Christians should not support the war on terror

[Dr Grump]

Read the User Reputation thread already in existance.

I'm an adult. I don't need others to help me if somebody starts using the system in a silly way. Says more about them than anything. Some would argue the system is abused already...

 

[5stringJeff]

It's Jimmy's board. How can the rep system be abused?

Some people use the system to flame or threaten other users. That's all. To be honest, I don't even know how to check on another user's rep comments.

 

[Eightball]

I hold by my words from the previous thread: Christians who own guns, vote republican, and watch Pat Robertson are pissing on their own religion. That is not what Christianity is about. You wanted proof...here it is:

First, the most important reason:
Luke 7:27-30--"But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the personwho takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic".

-->Gun owners: Toss the gun and get a dog. If someone gets in your home just lock yourself in a room, call the cops...Break-ins are rarely ever for the purpose of homicide. You actually are at greater risk if you walk up to a robber with a gun, as he may have one too. Conservatives are mostly pro-war. In the case of the last war, they did not even exhaust diplomacy. Pat Robertson...well he once advocated the assasination of Hugo Chavez, how does a guy like that get a Christian TV show?

Second, also regarding treatment of others:
Matthew 22:37-40--"He said to him, 'you shall love the lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

-->Guns are not the tool of love, that is all there is to say about that. Conservatives support the death penalty, is that loving your neighbor? Many christians may disagree with me on this, but I also believe in the right to abortion. No one fully knows a person's individual circumstances that lead them to abortion, and therefore the right should be granted. I am not necessarily for abortion, I just think the right should be extended. Pat Robertson said hindus should not be allowed in the United States. This shows his ignorance, he obviously has never talked to a hindu. Again, nothing Christian about his statement. Besides, the U.S. should be a secular nation, independent of religion. Whatever you are, you have as much right to be here as Pat Robertson.

Finally, regarding wealth
Luke 18:25--"For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven"

-->The conservative politics (republican and democrat) that dominate America are very critical of socialist ideas such as major reallocation of wealth and strict luxury taxes. Yet, we have no problem criticizing state welfare which is not enough to help poor families. It is near impossible for a poor person to make wealth in a society that already punishes the lower classes. The opportunities simply are not there. Yet most politicians are richer than sin...who do you think they are looking out for? Pat Robertson...well, he made a killing off of FM radio. Gun companies: the Government spends more money on tools of war than anything else.

The only difference between Pat Robertson and Muslim extremists is that Robertson only verbally supports killing. Conservative politicians so often call themselves Christians, but they deviate extremely far from the passages above. And there is nothing Christian about a gun.

When your enemy is burglarizing your house, raping and torturing your wife, do you just go ahead and give him a big hug, and send him off with a blessing too? Maybe even find that nasty, sinful old gun you keep at home for protection, and give it to him with a box of ammo too? Afterall, Jesus emphatically said to love this person beyond all measure..........right?

I know when you go to heaven, Jesus will tell you "Well done"..........NOT!
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Now, Jesus wasn't saying to let your enemy literally shoot you in the face with a 38 pistol.

He was emphasizing that when done, "wrong" that you must remember that offenses against you as a Christian are trivial in respect to the infinitely strong, and loving relationship your heavenly father has with you. In other words, look past the indignities, and see that this person is a sinner, just as you once were. You didn't become a Christian by your own merit.......so don't judge others who are as you once were.

Was Jesus promoting "suicide" or the relinquishing of responsibility for other's safety and welfare during times of serious threat?

He/Jesus didn't tell you to "leave your brains in the closet at the door" when you became a Christian......did He?
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Jesus doesn't differentiate between the lost.....as though there are levels of sinners........Romans 3:23 basically says that all human kind have and our alienated from God due to our inherent born nature........that really starts to reveal itself as we become accountable human beings. None of us........the burglar or the perfect gentleman/lady, are cleaner on the inside than the common thief. We have all fallen short of God's glory, therefore you Christians, conduct your lives with thankfulness and do not judge others in a way that makes you(projects you) superior to others. Why, because your standing before God as a Christian was not a result of your "Good Works" but God's all the way, through Jesus Himself.........i.e. death, burial, and ressurrection.
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Now if this person threatens your life, there is no place in the bible where Jesus said, "don't defend yourself physically.". He did however remind us that if we did lose our physical life, that this was not the actual end of life for us Christians, but a "stepping stone" to another realm, namely being in "Paradise" with him.

Remember what Jesus said to the thief, dieing on a cross next to Him........"Surely before this day passes, you(thief) will be with Me in paradise.".
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I really thinks it's unfortunate, that many folks politicize the bible to defend their anti-whatever stances.

They will take scripture literally, when it was intended by the author to be metaphorical, and other times they will brush-off obvious literally intentions of scripture verses as metaphorical messages. In other words, the bible is used to support an agenda..........I call it "bastardizing".
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In the case of the "Luke quote" by the original author of this thread/post, Jesus was emphasizing that we are saved by grace(unmerited favor) therefore treat others that seem objectionable/offensive in the "light" of the grace that was given us. Remember, "grace"= unmerited favor. Not something we earned by our own work of goodyness.
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Remember the parable of the servant that was forgiven enormous debt(Roughly 10 million dollars in nowadays standards!) by his master. Well, that was unmerited grace, but what does the newly out-of-debt servant do? He goes to the first person that owed him a few bucks and shakes him down for a pay-back. When the guy can't come up with the money, does that recently "spared-of-his-debt" servant extend "grace" to his debtee? No! In fact he has him arrested!
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Now in light of turning the other cheek........Jesus is trying to show the world through us Christians that there is a life much superior to man's definition of life........and it's a life that's in Christ Himself.........a life in total submission, to Christ's Lordship.......a life that no longer holds grudges, or takes offense at wrongs done to it by fellow human beings, or circumstances of earthly life. A life superior to man's indignities, offenses, etc to another.
.........

Does Jesus want criminals to have their way over good folks? That's absurd!
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Last comment: Jesus actually, aggressively defended a wrong........He went on a very physically, aggressive rampage throughout the Jewish Temple, turning over money changer tables, swinging a homemade whip at all these folks and their ill works, in His Father's house of worship.

Yep, Jesus is the example..........you quoted Luke......well remember that Jesus could throw a punch at folks when he saw a wrong. Please don't liken this to blowing up Abortion clinics......cause it isn't in the same realm. Jesus didn't take lives......He changed lives. He was also a human being, and He did defend Himself.

Was Jesus a bad man for doing that? Was He being hypcritical in light of what He said in "Luke"? :duh3:
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[StoptheMadness1]

Well Eightball, I couldnt have said it better myself!

Thanks a lot for that post, while you may not see a response from anyone, I truly appreciated it.

Why has disarmament always preceded mass genocide? I think that we need to remember that democide has been the #1 killer of mankind since the beginning of time.

Think twice before "tossing the gun and getting a dog".

 

[Diuretic]

St Thomas Aquinas laid down the conditions of a Just War for Christian rulers.

"First, the authority of the ruler within whose competence it ies to declare war."

"Secondly, there is required a just cause: that is that those who are attacked for some offence merit such treatment. St. Augustine says...'Those wars are generallly defined as just which avenge some wrong, when a nation or a state is to be punished for having failed to make amends for the wrong done, or to restore what has been taken unjustly.' "

"Thirdly, there is required a right intention on the part of the belligerents: either of achieving some good object or of avoiding some evil."

So those seem to be the rules for Christians. Aquinas goes on though to discuss St Augustine's comments (he quoted St Augustine extensively).

St Augustine says "For the true followers of God even wars are peaceful, not being made for greed or out of cruelty, but from desire of peace, to restrain the evil and assist the good."

On that Aquinas comments, "So it can happen that even when war is declared by legitimate authority and there is just cause, it is, nevertheless, made unjust through evil intention.

St. Augustine, "The desire to hurt, the cruelty of vendetta, the thirst for power, and all that is similar, all these are justly condemned in war."

You can find these in Aquinas Summa Theologica, Quaestio XL - De Bello

The comments of St Augustine are from De Verbis Domini.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I said it so eloquantly before, that I think I'll say it again.

How DARE you even begin to lecture me on what Christianity means and what God would want me to do. You spineless, shameless liberals are all the same. You spend soooo much of your time blaming everything on Christians, telling us how backwards we are and how we're all living in the past just because we think unhealthy, unproductive homosexual relationships and killing your child before are wrong. You pound us continuously about how we're a bunch of backward hicks holding back progress in all areas and how if we'd just stop being so f-ing stupid and wake up, everybody would be a lot better off. Then, when it suits your twisted, selfish little agenda, you godless heathens take one or two verses, out of context, and presume to tell those of us who have personally talked to God that God would dissapprove of our actions. Just who the hell do YOU think you ARE?! Have you talked to God? No? Sit down. You lose. Now, until you can actually read and UNDERSTAND the Bible, don't you even begin to tell me that I can't own guns for hunting God's bounty or protecting what God has given me. Don't tell me I can't vote for politicians that oppose the sanction of abominable sexual practices. And you sure as hell better not tell me that I shouldn't watch a preacher on TV whose primary fault is talking before thinking.

The idea that anybody like you would even pretent to lecture ANYBODY on what Christianity really is makes me sick to my stomach. You just have all the answers, don't you?

Sounds like you need to "...actually read and UNDERSTAND the Bible...". Your little hissy fit shows just how shaky your grasp on the Bible's teachings are. So be a good little boy and come back when you've grown up a bit.

And as for Christians, those who walk it like they talk it are fine by me. However, I won't suffer sanctimonious, self-righteous, hypocritical pissants gladly.

 

[dmp]

Sounds like you need to "...actually read and UNDERSTAND the Bible...". Your little hissy fit shows just how shaky your grasp on the Bible's teachings are. So be a good little boy and come back when you've grown up a bit.

And as for Christians, those who walk it like they talk it are fine by me. However, I won't suffer sanctimonious, self-righteous, hypocritical pissants gladly.

You are very wrong - and it's people like you who need to read and digest exactly what hobbit wrote. You try to use your misguided thoughts about what it means to Be or Not Be 'Christian' against those who really believe.

...I pitty you.

 

[Bullypulpit]

You are very wrong - and it's people like you who need to read and digest exactly what hobbit wrote. You try to use your misguided thoughts about what it means to Be or Not Be 'Christian' against those who really believe.

...I pitty you.

I look to my Christian friends for what it means to be a Christian...for what it means to believe in, and follow, Christ's teachings.

As for trying to "digest" what Hobbit wrote, I'm, afraid that it's pretty much indigestible.

And, are you so certain you're right?

 

[Hobbit]

I look to my Christian friends for what it means to be a Christian...for what it means to believe in, and follow, Christ's teachings.

As for trying to "digest" what Hobbit wrote, I'm, afraid that it's pretty much indigestible.

And, are you so certain you're right?

Then you've got crappy Christians for friends. You also might try looking at the Bible. For all I know, your 'Christian' friends could be people who just say they are to be fashionable.

As for being able to 'digest' it, can you not or do you just not want to?

 

[dmp]

I look to my Christian friends for what it means to be a Christian...for what it means to believe in, and follow, Christ's teachings.

As for trying to "digest" what Hobbit wrote, I'm, afraid that it's pretty much indigestible.

And, are you so certain you're right?

See Hobbit's reply.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Then you've got crappy Christians for friends. You also might try looking at the Bible. For all I know, your 'Christian' friends could be people who just say they are to be fashionable.

As for being able to 'digest' it, can you not or do you just not want to?

And you couldn't hold a candle to the least among them. So go ahead...if you're without sin, cast the first stone.

As for digestibility, a skilled chef can take a few ingredients and combine them to form a tasty and wholesome meal. An unskilled person can take the same ingredients and render them into a foul and disgusting mess. It goes without saying that you fall into this latter category.

 

[Bullypulpit]

See Hobbit's reply.

YOu fall into the same category as Hobbit...See my reply.

 

[dmp]

YOu fall into the same category as Hobbit...See my reply.

lol...

 

[dmp]

And you couldn't hold a candle to the least among them. So go ahead...if you're without sin, cast the first stone.

As for digestibility, a skilled chef can take a few ingredients and combine them to form a tasty and wholesome meal. An unskilled person can take the same ingredients and render them into a foul and disgusting mess. It goes without saying that you fall into this latter category.

You are having trouble following the point, Bully.

 

[Hobbit]

And you couldn't hold a candle to the least among them. So go ahead...if you're without sin, cast the first stone.

As for digestibility, a skilled chef can take a few ingredients and combine them to form a tasty and wholesome meal. An unskilled person can take the same ingredients and render them into a foul and disgusting mess. It goes without saying that you fall into this latter category.

*gasp* A scripture reference. Oh my, that must mean that you're a foremost expert on Christianity. I'm SOOO impressed. I could list a bunch of refutory scriptures, but it would be pretty pointless.

And considering what you think is a quality person, I'm rather flattered that you think so poorly of me.

 

[Bullypulpit]

You are having trouble following the point, Bully.

And you, apparently, can't follow an analogy.

 

[Bullypulpit]

*gasp* A scripture reference. Oh my, that must mean that you're a foremost expert on Christianity. I'm SOOO impressed. I could list a bunch of refutory scriptures, but it would be pretty pointless.

And considering what you think is a quality person, I'm rather flattered that you think so poorly of me.

Unlike you, I'll be the first to admit my ignorance. But since I'm not a Christian anyways, it's a moot point.

And don't flatter yourself. I don't give you much thought at all. However, it amuses me to watch you splutter and fulminate in impotent, self-righteous indignation. And since you don't know the people I associate with, your opinion of them is of no matter. :teeth:

 

[Hobbit]

Unlike you, I'll be the first to admit my ignorance. But since I'm not a Christian anyways, it's a moot point.

And don't flatter yourself. I don't give you much thought at all. However, it amuses me to watch you splutter and fulminate in impotent, self-righteous indignation. And since you don't know the people I associate with, your opinion of them is of no matter. :teeth:

Can you see my house from up there in your ivory tower? I mean, you must need an O2 tank or something being that high.

And I'm not self-righteous, I'm righteously furious with jackasses such as yourself telling me what's Christian behavior and what's not, because *gasp* you allegedly have a few Christian friends. Whoop de frickin' do. I have a couple of Buddhist friends, but I butt out of Buddhism because I don't really know anything about it. Now, if you want to talk about self-righteousness, come down out of that ivory tower of yours and pretend there's a possibility that you might be wrong about something for once.

 

[dmp]

Unlike you, I'll be the first to admit my ignorance. But since I'm not a Christian anyways, it's a moot point.

Then why to you get your rocks off telling Christians how they should act?

 

[Joz]

I only got into about 4 pages of all this before my eyes began to cross. I am curious tho'. Why do people post things/questions like this & when given an answer they complain about Christians saying, "Uh-Uh, that's not right".

I remember a young man sitting in our den after church one day. He was talking to my father about a similar subject. My father wondered what he would do if someone broke into his home & tried hurting his wife; would he defend his wife & property? Of course being a new Christian, he gave the obvious answer. To which my father told him that if it ever happened with our family, whomever "would see their guts flying in front of them".

Christianity (and this country) is based on freedom of choice. And when we , as Christians, see our freedom being taken from us, it is natural to defend it. I know there are some Christians that have served as a consciencious objector, but they have still served in defense of their country.

No where in the Bible have I read that God/Christ said that we could not defend. It does speak against stealing ......my freedom.