Church shooter stopped by armed citizen today? Lives saved by good guy with a gun?

[MindWars]

The leftist weaklings think it's horrible those people were able to save others and themselves...
and below is how these losers turn it into a black white thing......

Southern Poverty Law Center Silent on Domestic Terror Attack Against Jews

 

[2aguy]

Who needs to carry a gun to church? People who know that evil people target good people for murder....

It is being reported that this shooter may have been stopped by armed citizens with their legal guns....saving lives, stopping the killing...

The shooter may have had a rifle, and was stopped by a good guy with a pistol...

BREAKING: Church Shooting Reported In Texas, Armed Churchgoers Appear To Have Stopped It, Reporter Suggests

“It appears that a gunman shot two church members at back of auditorium with a footlong weapon, then a member shot the gunman with a pistol,” Ross wrote. “This is just based on me watching the video again. Screaming afterward in the church. So tragic. Two quick shots at back, then another shot. Then at least three members (I believe) with pistols [walking] toward where the gunman appeared to fall.”

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.

Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.

BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says

Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------

The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders

And your point is?

you don't know???
see post # 108 and firearms do a lot more bad than good

And you are wrong...again.....

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.




==============
Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
--------
It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
--------------
How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The OP has had a wonderful time imagining that someone MAY HAVE used their firearm in a defensive manner at this mass shooting.

If the MAY HAVE turns out to be true, then that is ONE case on that day.

Where are the other 4000 cases from the same day? The day before? The day before that?

The OP believes that we have about 4000 defensive uses of firearms in this nation EVERY DAY.

What do his fellow nutbags feel about that math?

I don't believe anything...I am citing actual research by both government and private researchers into the topic of gun self defense.........they are the ones, over 17 different studies, that found those numbers...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

FOUR THOUSAND TIMES PER DAY!!!!!!!

You're a hoot!!

 

[2aguy]

Who needs to carry a gun to church? People who know that evil people target good people for murder....

It is being reported that this shooter may have been stopped by armed citizens with their legal guns....saving lives, stopping the killing...

The shooter may have had a rifle, and was stopped by a good guy with a pistol...

BREAKING: Church Shooting Reported In Texas, Armed Churchgoers Appear To Have Stopped It, Reporter Suggests

“It appears that a gunman shot two church members at back of auditorium with a footlong weapon, then a member shot the gunman with a pistol,” Ross wrote. “This is just based on me watching the video again. Screaming afterward in the church. So tragic. Two quick shots at back, then another shot. Then at least three members (I believe) with pistols [walking] toward where the gunman appeared to fall.”

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.

Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.

BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says

Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------

The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders

And your point is?

you don't know???
see post # 108 and firearms do a lot more bad than good

And you can't explain this fact.....which shows you don't know what you are talking about...


Over the last 26 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....

More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.

Actual Result:

In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....

In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.



Whatever the crime rate does......as more Americans owned more guns the crime rate did not go up....so again...



Britain...
More Guns = More Gun Crime
Britain had access to guns before they banned them.....they had low gun crime, low gun murder.
They banned guns, the gun murder rate spiked for 10 years then returned to the same level...
Your Theory again....
More guns = More Gun Crime
Guns Banned creates no change? That means banning guns for law abiding gun owners had no effect on gun crime.
When your theory states one thing, and you implement your theory, and nothing changes....in science, that means your theory is wrong...
-------

Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.

 

[2aguy]

The OP has had a wonderful time imagining that someone MAY HAVE used their firearm in a defensive manner at this mass shooting.

If the MAY HAVE turns out to be true, then that is ONE case on that day.

Where are the other 4000 cases from the same day? The day before? The day before that?

The OP believes that we have about 4000 defensive uses of firearms in this nation EVERY DAY.

What do his fellow nutbags feel about that math?

I don't believe anything...I am citing actual research by both government and private researchers into the topic of gun self defense.........they are the ones, over 17 different studies, that found those numbers...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

FOUR THOUSAND TIMES PER DAY!!!!!!!

You're a hoot!!

Oh, you missed it...again...let me show you the research again.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

 

[August West]

Many of these rampage shootings end with the NRA endorsed gun owner killing himself. Someone being on the scene who is armed is irrelevant

Technicolor gun spammer doesn`t understand why we have more church shootings than countries without the disaster known as the 2nd amendment.

 

[2aguy]

Many of these rampage shootings end with the NRA endorsed gun owner killing himself. Someone being on the scene who is armed is irrelevant

Technicolor gun spammer doesn`t understand why we have more church shootings than countries without the disaster known as the 2nd amendment.

And asshats like you don't understand it has nothing to do with their gun control laws....Britain is being flooded with illegal guns, the weapon of choice for French, and Swedish criminals is the fully automatic military rifle....you don't understand this issue........and now, as their demographics are changing they are experiencing more gun violence.......they have had the benefit of different cultural expereinces.....and now they are about to see what importing violent 3rd world males into their countries will do for their gun crime rates...you moron.

 

[2aguy]

Many of these rampage shootings end with the NRA endorsed gun owner killing himself. Someone being on the scene who is armed is irrelevant

Technicolor gun spammer doesn`t understand why we have more church shootings than countries without the disaster known as the 2nd amendment.

Hey...moron...do you realize that shotguns are one of the only guns allowed in Britain? That they are accessible to people in Britain? Which means...you doofus.....that this shooting could have happened in Britain as well? On top of that...the British police have stated to their press that they can't stop the increasing....let me repeat that for you tiny brain.....increasing....flow of illegal guns into their country..........dittos France and the rest of Europe....

You don't know what you are talking about...when it happens in Britain, they won't have people on scene to stop it....you moron...

 

[2aguy]

The truth about this church shooting.....

The Heroes of Yesterday's Church Shooting Were the First Responders in the Pews - The Truth About Guns

In other words, there was no shortage of good guys with guns in that church yesterday. Something that unquestionably saved lives and was acknowledged by responding law enforcement and politicians.

It cannot be overstated how important it is that everyone recognize what took place here today. The citizens who were inside that church undoubtedly saved 242 other parishioners.

And that might get swept aside in this whole conversation about active shooter response and God knows law enforcement has done a whole bunch of work to make our response better. We needed to do that.

But we’re starting to find out that, as the Lt. Governor mentioned, over half of these [mass shootings] are over before we get there. And I want to commend the chief and his department. Their response was…it’s never gonna get faster than that. It was miraculous.

So the true heroes in this are the people who were sitting in those pews today and responded — the immediate responders — that saved their fellow citizens. I just can’t overstate how critical that is for everyone to recognize.

It is truly heroic and the citizens of this community have a lot to be proud of for their response.

– Jeff Williams, Regional Director of the Texas Department of Public Safety

 

[2aguy]

An analysis of the church shooting....

 

[Pilot1]

Many of these rampage shootings end with the NRA endorsed gun owner killing himself. Someone being on the scene who is armed is irrelevant

Technicolor gun spammer doesn`t understand why we have more church shootings than countries without the disaster known as the 2nd amendment.

Church shootings in the U.S. are EXTREMELY RARE and account for very few deaths. Yet, this one was minimized due to the Second Amendment. Other countries have BOMBINGS where scores of people are killed. So you're WROING.. AGAIN.

 

[PoliticalChic]

this is a neo-fascist Trump presidency where wealth inequality coupled with racist violence are slowly killing away America, my friends!

"... racist violence ..."


Violence has always been the preferred method of discourse by the Left.


Historic review: every presidential assassin in the history of the nation has been a liberal- or has not been associated with a political outlook- none were right-wingers.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Many of these rampage shootings end with the NRA endorsed gun owner killing himself. Someone being on the scene who is armed is irrelevant

Have you ever asked: Why do I lie to myself with this?
If not, please seek help.

 

[M14 Shooter]

And lobbying for zero gun restrictions too

Get well soon.

 

[52ndStreet]

T's & P's

Apparently, their thoughts and prayers....and preperation were rewarded....the killer was stopped before he could kill more people...

Had they followed the left wing, anti-gun advice, more people would have been killed.

I agree with this post. Had this armed church member followed the Democratic left wing gun control advice, more people would have been killed. Lets arm more citizens in America.

 

[M14 Shooter]

for every SD use, there are dozens of murders

Better check your math.

Guns are used at in self-defense at least 80,000 times per year.
http://vpc.org/studies/justifiable19.pdf (Table 6)
Compare this to 9092 gun-related murders per year.
Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

That's about 9:1 in favor of defensive gun uses.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I gotta give it to the people with concealed carry permits who were attending the service. They actually did stop a bad guy with a gun before he could kill more people.
Only think is, I think it's extremely fucked up that you have to be armed in church. Jesus, who is the Prince of Peace would be pretty disappointed as well I think.

Evil is as evil does.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Meanwhile, here in the civilised world - no churches were shot up and no churchgoers felt the need to take a gun to chapel.

When does your train head back to Mr. Roger's den?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Many of these rampage shootings end with the NRA endorsed gun owner killing himself. Someone being on the scene who is armed is irrelevant

Technicolor gun spammer doesn`t understand why we have more church shootings than countries without the disaster known as the 2nd amendment.

- Tell us why countries w/o a 2nd Amendment have fewer church shootings than the US
- Prove your claim.

 

[DrLove]

Damn Black People