know much about these Churches. However, I'd be surprised if the official goal of the Vatican's support for science were a means to getting scientific proofs of God. Some Catholic theologians do look for such proofs, but most of them prefer to turn to philosophical proofs or even deny the possibility of proving God.

And the pope is not a liberal by most standards. He hasn't and very likely won't change any of the current rules about homosexuality, premarital sex, abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia or women's priesthood. He is more liberal with respect to economic inequalities though. But he is not the first to tread this path. For more than a century, popes have consistently stood up against the problems of unrestrained free market.

At any rate, the pope appears to be more sensitive to lowly people and their concrete problems rather than live in an ivory tower. And he has tended to focus less on power, wealth, reputation and status and more on service and cooperation, like his role model Jesus did.
By most standards, that defines him as a LIBERAL.
 
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hangover

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The fallacy of the Puritans is, no one can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.
What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun?-Eccl 1:2-3
it's the fallacy of your division.

Not everybody is Protestant :rolleyes:
^^^^Puritan MENTALity.
 

Avatar4321

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Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
I won't comment upon the Puritans and the Lutherans since I don't know much about these Churches. However, I'd be surprised if the official goal of the Vatican's support for science were a means to getting scientific proofs of God. Some Catholic theologians do look for such proofs, but most of them prefer to turn to philosophical proofs or even deny the possibility of proving God.

And the pope is not a liberal by most standards. He hasn't and very likely won't change any of the current rules about homosexuality, premarital sex, abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia or women's priesthood. He is more liberal with respect to economic inequalities though. But he is not the first to tread this path. For more than a century, popes have consistently stood up against the problems of unrestrained free market.

At any rate, the pope appears to be more sensitive to lowly people and their concrete problems rather than live in an ivory tower. And he has tended to focus less on power, wealth, reputation and status and more on service and cooperation, like his role model Jesus did.
By most standards, that defines him as a LIBERAL.
Only if you completely ignore what liberals say, do, and the policies they support.
 

Avatar4321

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The fallacy of the Puritans is, no one can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.
What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun?-Eccl 1:2-3
it's the fallacy of your division.

Not everybody is Protestant :rolleyes:
^^^^Puritan MENTALity.
If that's so the puritans have quite a lot of good thinking going on. Because there are lots of groups. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants (which both Lutherans & Calvinists are part of), Evangelicals (which often over lap with Protestants), Restorationists, and Others (JWs, Quakers, general non-denominational)

Also, I don't think your comparison holds up as much as you think. Martin Luther believed and taught the equality of all men? Could you please explain some of his anti jewish writings then? (though to be fair it seems he was much more tolerant towards Jews early on).

Puritans also did not condemn the poor. They did quite alot to help lift the poor and up and help them not be self sufficient. Especially considering they were all poor when they came over to the United States.

I am curious about one thing. You seem to think Puritans and Protestants are different groups. You do realize that the work ethic you are complaining about the Puritans having was historically called the Protestant Work Ethic. And it isn't exactly how you described. You see, protestants recognized you didn't need a professional clergy to teach the word of God. You could read it for yourself through your own personal studies and it could be read by lay people during services. It allowed the average person access to God. Instead of joining religious orders like in the Catholic Church, it became popular for people to treat their professions as their personal ministries. Their professions became their way to serve their fellow man and their God. Their vocation. And because they were zealous in serving God through their profession, they very naturally did obtain wealth. Because that's what work produces.
 

MarcATL

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I won't comment upon the Puritans and the Lutherans since I don't know much about these Churches. However, I'd be surprised if the official goal of the Vatican's support for science were a means to getting scientific proofs of God. Some Catholic theologians do look for such proofs, but most of them prefer to turn to philosophical proofs or even deny the possibility of proving God.

And the pope is not a liberal by most standards. He hasn't and very likely won't change any of the current rules about homosexuality, premarital sex, abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia or women's priesthood. He is more liberal with respect to economic inequalities though. But he is not the first to tread this path. For more than a century, popes have consistently stood up against the problems of unrestrained free market.

At any rate, the pope appears to be more sensitive to lowly people and their concrete problems rather than live in an ivory tower. And he has tended to focus less on power, wealth, reputation and status and more on service and cooperation, like his role model Jesus did.
By most standards, that defines him as a LIBERAL.
Only if you completely ignore what liberals say, do, and the policies they support.
What are you suggesting here [MENTION=854]Avatar4321[/MENTION]?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you suggesting that unless you're a self-proclaimed conservative or actual one, you are not a Christian?
 

GrosMinet

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By most standards, that defines him as a LIBERAL.
I don't think so. The pope's beliefs on hot issues are generally more in line with Conservatism than with Liberalism, except for economics. Sure, he has a charming personality and has been tactful in dealing with hot potatoes, but who said Conservatives couldn't?
 

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The fallacy of the Puritans is, no one can work their way to heaven. Salvation is a gift.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.
What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun?-Eccl 1:2-3
it's the fallacy of your division.

Not everybody is Protestant :rolleyes:
^^^^Puritan MENTALity.
and you are just a leftard ignorant idiot.

I am not even Protestant :lol:
 

Vox

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Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
I won't comment upon the Puritans and the Lutherans since I don't know much about these Churches. However, I'd be surprised if the official goal of the Vatican's support for science were a means to getting scientific proofs of God. Some Catholic theologians do look for such proofs, but most of them prefer to turn to philosophical proofs or even deny the possibility of proving God.

And the pope is not a liberal by most standards. He hasn't and very likely won't change any of the current rules about homosexuality, premarital sex, abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia or women's priesthood. He is more liberal with respect to economic inequalities though. But he is not the first to tread this path. For more than a century, popes have consistently stood up against the problems of unrestrained free market.

At any rate, the pope appears to be more sensitive to lowly people and their concrete problems rather than live in an ivory tower. And he has tended to focus less on power, wealth, reputation and status and more on service and cooperation, like his role model Jesus did.
The Pope is NOT" liberal".
Only our ignorant leftards would considered the Pope to be leftist.

he is a citizen of a third world country.
and that is why he is constantly sensitive about poor and neglected.
Because in the third world there are the REAL poor and neglected, unlike in this country.
But the ignorant leftards do not know it :lol:
 

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Actually the opposite is true. The party of Lincoln was the first liberal (in the true sense) political experiment. Democrats gained power in the 20th century when FDR refused to step down like a gentleman after two terms and used gestapo tactics to incarcerate innocent Japanese American citizens. The democrat party is the party of slavery and lynching and KKK violence.
 

Daktoria

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Republicans are the remnant of the Puritans, Democrats are the remnant of the Lutherans.
Martin Luther was the founder of the Protestants. John Calvin was the founder of the Puritans.
Lutherans believe that all men were created equal. Puritans believe in predestination.

Puritans believe that God predestined certain people to be his "chosen" that will go to heaven, all others are destined to go to hell. The "chosen" are the prosperous, the "wealthy". And you must work to be "wealthy" because it is Godly to do so. And anyone that is not prosperous is condemned by God. The Puritans believe that God made certain people to be slaves for the "wealthy".

Lutherans, believing that all are created equal, strive free the slaves from the yoke of the prosperous. They try to break the the rigged game of capitalism that chains the slaves to a life of poverty. Lutherans were the original liberals, liberating the masses from the slavery of Catholicism, that kept everyone in the dark ages for a thousand years.

Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
Lutherans are really just moderate Calvinists. Their dissociation from the Catholic Church was fundamentally built on believing that you were either chosen by God or not such that the sale of indulgences was invalid to make penance and that worshiping in the Church was invalid since you were either chosen or not for salvation.

Catholics believed that people are universally endowed with grace and that nobody has to perform good works to represent a predestined calling since grace reveals itself in mysterious ways.

Lutherans don't take it to the point of expecting people to perform good works to represent a predestined calling, but they still believe in predestined callings, so the foundation for Calvinism is still there.
 

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Republicans are the remnant of the Puritans, Democrats are the remnant of the Lutherans.
Martin Luther was the founder of the Protestants. John Calvin was the founder of the Puritans.
Lutherans believe that all men were created equal. Puritans believe in predestination.

Puritans believe that God predestined certain people to be his "chosen" that will go to heaven, all others are destined to go to hell. The "chosen" are the prosperous, the "wealthy". And you must work to be "wealthy" because it is Godly to do so. And anyone that is not prosperous is condemned by God. The Puritans believe that God made certain people to be slaves for the "wealthy".

Lutherans, believing that all are created equal, strive free the slaves from the yoke of the prosperous. They try to break the the rigged game of capitalism that chains the slaves to a life of poverty. Lutherans were the original liberals, liberating the masses from the slavery of Catholicism, that kept everyone in the dark ages for a thousand years.

Copernicus, Glalileo, and Newton were liberals that questioned Catholic dogma. And now that that dogma has been exposed as false, the Vatican has adopted science to prove God. The Vatican now has it's own observatory. And the Pope is now a liberal!...And the Puritans hate him.
This post is so staggeringly full of factual errors and unintentional hilarity that I don't know where to start.

I'll try to make a list.

1. The Vatican Observatory has existed since the 1700s.
2. The Vatican has never tried to "prove God" using science.
3. Isaac Newton was a Puritan.
4. Both Puritans and Lutherans were questioning Catholic dogma.
5. Puritans, almost universally, were abolitionists and did not support slavery.
6. You misunderstand Calvinism and predestination entirely. Material wealth and worldly success were not the point.
 

Daktoria

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it's the fallacy of your division.

Not everybody is Protestant :rolleyes:
^^^^Puritan MENTALity.
If that's so the puritans have quite a lot of good thinking going on. Because there are lots of groups. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants (which both Lutherans & Calvinists are part of), Evangelicals (which often over lap with Protestants), Restorationists, and Others (JWs, Quakers, general non-denominational)

Also, I don't think your comparison holds up as much as you think. Martin Luther believed and taught the equality of all men? Could you please explain some of his anti jewish writings then? (though to be fair it seems he was much more tolerant towards Jews early on).

Puritans also did not condemn the poor. They did quite alot to help lift the poor and up and help them not be self sufficient. Especially considering they were all poor when they came over to the United States.

I am curious about one thing. You seem to think Puritans and Protestants are different groups. You do realize that the work ethic you are complaining about the Puritans having was historically called the Protestant Work Ethic. And it isn't exactly how you described. You see, protestants recognized you didn't need a professional clergy to teach the word of God. You could read it for yourself through your own personal studies and it could be read by lay people during services. It allowed the average person access to God. Instead of joining religious orders like in the Catholic Church, it became popular for people to treat their professions as their personal ministries. Their professions became their way to serve their fellow man and their God. Their vocation. And because they were zealous in serving God through their profession, they very naturally did obtain wealth. Because that's what work produces.
A lot of Luther's controversy on Jews deals exactly with that relationship between predestined callings and good works.

When Luther was separating from the Catholic Church, he was frustrated with the Church's material corrupt decadence at the time which is comparable to how Jews believe they're chosen by God and judge others for being chosen or not.

Luther didn't believe people could judge whether or not others were chosen even though he believed in predestined callings, so when he saw how Jews tried to judge people based on what's on the outside, he got fed up with them.
 

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