Cognitive Dissonance

[Blues Man]

Whatever works is my motto. For awhile I was eating virtually no meat, poultry or fish simply because I preferred fruit and vegetables. And I was conscious to combine veggies to create complete proteins. But my doctor said my blood work would be better if I would include some animal protein. So I still don't eat a lot of meat or poultry but I do eat some fish and I did become healthier.

Also all studies conducted report that people undergoing cancer treatment generally tolerate it better and stay healthier if they do consume substantial amounts of animal protein. Why? Dunno. But that's the results of several studies on the subject.

Certainly those who avoid a lot of processed foods, salt laden, bad fat, etc. are going to be healthier than those who don't avoid that stuff.

The Japanese people as a demographic are the healthiest, longest lived people on Earth despite a high salt diet. They have few issues of cholesterol and high blood pressure and their diet consists of natural vegetables and lots of fish and seafood. They do not consume much refined sugar if any.

Humankind has been carnivorous or omnivorous, rarely ever herbivorous, according to most paleontological scientist dating back at least to the Pleistocene epoch more than two million years ago.
Those early hunters probably didn't give a moment's thought to the discomfort of the animals they killed for food.

That humankind has now evolved to care about other creatures on Earth does not of necessity require them to be vegan or vegetarian. One can be carnivorous and still demand ethical treatment of animals. And in my opinion it is cognitive dissonance to care about ethical treatment of all animals but not ethical treatment of all one's fellow human beings.

There is nothing in meat that we cannot get from other sources.

Yes meat is a convenient way to get B 12 and some other trace minerals but it is not necessary.

And I realize that we in developed countries have an advantage which is why veganism really is not an option for every single person in the world.

And I don't think I ever implied that it is necessary for anyone to become vegan. All I said was that meat is unnecessary. I never would have thought that until I decided to give up meat and saw how my health improved. And the thing is i was not unhealthy by our standards but we have accepted that people will be on blood pressure and cholesterol medication.

My endurance improved and my recovery time from really strenuous workouts improved

There really was no negative for me at all.

 

[ding]

Wow, I'm honestly amazed you said that, because it is well established that the exact opposite is true, according to numerous studies going back many years. High amounts of animal protein are linked to cancer.

In fact, there are TONS of stories of people who had cancer and beat their cancer - not because of chemo or other money-making treatments, but by radically changing their diet and going to a strictly whole food plantbased diet.

Here's some stuff to look at....







And I highly recommend watching this next one. This is a guy named Chris who had colon cancer in his late 20's, and decided he didn't want to go the standard chemo route, so he radically changed his diet and beat cancer. Now he has a fantastic YouTube channel called "Chris beat cancer" that is filled with tons of testimonies of people who beat cancer and other diseases by simply changing their diet.

Here is his story, this is a great interview, very interesting and worth watching:

It's not animal protein per se that is beneficial, it's getting away from your body burning sugar that provides the benefit. And to do that one must replace carbohydrates with fat.

 

[sparky]

And there is absolutely no cognitive dissonance in that.

I don’t see any of that as cognitive dissonance.

You two are being far too kind ......

While it didn't exist back when i started, the system developed debriefings

They were simply a roundtable of those involved in any horrific event , led by qualified counsel

This is where participants rationalized their actions and responses to the chaotic events humanity assumed.

So you see, when nothing one was taught and trained to do worked, it's hard for many of us to keep believing in it at all


peace out....~S~

 

[ding]

You two are being far too kind ......

That's the first time I have ever heard that said about me.

 

[ding]

So you see, when nothing one was taught and trained to do worked, it's hard for many of us to keep believing in it at all

Real life is messy. It doesn't always go as planned. Or even often.

 

[ding]

Is saying you know eating meat is wrong but you are going to do it anyway and example of cognitive dissonance?

No.

 

[ding]

Cognitive dissonance is when your beliefs are at odds with your actions so you change your beliefs to match your actions. It's a defense mechanism. Which isn't needed if one owns his actions.

Believing that killing is wrong and then rationalizing killing animals is good is cognitive dissonance. The same goes for abortion.

My belief that killing is wrong doesn't change just because I knowingly choose to do the wrong thing. It's the rationalization of actions to conform to beliefs that were at odds with the actions which creates cognitive dissonance. If one knowingly does the wrong thing and owns his actions there is no dissonance.

I could argue that when I burn fat instead of sugar my health is better to rationalize that killing animals for food is good and just, but that wouldn't be true because killing is wrong. Cognitive dissonance would be rationalizing that killing isn't wrong.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Did you even bother to watch the two short videos she provided? I know the answer.

There are answers. People should be open minded enough to seek truth. Instead, I find the vast majority of people come with an existing set of ideas and will go to ridiculous extremes to protect their idea babies.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Wow, I'm honestly amazed you said that, because it is well established that the exact opposite is true, according to numerous studies going back many years. High amounts of animal protein are linked to cancer.

In fact, there are TONS of stories of people who had cancer and beat their cancer - not because of chemo or other money-making treatments, but by radically changing their diet and going to a strictly whole food plantbased diet.

Here's some stuff to look at....







And I highly recommend watching this next one. This is a guy named Chris who had colon cancer in his late 20's, and decided he didn't want to go the standard chemo route, so he radically changed his diet and beat cancer. Now he has a fantastic YouTube channel called "Chris beat cancer" that is filled with tons of testimonies of people who beat cancer and other diseases by simply changing their diet.

Here is his story, this is a great interview, very interesting and worth watching:

I never knew that about casein

So many links if people just search it out

Dairy products linked to increased risk of cancer | University of Oxford

First major study to investigate dairy consumption and cancer risk in Chinese adults has found that greater intake was associated with higher risks of liver cancer and female breast cancer.

www.ox.ac.uk

 

[Foxfyre]

There is nothing in meat that we cannot get from other sources.

Yes meat is a convenient way to get B 12 and some other trace minerals but it is not necessary.

And I realize that we in developed countries have an advantage which is why veganism really is not an option for every single person in the world.

And I don't think I ever implied that it is necessary for anyone to become vegan. All I said was that meat is unnecessary. I never would have thought that until I decided to give up meat and saw how my health improved. And the thing is i was not unhealthy by our standards but we have accepted that people will be on blood pressure and cholesterol medication.

My endurance improved and my recovery time from really strenuous workouts improved

There really was no negative for me at all.

Nor have I implied there is anything wrong with being vegan or vegetarian.

FYI, yes a vegan or vegetarian diet can be healthy but it does require a great deal of knowledge about nutrition to furnish sufficient protein and some other nutrients. Yes for many it can lower blood pressure and bad cholesterol and has other benefits as does giving up red meat and some other animal proteins in favor of oily fish and lean poultry. Such diets help ward off cancer and other uglies the same.

Nevertheless there are a lot of vegans and vegetarians who must still take some blood pressure and cholesterol control meds and their diet does not protect against some cancers. At least one study indicates a slightly higher incidence of colorectal cancer in vegetarians. So while not knocking the health benefits of eliminating bad fats/proteins and increasing fruit/vegetable intact, genetics still plays a key role in our overall health.

Which is to say that one person cannot guarantee that his/her experience will be as equally effective for another and we should be careful in presumptions for that reason.

But honestly if you wanted this to be a thread about the evils of animal protein and the virtues of veganism/vegetarianism, it would have been more intellectually honest to indicate that in the thread title rather than the much broader concept of cognitive dissonance.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I wonder how many vegans/vegetarians keep a cat or other pets that cannot thrive without meat?

 

[Foxfyre]

That's the first time I have ever heard that said about me.

I don't know you outside of what you write here. But based on what you write here, I sense a kindness in you. If that bothers you, well, too bad.

I have also developed a new appreciation for you and sparky for the depth and scope of your intellect and ability to see things more abstractly and with more nuance than the hard core fanatics are able to do.

If it is cognitive dissonance to enjoy my breakfast eggs while hating and speaking out against etc. the unethical treatment of animals, then would it not also be cognitive dissonance to insist that people MUST assume all animals are treated unethically when it is explained to them that all animals are NOT treated unethically?

The arguments in some of these things can get pretty silly.

Cognitive dissonance: if I criticize a person's specific action, I must criticize ALL the person's actions.

Cognitive dissonance: observation that if I support a person's policy or action I admire everything about the person.

Or to appreciate some things or some aspect while criticizing others is somehow hypocrisy.

Or. . .are the above examples cognitive dissonance or just dogmatic or prejudicial extremism? Sometimes I struggle to differentiate.

 

[Blues Man]

Nor have I implied there is anything wrong with being vegan or vegetarian.

FYI, yes a vegan or vegetarian diet can be healthy but it does require a great deal of knowledge about nutrition to furnish sufficient protein and some other nutrients. Yes for many it can lower blood pressure and bad cholesterol and has other benefits as does giving up red meat and some other animal proteins in favor of oily fish and lean poultry. Such diets help ward off cancer and other uglies the same.

Nevertheless there are a lot of vegans and vegetarians who must still take some blood pressure and cholesterol control meds and their diet does not protect against some cancers. At least one study indicates a slightly higher incidence of colorectal cancer in vegetarians. So while not knocking the health benefits of eliminating bad fats/proteins and increasing fruit/vegetable intact, genetics still plays a key role in our overall health.

Which is to say that one person cannot guarantee that his/her experience will be as equally effective for another and we should be careful in presumptions for that reason.

But honestly if you wanted this to be a thread about the evils of animal protein and the virtues of veganism/vegetarianism, it would have been more intellectually honest to indicate that in the thread title rather than the much broader concept of cognitive dissonance.

Speaking of cognitive dissonance, I wonder how many vegans/vegetarians keep a cat or other pets that cannot thrive without meat?

It really isn't as hard as people like to think it is. And there are many free resources available to learn the basics.

And in all honesty people think they need far more protein than they actually do. As long as you are eating a sufficient number of calories that provide the 9 essential amino acids your body can manufacture all the protein it needs.

And the other myth that you just illustrated is that people think vegans and vegetarians automatically eat the healthiest of diets. This is way off the mark. There are thousands of vegetarian and vegan junk foods out there.

Veganism is not a diet or a health decision. It is purely an ethical position. Oreos are vegan for example. French fries cooked in vegetable oil are vegan

There are all kinds of unhealthy diets that contain no animal products.

The whole food plant based diet is the pinnacle of the healthy vegan diet and unfortunately not too many vegans adhere to it.

This is the diet that has been associated with lower risks of cancers, heart disease, stroke etc.

 

[Foxfyre]

You two are being far too kind ......

While it didn't exist back when i started, the system developed debriefings

They were simply a roundtable of those involved in any horrific event , led by qualified counsel

This is where participants rationalized their actions and responses to the chaotic events humanity assumed.

So you see, when nothing one was taught and trained to do worked, it's hard for many of us to keep believing in it at all


peace out....~S~

Point understood. I personally prefer to assume that nobody knows everything there is to know about anything or is capable of making the best choice in all circumstances. And all we can do is the best we can do in any given circumstance, and forgive ourselves with the best we can do or the choice we make hoping it is the best is not adequate.

Perhaps there is a bit of cognitive dissonance in expecting more of ourselves than we would expect of anybody else.

 

[Foxfyre]

It really isn't as hard as people like to think it is. And there are many free resources available to learn the basics.

And in all honesty people think they need far more protein than they actually do. As long as you are eating a sufficient number of calories that provide the 9 essential amino acids your body can manufacture all the protein it needs.

And the other myth that you just illustrated is that people think vegans and vegetarians automatically eat the healthiest of diets. This is way off the mark. There are thousands of vegetarian and vegan junk foods out there.

Veganism is not a diet or a health decision. It is purely an ethical position. Oreos are vegan for example. French fries cooked in vegetable oil are vegan

There are all kinds of unhealthy diets that contain no animal products.

The whole food plant based diet is the pinnacle of the healthy vegan diet and unfortunately not too many vegans adhere to it.

This is the diet that has been associated with lower risks of cancers, heart disease, stroke etc.

We are on mostly the same page here. The way to get on the same page is to agree that it is possible to consume animal based products--milk, eggs, butter, cottage cheese and some other cheeses, yogurt or lean poultry and fish--and still be both healthy and ethical. That involves no cognitive dissonance whatsoever.

Nor does the vegan who has a carnivorous cat as a fur friend necessarily engage in cognitive dissonance. He/she can still choose a vegan diet as a matter of ethics for him/her but understand that the cat must have animal protein to be healthy. It isn't cognitive dissonance to understand how the world works in these things.

However, for the vegan to presume to judge the omnivorous other probably does involve some cognitive dissonance if the vegan doesn't also demand that the fruit and veggies he/she consumes are produced and harvested ethically and responsibly.

Again to care more about the ethical treatment of animals than we do about the ethical treatment of other humans is definitely a form of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Blues Man]

We are on mostly the same page here. The way to get on the same page is to agree that it is possible to consume animal based products--milk, eggs, butter, cottage cheese and some other cheeses, yogurt or lean poultry and fish--and still be both healthy and ethical. That involves no cognitive dissonance whatsoever.

Nor does the vegan who has a carnivorous cat as a fur friend necessarily engage in cognitive dissonance. He/she can still choose a vegan diet as a matter of ethics for him/her but understand that the cat must have animal protein to be healthy. It isn't cognitive dissonance to understand how the world works in these things.

However, for the vegan to presume to judge the omnivorous other probably does involve some cognitive dissonance if the vegan doesn't also demand that the fruit and veggies he/she consumes are produced and harvested ethically and responsibly.

Again to care more about the ethical treatment of animals than we do about the ethical treatment of other humans is definitely a form of cognitive dissonance.

It can be possible but that excludes all products produced by factory farming since it is inherently cruel by necessity.

And the example I gave was indeed illustrative of cognitive dissonance.

Being horrified at a guy running a lawn mower over baby chickens but not being horrified at the factory egg farming industry macerating baby chicks alive is textbook cognitive dissonance.

For there to be no cognitive dissonance then every person who eats meat should know exactly where it came from and should know exactly how than animal was raised, slaughtered and processed. And there is little or no chance of that happening because for the most part people just don't want to know.

I don't know if what you say is true about vegans putting the ethical treatment of animals over that of people. Is any vegan here advocating any harm to people?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Wow! This brings back memories! I followed his path almost 5 years ago. I probably would have done the chemo if I was told to. Fortunately, surgery is all they did, but I followed the same path. I just subscribed.

The book he talks about is why I call the "Eden diet" GOD FOOD.

Thanks for posting this!

 

[Foxfyre]

It can be possible but that excludes all products produced by factory farming since it id inherently cruel by necessity.

And the example I gave was indeed illustrative of cognitive dissonance.

Being horrified at a guy running a lawn mower over baby chickens but not being horrified at the factory egg farming industry macerating baby chicks alive is textbook cognitive dissonance.

For there to be no cognitive dissonance then every person who eats meat should know exactly where it came from and should know exactly how than animal was raised, slaughtered and processed. And there is little or no chance of that happening because for the most part people just don't want to know.

I don't know if what you say is true about vegans putting the ethical treatment of animals over that of people. Is any vegan here advocating any harm to people?

A vegan who decries using any animal product for food but has no problem with late term abortions or people being misused to produce fruit and vegetables or unethical farming practices used to produce fruit and vegetables is engaging in cognitive dissonance too.

Intellectual honesty has to be a two way street here.

The examples you used were fine to show cognitive dissonance but it is also cognitive dissonance to insist that everybody who consumes animal products is guilty of that even when they admit that sometimes animals who produce or provide food are not mistreated in any way.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Again to care more about the ethical treatment of animals than we do about the ethical treatment of other humans

You say some weird and uninformed things.

It's NOT one or the other. You're reaching. And you're using the pro abort argument. If you say it's wrong to kill unborn babies, you hate women

 

[buttercup]

It really isn't as hard as people like to think it is. And there are many free resources available to learn the basics.

And in all honesty people think they need far more protein than they actually do. As long as you are eating a sufficient number of calories that provide the 9 essential amino acids your body can manufacture all the protein it needs.

And the other myth that you just illustrated is that people think vegans and vegetarians automatically eat the healthiest of diets. This is way off the mark. There are thousands of vegetarian and vegan junk foods out there.

Veganism is not a diet or a health decision. It is purely an ethical position. Oreos are vegan for example. French fries cooked in vegetable oil are vegan

There are all kinds of unhealthy diets that contain no animal products.

The whole food plant based diet is the pinnacle of the healthy vegan diet and unfortunately not too many vegans adhere to it.

This is the diet that has been associated with lower risks of cancers, heart disease, stroke etc.

Excellent post, and I was going to say the exact same thing you said in the first sentence. It's not hard!

I don't even try to "get enough protein" yet I always do, every single time I've had my bloodwork done, I've never once had a deficiency, I'm always in the 'good range' on nearly everything down the list.

Thank you for dismantling some of the common myths people have about veganism (which I admit, I once had too).... Hopefully these myths based on sincere ignorance will be quashed once and for all, so we can all move forward instead of continuously having to correct the misconceptions.

 

[Blues Man]

A vegan who decries using any animal product for food but has no problem with late term abortions or people being misused to produce fruit and vegetables or unethical farming practices used to produce fruit and vegetables is engaging in cognitive dissonance too.

Intellectual honesty has to be a two way street here.

The examples you used were fine to show cognitive dissonance but it is also cognitive dissonance to insist that everybody who consumes animal products is guilty of that even when they admit that sometimes animals who produce or provide food are not mistreated in any way.

No person is forced to labor in an abusive setting.
No person can be forced to work for anyone so unless you're talking about slavery

As far as unethical farming practices go isn't the animal product industry one of the worst offenders there?


And if I take veganism as an ethical stance because I believe that meat is unnecessary why do I have to agree that it's OK to raise any animal for no reason than to eat it ?

Really if anyone says they eat meat because they like to and they really don't care where it comes from or how any animals are treated anywhere then there is no cognitive dissonance. But getting all outraged that some guy ate a swan that lives in the park and calling for his arrest while eating a bucket of chicken is cognitive dissonance.