Most successful fighter in WWII

[Vrenn]

I am not well versed in regards to the PTO, but it looks to me that the Zero was more or less the only capable fighter aircraft the Japanese had. As such the scores obtained by Zero pilots wouldn't come as a surprise. After the Zero they had nothing in the pipeline that could match any contemporary Allied aircraft.

BTW; what does Zero stand for - or why did the US/UK call it as such?

The dot like the star on the US birds. The Dot was a zero so that was what it was nicknamed early on.

And it wasn't the only capable fighter. The Kate KI-27 was just as good. The Zero A6M was Navy while the Kate was Army. Both were construct very similar.

N1K2-J First introduce late 1942. Had this been introduced earlier, the Carrier Wars would have been a disaster for the US. This thing smoked both the F6F and the F4U and even would fight the P-51 toe to toe and win in an attrition fight. It got the bullet proofed glass, armor around the pilot, self sealing tanks and more. And a top speed of over 400 mph. Had they been introduced just months before.........

 

[AZrailwhale]

I am not well versed in regards to the PTO, but it looks to me that the Zero was more or less the only capable fighter aircraft the Japanese had. As such the scores obtained by Zero pilots wouldn't come as a surprise. After the Zero they had nothing in the pipeline that could match any contemporary Allied aircraft.

BTW; what does Zero stand for - or why did the US/UK call it as such?

The Zero’s code name was Zeke. Not much easier to use than Zero,

 

[Kruska]

Type 0, the year in the Japanese calendar it was adopted. That’s how the Japanese Navy identified their weapons.
But the Japanese did have more successful planes. The Nakajima Hayabusa (Oscar) was more maneuverable, if much more lightly armed, than the Zero and very successful against the RAF fighters in the Burmese theater and against US fighters in the New Guinea area. The later Ki-61 Hein (Tony), Ki-84 Hayate (Frank), Ki-100 and Mitsubishi J2M Raiden (Jack) all were competitive with the American fighters of their generations.

Ah.. type 0 - okay I didn't know that - thanks.

I am aware of the other Japanese aircraft - but mostly far too small numbers in action - and not a single one of them being really superior to US contemporary aircraft, aside the period during 1942.
They had absolutely nothing that could match a F4U, F6F or P-47, P-51's - not to mention the disastrous Japanese pilot training from 1940 onward. Very simmilar to the Italians - initially some good aircraft, but hopeless from 1942 onward.

The Brit's really only had in majority antiquated aircraft in Asia - throughout the war. Aside from some Mossies/Spits and US aircraft.

 

[Kruska]

N1K2-J First introduce late 1942.

The "George"? with it's double flap system? AFAIK that aircraft didn't show up before August 1944.

 

[westwall]

The "George"? with it's double flap system? AFAIK that aircraft didn't show up before August 1944.

Look up the "Jack"

 

[Kruska]

Look up the "Jack"

Sorry I don't get your meaning. I am sure that you know that the Mitsubishi Raiden has nothing to do with the Kawaishi N1K2 "George"
What am I missing?

 

[westwall]

Sorry I don't get your meaning. I am sure that you know that the Mitsubishi Raiden has nothing to do with the Kawaishi N1K2 "George"
What am I missing?

You said the Japanese had no fighters of note other than the Zero.

 

[Vrenn]

The "George"? with it's double flap system? AFAIK that aircraft didn't show up before August 1944.

It was introduced in late 1942 but it didn't go into full production until 1944. And even then, it took a few months to get it into the pilots hands. By then, the war was lost.

 

[Vrenn]

You said the Japanese had no fighters of note other than the Zero.

Stop playing the MAGAt Gotcha routine on him. English is not his first language.

 

[westwall]

Stop playing the MAGAt Gotcha routine on him. English is not his first language.

I'm not. He asked a question. I clarified. I like him. He asks good questions.

 

[Vrenn]

I'm not. He asked a question. I clarified. I like him. He asks good questions.

So do I. Usually, we just get the two sides of the American views. Having him involved gives one that is different. Can we keep him?

 

[westwall]

So do I. Usually, we just get the two sides of the American views. Having him involved gives one that is different. Can we keep him?

I'm not attacking him.

 

[Mushroom]

Later on the Japanese developed the Raiden. That was a very capable fighter, but far too late to have any effect on the war.

Not really, the J2M entered production by 1943. However, by that time bombing raids on Japanese industrial centers were creating havoc with their production. This was the main reason they were never able to produce very many of them.

 

[westwall]

Not really, the J2M entered production by 1943. However, by that time bombing raids on Japanese industrial centers were creating havoc with their production. This was the main reason they were never able to produce very many of them.

Later on is I believe later than when the Zero was developed, so yeah, I am correct.

 

[Mushroom]

Later on is I believe later than when the Zero was developed, so yeah, I am correct.

Yes, it was developed later than the A6M5. And it could have made a difference, if they had been able to produce more than a handful of them in the over 2 and a half years they were in production.

To make a comparison, it was actually developed at the same time as the F6F Hellcat. And during the time the Japanese made 621 J2Ms, the US cranked out over 12,200 F6Fs. That is a numerical superiority of almost 20 to 1. With so few in comparison, it does not even matter how good it was. It was first fielded barely a year into a war (1942) that lasted until the last half of 1945. So it was hardly "late", just in insufficient numbers to make a difference.

 

[westwall]

Yes, it was developed later than the A6M5. And it could have made a difference, if they had been able to produce more than a handful of them in the over 2 and a half years they were in production.

To make a comparison, it was actually developed at the same time as the F6F Hellcat. And during the time the Japanese made 621 J2Ms, the US cranked out over 12,200 F6Fs. That is a numerical superiority of almost 20 to 1. With so few in comparison, it does not even matter how good it was. It was first fielded barely a year into a war (1942) that lasted until the last half of 1945. So it was hardly "late", just in insufficient numbers to make a difference.

All of your points are certainly valid. So was mine. In point of fact the USA produced more war material than the rest of the world combined.

This is just more evidence of that.

 

[Mushroom]

All of your points are certainly valid. So was mine. In point of fact the USA produced more war material than the rest of the world combined.

Very true. But it was that, and not being "late" that was the problem. Both of the major Axis powers had significant challenges once the Allies started going after their industrial capability.

Something the two major Allied powers had much less of a problem with. The US was largely immune to such attacks by distance. And the UK had places it could manufacture war goods without worry, like Canada. Almost 2,000 Valentine tanks were made in Canada, as were over 2,000 RAM tanks. This gave the UK some much needed breathing room as the attacks by Germany never completely crippled their armaments industry.

In total, Canada built over 50,000 tanks, 40,000 anti-aircraft guns, 800,000 transport vehicles, and almost 2,000,000 small arms. And was a major industrialization in a country that prior to that had been almost entirely based on agriculture and raw materials.

 

[westwall]

Very true. But it was that, and not being "late" that was the problem. Both of the major Axis powers had significant challenges once the Allies started going after their industrial capability.

Something the two major Allied powers had much less of a problem with. The US was largely immune to such attacks by distance. And the UK had places it could manufacture war goods without worry, like Canada. Almost 2,000 Valentine tanks were made in Canada, as were over 2,000 RAM tanks. This gave the UK some much needed breathing room as the attacks by Germany never completely crippled their armaments industry.

In total, Canada built over 50,000 tanks, 40,000 anti-aircraft guns, 800,000 transport vehicles, and almost 2,000,000 small arms. And was a major industrialization in a country that prior to that had been almost entirely based on agriculture and raw materials.

They had problems before that. The nature of both the Japanese and nazi industrial systems is they were rife with corruption, incompetence, and wasted effort.

There was no real impact on them from a military standpoint till we began attacking their POL infrastructure.

That wasn't until 1944 in any meaningful way.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

It is certainly correct to state that the US fly-boy's didn't have the "practical" experience prior to the war, small exception US pilots serving in the RAF or the ROC (Flying Tigers).
But this Luftwaffe "experience" is still an extremely overrated topic in WW2 literature.

The amount of Luftwaffe fighter pilots that had served in the Spanish Civil war (like my father) wasn't really significant - and they had losses too, but tactical experience was brought in by those pilots to their home-units in Germany. Supposedly the 4 finger formation (Schwarm) broken down into two wings (Rotte) was developed by the Luftwaffe during their tour of Spain.
However the RAF had already developed the same basic principle on their own and started to make use of it during the Luftwaffe attacks onto the Lowlands and France.

Radar had even enabled the RAF to develop tactics involving very large formations - which the Luftwaffe only managed to achieve by the mid of 1942.

However without a doubt the nation with the most elaborate-extensive flight training already before the war, was the USA. And this really stared to pay off once the USA entered the war.
The average US rookie before the war had 250 training flight hours under his belt - before even being transferred into an active unit, gaining a further 50-100 flying hours.

The Luftwaffe (Generation of the Aces, or Battle of Britain) had 200h in average - there are very few Luftwaffe pilots like my father who had 350h+ before the war broke out.
Due to Hitler constantly using the Luftwaffe as his main "intimidation" force during 1936-39 towards the Brits and French in regards to the Rhineland occupation, annexation of Austria and Sudetenland - almost all basic flight schools were working at half capacity, the advanced flight schools at 30-50% and the fighter schools were almost entirely out of operation from 1937 to 1939 - the remains of Jagdfliegerschule Schleissheim (only 1 of two in existence) was down to a single squadron.

As such the advanced flying school and fighter-school experience could only be obtained at the respective active wings - and a lot of brown-nosing was required to get that additional experience. Off these approx. 2000 Luftwaffe fighter-pilots with what the Luftwaffe considered to be the best (in regards to training hours and Spain experience) - around 60% lost their lives during the Lowland/France and BoB. What came after that had approximately 100-120h of combined flight training. from 1943 this figure dropped to 60-80h and from end of 1944 it was around 30-40h. 1945 onward most of these boys could even get their aircraft of the ground.

Germany's top ace Hartmann, received his basic fight training at the school lead at the time by my uncle. He wasn't even considered to be a good pilot. By the time he reached his front-unit, minus the private hours he had obtained due to his mother and glider school - his total flight-hours comprised of less the 120h. IIRC he and his mates even busted a bunch of Ju-87's that they were supposed to transfer to the front. He was one of those very few who "enjoyed" and "survived" rigorous advanced flight training at his active unit for more then 6! month.

The Luftwaffe's advantage in the first year of the war - was the element of surprise attacks (Blitzkrieg) that accounted for more then 70% of enemy aircraft destroyed on the ground. Similar results were obtained in the first 6 month upon attacking the SU. Actually exactly as to what later the Luftwaffe faced in regards to Allied superiority in numbers
with most of the Luftwaffe assets being destroyed on the ground.

The US aircraft also are constantly underrated in the common literature. Germany's supposedly best fighter-aircraft the Fw-190 was in vast majority allocated towards ground attack wings and not fighter-wings. So the Luftwaffe's main fighter component was made up of Bf-109's and their variants.

The Americans had the P-38, P-39, F4f and the P-40 - all four basically more or less on par with the Bf-109 - and an even better aspect towards versatility. Even the P-36A was accredited with downing two A6M2 Zero's during the Pearl-harbor attack. Now add an average of 250 training flight-hours on top of that - and the best prepared air-force in 1940-1941 was already that of the USA. Put on top the production output of aircraft and training output of pilots from Jan 1943 onward plus the new aircraft types as the P-47, P-51, F4U-4 and F6f - impossible to match for any other air-force.

I can't quite follow onto your perception of the Luftwaffe wing-man - just having a lookout. He was totally integrated by the leader so as to take advantage if the leader overshot, missed the target, failed towards total distruction or the opponent out-maneuvering the leader. (flight curve interception). it was not uncommon for the wing-man to actually make the kill once a dogfight ensued.
However many Luftwaffe pilots with, "sore throats" (eager for a Knights Cross) claimed their respective wing-man's contribution, couldn't care less about their wing-mans safety, or even ordered their wing-man to stay out of their target pursue.
There is a reason why amongst the surviving long time Luftwaffe pilots - those NAZI propagated/chosen Aces, later Allied literature propagated aces - were in majority disliked - even hated. Galland, Wick, Gollob, Marseille and v. Werra - were some of the most prominent characters amongst those kind of pilots during the BoB.

Germany had lost the war on the ground, on the sea and in the air the moment the US started to supply the UK and the SU prior to even the USA entering the war themselves.

Did you know the Flying Tigers were not operational in China until 12 days AFTER Pearl Harbor?

 

[Stryder50]

Did you know the Flying Tigers were not operational in China until 12 days AFTER Pearl Harbor?

Technically that was the date of their first combat. They had been in Burma since late Summer 1941, first contingents that is, but were involved in training. About 2/3 had no training as fighter pilots and only a few had flown the P-40 prior to go over to there. They were going "operational" just before Dec. 7,1941 but mostly spent getting deployed to initial combat bases.