CDZ Conservative Principles and Anger

[Elvis Obama]

William F. Buckley, considered by many to be the father of modern conservatism, famously declared in the mission statement for The National Review that:

"...It stands athwart history, yelling Stop..."

This is, on its face, silly. Is history likely to stop? There is another basic truth about human nature, however. Fools rush in. Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it. Both attitudes are essential. Compromise is the true underlying principle of democracy. Conservative and progressive principles do not cancel each other out, they balance one another, as long as the will to compromise is not abandoned.

Unfortunately, we have abandoned it. We have substituted brute force for compromise. We have allowed the frustration we feel with our co-opted government to spill over into our dealings with those with whom we disagree. Why?

My feeling is that conservatives are frustrated because their function in society is to fail. History will not stop. It can be slowed, but inevitably change will always take place. Do you advocate for LGBT rights? Wait. Eventually you will win. Conservatives will fail. Marijuana legalization? Wait. It will happen. Just as African American rights will win, and women's rights will win, and... everything. One in five Trump supporters regard the abolition of slavery to have been a mistake. Yikes. Do they really believe, in their heart of hearts, that they will succeed in re-instituting slavery? Abortions rights? Block clinics, impose regulations which threaten to shut them down. Work to throw up roadblocks because a frontal approach is recognized as a waste of time. Work to retain power through voter suppression and gerrymandering, because there is no other path to power.

No wonder conservatives are angry. When do they ever win? "Progressivism is a mental disease!", they scream in their frustration. As a consequence, democracy and compromise has failed, but even worse, so has discussion. This forum is a perfect example. Millions of posts which are nothing but people talking past one another. Can this rift be repaired?

 

[toxicmedia]

William F. Buckley, considered by many to be the father of modern conservatism, famously declared in the mission statement for The National Review that:

"...It stands athwart history, yelling Stop..."

This is, on its face, silly. Is history likely to stop? There is another basic truth about human nature, however. Fools rush in. Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it. Both attitudes are essential. Compromise is the true underlying principle of democracy. Conservative and progressive principles do not cancel each other out, they balance one another, as long as the will to compromise is not abandoned.

Unfortunately, we have abandoned it. We have substituted brute force for compromise. We have allowed the frustration we feel with our co-opted government to spill over into our dealings with those with whom we disagree. Why?

My feeling is that conservatives are frustrated because their function in society is to fail. History will not stop. It can be slowed, but inevitably change will always take place. Do you advocate for LGBT rights? Wait. Eventually you will win. Conservatives will fail. Marijuana legalization? Wait. It will happen. Just as African American rights will win, and women's rights will win, and... everything. One in five Trump supporters regard the abolition of slavery to have been a mistake. Yikes. Do they really believe, in their heart of hearts, that they will succeed in re-instituting slavery? Abortions rights? Block clinics, impose regulations which threaten to shut them down. Work to throw up roadblocks because a frontal approach is recognized as a waste of time. Work to retain power through voter suppression and gerrymandering, because there is no other path to power.

No wonder conservatives are angry. When do they ever win? "Progressivism is a mental disease!", they scream in their frustration. As a consequence, democracy and compromise has failed, but even worse, so has discussion. This forum is a perfect example. Millions of posts which are nothing but people talking past one another. Can this rift be repaired?

"Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it"

I tried to run that concept through the mill, and found so many contradictions.

For example, one could call the Confederacy a rejection of tradition, because it sought to undo the Union, but they were really just mostly southern Conservatives embracing their economic tradition of slavery.

The people today calling themselves Conservatives do not necessarily embrace how Eisenhower, Goldwater, and Reagan viewed Conservatism. Nor do they seem to see eye to eye with people like Irving Kristol, George Will, or William F Buckley...which make what they're doing a rejection of tradition...even though their battle cry is "restore" America.

I think the concept fails in that people simply want to embrace their own traditions. Whether it's 60's style Liberalism, or angry Conservatives that are really just Tea Party/Militia/ Evangelicals.

Tough to simplify anything in politics these days

 

[Elvis Obama]

William F. Buckley, considered by many to be the father of modern conservatism, famously declared in the mission statement for The National Review that:

"...It stands athwart history, yelling Stop..."

This is, on its face, silly. Is history likely to stop? There is another basic truth about human nature, however. Fools rush in. Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it. Both attitudes are essential. Compromise is the true underlying principle of democracy. Conservative and progressive principles do not cancel each other out, they balance one another, as long as the will to compromise is not abandoned.

Unfortunately, we have abandoned it. We have substituted brute force for compromise. We have allowed the frustration we feel with our co-opted government to spill over into our dealings with those with whom we disagree. Why?

My feeling is that conservatives are frustrated because their function in society is to fail. History will not stop. It can be slowed, but inevitably change will always take place. Do you advocate for LGBT rights? Wait. Eventually you will win. Conservatives will fail. Marijuana legalization? Wait. It will happen. Just as African American rights will win, and women's rights will win, and... everything. One in five Trump supporters regard the abolition of slavery to have been a mistake. Yikes. Do they really believe, in their heart of hearts, that they will succeed in re-instituting slavery? Abortions rights? Block clinics, impose regulations which threaten to shut them down. Work to throw up roadblocks because a frontal approach is recognized as a waste of time. Work to retain power through voter suppression and gerrymandering, because there is no other path to power.

No wonder conservatives are angry. When do they ever win? "Progressivism is a mental disease!", they scream in their frustration. As a consequence, democracy and compromise has failed, but even worse, so has discussion. This forum is a perfect example. Millions of posts which are nothing but people talking past one another. Can this rift be repaired?

"Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it"

I tried to run that concept through the mill, and found so many contradictions.

For example, one could call the Confederacy a rejection of tradition, because it sought to undo the Union, but they were really just mostly southern Conservatives embracing their economic tradition of slavery.

The people today calling themselves Conservatives do not necessarily embrace how Eisenhower, Goldwater, and Reagan viewed Conservatism. Nor do they seem to see eye to eye with people like Irving Kristol, George Will, or William F Buckley...which make what they're doing a rejection of tradition...even though their battle cry is "restore" America.

I think the concept fails in that people simply want to embrace their own traditions. Whether it's 60's style Liberalism, or angry Conservatives that are really just Tea Party/Militia/ Evangelicals.

Tough to simplify anything in politics these days

The Confederacy, it seems to me, was an example of radicalism, which in their case was borne out of a complete rejection of reality. At a time when legal slavery was dying out in every corner of the globe, a time when the slave trade had been dismantled, the Southern radicals sought to reconstitute the slave trade and expand slavery as an institution. Talk abut tone deaf. OTOH, they recognized that their little antebellum fantasy world was doomed once slavery was abolished, and their days of power and privilege were numbered.

My thesis is that conservatism is fracturing because they cannot deliver success. Like the Confederacy they are abandoning a dying tradition and instead adopting radicalism. In this case it is radical obstructionism that they are turning to, and the rank and file of their movement are rejecting that strategy. It's like Monty Python's Royal Society For Putting Things on Top of Other Things. A silly effort, which people have suddenly recognized is an exercise in futility. To advocate for cautious change is sensible, but to advocate for desperate obstructionism is hardly an inspiring vision.

What is being missed about Trump is that he is actually creating a new coalition, one which rejects conservatism. His supporters don't care about conservative principles, and don't even shy away from the notion of raising taxes. Grover Norquist's head must be in danger of exploding like a scene from Scanners.

 

[toxicmedia]

William F. Buckley, considered by many to be the father of modern conservatism, famously declared in the mission statement for The National Review that:

"...It stands athwart history, yelling Stop..."

This is, on its face, silly. Is history likely to stop? There is another basic truth about human nature, however. Fools rush in. Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it. Both attitudes are essential. Compromise is the true underlying principle of democracy. Conservative and progressive principles do not cancel each other out, they balance one another, as long as the will to compromise is not abandoned.

Unfortunately, we have abandoned it. We have substituted brute force for compromise. We have allowed the frustration we feel with our co-opted government to spill over into our dealings with those with whom we disagree. Why?

My feeling is that conservatives are frustrated because their function in society is to fail. History will not stop. It can be slowed, but inevitably change will always take place. Do you advocate for LGBT rights? Wait. Eventually you will win. Conservatives will fail. Marijuana legalization? Wait. It will happen. Just as African American rights will win, and women's rights will win, and... everything. One in five Trump supporters regard the abolition of slavery to have been a mistake. Yikes. Do they really believe, in their heart of hearts, that they will succeed in re-instituting slavery? Abortions rights? Block clinics, impose regulations which threaten to shut them down. Work to throw up roadblocks because a frontal approach is recognized as a waste of time. Work to retain power through voter suppression and gerrymandering, because there is no other path to power.

No wonder conservatives are angry. When do they ever win? "Progressivism is a mental disease!", they scream in their frustration. As a consequence, democracy and compromise has failed, but even worse, so has discussion. This forum is a perfect example. Millions of posts which are nothing but people talking past one another. Can this rift be repaired?

"Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it"

I tried to run that concept through the mill, and found so many contradictions.

For example, one could call the Confederacy a rejection of tradition, because it sought to undo the Union, but they were really just mostly southern Conservatives embracing their economic tradition of slavery.

The people today calling themselves Conservatives do not necessarily embrace how Eisenhower, Goldwater, and Reagan viewed Conservatism. Nor do they seem to see eye to eye with people like Irving Kristol, George Will, or William F Buckley...which make what they're doing a rejection of tradition...even though their battle cry is "restore" America.

I think the concept fails in that people simply want to embrace their own traditions. Whether it's 60's style Liberalism, or angry Conservatives that are really just Tea Party/Militia/ Evangelicals.

Tough to simplify anything in politics these days

The Confederacy, it seems to me, was an example of radicalism, which in their case was borne out of a complete rejection of reality. At a time when legal slavery was dying out in every corner of the globe, a time when the slave trade had been dismantled, the Southern radicals sought to reconstitute the slave trade and expand slavery as an institution. Talk abut tone deaf. OTOH, they recognized that their little antebellum fantasy world was doomed once slavery was abolished, and their days of power and privilege were numbered.

My thesis is that conservatism is fracturing because they cannot deliver success. Like the Confederacy they are abandoning a dying tradition and instead adopting radicalism. In this case it is radical obstructionism that they are turning to, and the rank and file of their movement are rejecting that strategy. It's like Monty Python's Royal Society For Putting Things on Top of Other Things. A silly effort, which people have suddenly recognized is an exercise in futility. To advocate for cautious change is sensible, but to advocate for desperate obstructionism is hardly an inspiring vision.

What is being missed about Trump is that he is actually creating a new coalition, one which rejects conservatism. His supporters don't care about conservative principles, and don't even shy away from the notion of raising taxes. Grover Norquist's head must be in danger of exploding like a scene from Scanners.

"My thesis is that conservatism is fracturing because they cannot deliver success"...

Consider this...

If you're talking about Conservatism in America, I believe it's not Conservatism that can't deliver. Within the post "WWII economic prosperity bubble", it is the American worker as a commodity that could not fail from 1945-1995. The rest of the economic world that was devastated by WWII, has caught up, and now both Liberals and Conservatives can't take credit for how easy it used to be. They also can't lay blame on Americans because they won't get elected. So you have what we have today. Liberals and Conservatives saying they'll make things right again, but unable to deliver, and unable to admit they can't.

 

[Elvis Obama]

William F. Buckley, considered by many to be the father of modern conservatism, famously declared in the mission statement for The National Review that:

"...It stands athwart history, yelling Stop..."

This is, on its face, silly. Is history likely to stop? There is another basic truth about human nature, however. Fools rush in. Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it. Both attitudes are essential. Compromise is the true underlying principle of democracy. Conservative and progressive principles do not cancel each other out, they balance one another, as long as the will to compromise is not abandoned.

Unfortunately, we have abandoned it. We have substituted brute force for compromise. We have allowed the frustration we feel with our co-opted government to spill over into our dealings with those with whom we disagree. Why?

My feeling is that conservatives are frustrated because their function in society is to fail. History will not stop. It can be slowed, but inevitably change will always take place. Do you advocate for LGBT rights? Wait. Eventually you will win. Conservatives will fail. Marijuana legalization? Wait. It will happen. Just as African American rights will win, and women's rights will win, and... everything. One in five Trump supporters regard the abolition of slavery to have been a mistake. Yikes. Do they really believe, in their heart of hearts, that they will succeed in re-instituting slavery? Abortions rights? Block clinics, impose regulations which threaten to shut them down. Work to throw up roadblocks because a frontal approach is recognized as a waste of time. Work to retain power through voter suppression and gerrymandering, because there is no other path to power.

No wonder conservatives are angry. When do they ever win? "Progressivism is a mental disease!", they scream in their frustration. As a consequence, democracy and compromise has failed, but even worse, so has discussion. This forum is a perfect example. Millions of posts which are nothing but people talking past one another. Can this rift be repaired?

"Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it"

I tried to run that concept through the mill, and found so many contradictions.

For example, one could call the Confederacy a rejection of tradition, because it sought to undo the Union, but they were really just mostly southern Conservatives embracing their economic tradition of slavery.

The people today calling themselves Conservatives do not necessarily embrace how Eisenhower, Goldwater, and Reagan viewed Conservatism. Nor do they seem to see eye to eye with people like Irving Kristol, George Will, or William F Buckley...which make what they're doing a rejection of tradition...even though their battle cry is "restore" America.

I think the concept fails in that people simply want to embrace their own traditions. Whether it's 60's style Liberalism, or angry Conservatives that are really just Tea Party/Militia/ Evangelicals.

Tough to simplify anything in politics these days

The Confederacy, it seems to me, was an example of radicalism, which in their case was borne out of a complete rejection of reality. At a time when legal slavery was dying out in every corner of the globe, a time when the slave trade had been dismantled, the Southern radicals sought to reconstitute the slave trade and expand slavery as an institution. Talk abut tone deaf. OTOH, they recognized that their little antebellum fantasy world was doomed once slavery was abolished, and their days of power and privilege were numbered.

My thesis is that conservatism is fracturing because they cannot deliver success. Like the Confederacy they are abandoning a dying tradition and instead adopting radicalism. In this case it is radical obstructionism that they are turning to, and the rank and file of their movement are rejecting that strategy. It's like Monty Python's Royal Society For Putting Things on Top of Other Things. A silly effort, which people have suddenly recognized is an exercise in futility. To advocate for cautious change is sensible, but to advocate for desperate obstructionism is hardly an inspiring vision.

What is being missed about Trump is that he is actually creating a new coalition, one which rejects conservatism. His supporters don't care about conservative principles, and don't even shy away from the notion of raising taxes. Grover Norquist's head must be in danger of exploding like a scene from Scanners.

"My thesis is that conservatism is fracturing because they cannot deliver success"...

Consider this...

If you're talking about Conservatism in America, I believe it's not Conservatism that can't deliver. Within the post "WWII economic prosperity bubble", it is the American worker as a commodity that could not fail from 1945-1995. The rest of the economic world that was devastated by WWII, has caught up, and now both Liberals and Conservatives can't take credit for how easy it used to be. They also can't lay blame on Americans because they won't get elected. So you have what we have today. Liberals and Conservatives saying they'll make things right again, but unable to deliver, and unable to admit they can't.

In many ways what you say is true. Politicians deliver nothing, but they're very adept at claiming credit for things which really aren't their doing.

We're not talking about realities, but perceptions. What do conservatives have to crow about? What's in their "win" column? With every loss, the anger and dissatisfaction of their constituents grows. Same sex marriage? Obamacare? Obama himself? All infuriating losses to the conservative base. What have been the successes which generate bragging rights, honestly earned or not? I can't think of one since Reagan and the fall of the USSR. That's pretty moldy these days. We roll our eyes when Obama wheels out killing Osama again and again. Beating Brezhnev? Who?

Again, what I think is the germane factor from the conservative POV, is that change is inevitable. Standing athwart history and screaming "stop" is a loser, politically speaking, where perception trumps reality (no pun intended).

 

[Toronado3800]

My theory is there are so very few true Constitutional Conservatives this is a moot point.

Now if we are talking about whatever Bush W era supporters believe in small government with big regulations on marriage, the Department of Homeland Security and no income tax there are apparently millions of them.

Being a Constitutional Conservative is a simple thing and you do probably spend much time fighting change. It isnstraight forward and defendable though. I feel they are right in that Obamacare, good or bad, takes a leap of logic to be considered constitutional.

Being a Bush W Teapublican is an excercise in rationalizing how using huge government programs and the power of Uncle Sam to peek into my body is Conservative.

 

[320 Years of History]

Millions of posts which are nothing but people talking past one another. Can this rift be repaired?

Not until and unless people show enough respect for their comrades and opponents to directly address their questions, grievances, and disquietude. Not until and unless the end being of great integrity takes supremacy over being right, takes primacy over fitting in. Both of those things are important, but not more important than being of sterling character. Put another way, not until and unless it becomes paramount among us to without exception treat others as one'd have them treat oneself.

What does it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?
― Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray​

 

[Agit8r]

Just like the Islamic Right (aka "radical Islam") it is a reversion to a less evolved form of society and governance. It is a rebellion against modernity.

 

[toxicmedia]

William F. Buckley, considered by many to be the father of modern conservatism, famously declared in the mission statement for The National Review that:

"...It stands athwart history, yelling Stop..."

This is, on its face, silly. Is history likely to stop? There is another basic truth about human nature, however. Fools rush in. Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it. Both attitudes are essential. Compromise is the true underlying principle of democracy. Conservative and progressive principles do not cancel each other out, they balance one another, as long as the will to compromise is not abandoned.

Unfortunately, we have abandoned it. We have substituted brute force for compromise. We have allowed the frustration we feel with our co-opted government to spill over into our dealings with those with whom we disagree. Why?

My feeling is that conservatives are frustrated because their function in society is to fail. History will not stop. It can be slowed, but inevitably change will always take place. Do you advocate for LGBT rights? Wait. Eventually you will win. Conservatives will fail. Marijuana legalization? Wait. It will happen. Just as African American rights will win, and women's rights will win, and... everything. One in five Trump supporters regard the abolition of slavery to have been a mistake. Yikes. Do they really believe, in their heart of hearts, that they will succeed in re-instituting slavery? Abortions rights? Block clinics, impose regulations which threaten to shut them down. Work to throw up roadblocks because a frontal approach is recognized as a waste of time. Work to retain power through voter suppression and gerrymandering, because there is no other path to power.

No wonder conservatives are angry. When do they ever win? "Progressivism is a mental disease!", they scream in their frustration. As a consequence, democracy and compromise has failed, but even worse, so has discussion. This forum is a perfect example. Millions of posts which are nothing but people talking past one another. Can this rift be repaired?

"Progressives embrace change, and conservatives resist it"

I tried to run that concept through the mill, and found so many contradictions.

For example, one could call the Confederacy a rejection of tradition, because it sought to undo the Union, but they were really just mostly southern Conservatives embracing their economic tradition of slavery.

The people today calling themselves Conservatives do not necessarily embrace how Eisenhower, Goldwater, and Reagan viewed Conservatism. Nor do they seem to see eye to eye with people like Irving Kristol, George Will, or William F Buckley...which make what they're doing a rejection of tradition...even though their battle cry is "restore" America.

I think the concept fails in that people simply want to embrace their own traditions. Whether it's 60's style Liberalism, or angry Conservatives that are really just Tea Party/Militia/ Evangelicals.

Tough to simplify anything in politics these days

The Confederacy, it seems to me, was an example of radicalism, which in their case was borne out of a complete rejection of reality. At a time when legal slavery was dying out in every corner of the globe, a time when the slave trade had been dismantled, the Southern radicals sought to reconstitute the slave trade and expand slavery as an institution. Talk abut tone deaf. OTOH, they recognized that their little antebellum fantasy world was doomed once slavery was abolished, and their days of power and privilege were numbered.

My thesis is that conservatism is fracturing because they cannot deliver success. Like the Confederacy they are abandoning a dying tradition and instead adopting radicalism. In this case it is radical obstructionism that they are turning to, and the rank and file of their movement are rejecting that strategy. It's like Monty Python's Royal Society For Putting Things on Top of Other Things. A silly effort, which people have suddenly recognized is an exercise in futility. To advocate for cautious change is sensible, but to advocate for desperate obstructionism is hardly an inspiring vision.

What is being missed about Trump is that he is actually creating a new coalition, one which rejects conservatism. His supporters don't care about conservative principles, and don't even shy away from the notion of raising taxes. Grover Norquist's head must be in danger of exploding like a scene from Scanners.

"My thesis is that conservatism is fracturing because they cannot deliver success"...

Consider this...

If you're talking about Conservatism in America, I believe it's not Conservatism that can't deliver. Within the post "WWII economic prosperity bubble", it is the American worker as a commodity that could not fail from 1945-1995. The rest of the economic world that was devastated by WWII, has caught up, and now both Liberals and Conservatives can't take credit for how easy it used to be. They also can't lay blame on Americans because they won't get elected. So you have what we have today. Liberals and Conservatives saying they'll make things right again, but unable to deliver, and unable to admit they can't.

In many ways what you say is true. Politicians deliver nothing, but they're very adept at claiming credit for things which really aren't their doing.

We're not talking about realities, but perceptions. What do conservatives have to crow about? What's in their "win" column? With every loss, the anger and dissatisfaction of their constituents grows. Same sex marriage? Obamacare? Obama himself? All infuriating losses to the conservative base. What have been the successes which generate bragging rights, honestly earned or not? I can't think of one since Reagan and the fall of the USSR. That's pretty moldy these days. We roll our eyes when Obama wheels out killing Osama again and again. Beating Brezhnev? Who?

Again, what I think is the germane factor from the conservative POV, is that change is inevitable. Standing athwart history and screaming "stop" is a loser, politically speaking, where perception trumps reality (no pun intended).

"What do conservatives have to crow about?"

I realize we're using the term "conservative" to describe specific types of Republicans, for lack of a more accurate long winded term. But you hit it on the head. Besides Reagan, every Republican Presidency since WWII, except Eisenhower, has ended in disaster, or at the very least, a recession. Nixon, resigned. GHWB, soft landing recession. GW, hard landing recession. Of course, one might argue that the Dems only have 2 to point to, LBJ, and Clinton, and the Republicans can point to Eisenhower and Reagan. That's why the GOP is so dead set to claim Obama's presidency was a failure, when the stats show it wasn't. They can't have the score 3 to 2.

The US is changing, and the GOP is simply not appealing to increasing diversity