Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

[MaryL]

You mean sacrifice. I never understood that concept in any religion. If God wanted us to repent from sins he gave us the free will to choose, even though this is all foretold and foreseen, what is the point of God creating a man to be slain as a symbol of immortality when God could just as well have made humans immortal and incapable of committing sins? It just sounds like hogwash, all religions seem so contrived and phony. I am sorry to offend anyone.

 

[PratchettFan]

I am talking about forgiveness from God. Had Jesus not been crucified, would God offer forgiveness of sin just as God does now?

In my opinion, yes. He forgave King David. We see God's forgiveness all over the Old Testament. Remember, however, the Jews were not interested in spreading the Kingdom of God. He was their God, they were His people.

So not a sacrifice at all. Simply a refusal to back down from a principle. This is a different approach than I have heard. Thank you.

I wouldn't go that far. Any life is too complicated to insist it's only this and not any of that.

Understood. My question really dealt with the belief of what God was looking for, as opposed to what Jesus thought was happening. I see those as two different things. I understand you may not, and that is fine.

 

[Meriweather]

Name a Christian denomination that does not fly the cross.

Those that do are embracing barbaric human sacrifice and you know it.

No love is greater than giving one's life for a friend.

 

[PostmodernProph]

SELF sacrifice.....(from a Calvinist, by the way, we don't teach it either)......

I would be interested in better understanding Calvinist teaching on this. Can you give me a quick summary?

not that complicated.....Jesus was God....God did not sacrifice some human for our sins......he sacrificed himself.....

 

[Meriweather]

You forget that Jesus said, I do my fathers will and not my own.

It was Jesus' choice to do the Father's will. However, there were a great more elements in play here than you mention.

 

[Meriweather]

But Jesus did have to die did he not?

Things being as they were, the handwriting was certainly on the wall. But, what if things had been different? What if people had accepted that he was the Word Incarnate, and all began to live a life of obedience to God? People could have made this choice...but they did not.

 

[Meriweather]

Forgave King David!

Was the torture of King David's baby for 6 days before God finally had enough of torturing it not enough punishment for God?

Is that a good way for a God to forgive? By the murder of the sinners baby?

I have found when people get so much of the story wrong, it's best to pass as there is no common ground with which to work.

 

[Meriweather]

You mean sacrifice. I never understood that concept in any religion. If God wanted us to repent from sins he gave us the free will to choose, even though this is all foretold and foreseen, what is the point of God creating a man to be slain as a symbol of immortality when God could just as well have made humans immortal and incapable of committing sins? It just sounds like hogwash, all religions seem so contrived and phony. I am sorry to offend anyone.

Taking one part of what you are saying: What do you think has the better overall outcome? A creator who fixes it so a man never sins? Or, a creator who patiently works with his creation until man understands on his own it is best not to sin?

Many do believe that the soul is immortal--it's only the body that is mortal.

 

[MaryL]

God loved us so much that he gave us his only begotten son, John 3/16. Sacrifice. Isn't Christianity based on that? Sacrifice. . We all sacrifice something sometime. Atonement, well who can say.

 

[Meriweather]

Understood. My question really dealt with the belief of what God was looking for, as opposed to what Jesus thought was happening. I see those as two different things. I understand you may not, and that is fine.

My take is that God wanted us to know that as ironic as it might sound, obedience provides us with the more abundant life and a greater freedom. I think Jesus saw that he was angering some very wealthy, very powerful people--and that it had two possible outcomes: He shut up and went away. Or, he believed in what he was doing and stuck with it until the end.

 

[PratchettFan]

Understood. My question really dealt with the belief of what God was looking for, as opposed to what Jesus thought was happening. I see those as two different things. I understand you may not, and that is fine.

My take is that God wanted us to know that as ironic as it might sound, obedience provides us with the more abundant life and a greater freedom. I think Jesus saw that he was angering some very wealthy, very powerful people--and that it had two possible outcomes: He shut up and went away. Or, he believed in what he was doing and stuck with it until the end.

Yes, he stood by his principles. I don't agree with this idea of obedience. I don't think Jesus was talking about obedience. Doing what is right just because you are told to is not morality, it is conformity. I don't think we are here to obey, we are here to grow. I think what Jesus was teaching was an examination of life and behavior, and to live that life with a moral base. The problem with morality is that it will sometimes take you where you do not want to go.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, he stood by his principles. I don't agree with this idea of obedience. I don't think Jesus was talking about obedience. Doing what is right just because you are told to is not morality, it is conformity. I don't think we are here to obey, we are here to grow. I think what Jesus was teaching was an examination of life and behavior, and to live that life with a moral base. The problem with morality is that it will sometimes take you where you do not want to go.

Jesus was adamant that people should learn to discern the will of the Father and follow it. That is what I meant by obedience (just in case you were envisioning obedience to the law, the boss, or whatever).

 

[GreatestIam]

You mean sacrifice. I never understood that concept in any religion. If God wanted us to repent from sins he gave us the free will to choose, even though this is all foretold and foreseen, what is the point of God creating a man to be slain as a symbol of immortality when God could just as well have made humans immortal and incapable of committing sins? It just sounds like hogwash, all religions seem so contrived and phony. I am sorry to offend anyone.

Why be sorry when religions are immoral and exist only by lying continually?

Those in most of the misogynistic mainstream religions deserve chastisement, not being told you are sorry because your thinking trumps theirs.

Do not be sorry for seeing crap and saying you see crap. People are wallowing in it. Those who hear and recognize crap will get out of it.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Name a Christian denomination that does not fly the cross.

Those that do are embracing barbaric human sacrifice and you know it.

No love is greater than giving one's life for a friend.

Yet you God could not even do it for his son and even took his life.

I talk of that special love you see below.

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

-----------------------------------

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

---------------------------------

It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning anddemanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

SELF sacrifice.....(from a Calvinist, by the way, we don't teach it either)......

I would be interested in better understanding Calvinist teaching on this. Can you give me a quick summary?

not that complicated.....Jesus was God....God did not sacrifice some human for our sins......he sacrificed himself.....

Get the quote that says God can die please.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

You forget that Jesus said, I do my fathers will and not my own.

It was Jesus' choice to do the Father's will. However, there were a great more elements in play here than you mention.

Liar.

Jesus said, I do my fathers will and not my own.

If you read your bible you will not have to lie about what it says.

Did Jesus say seek God or seek me?

Why are they both in me and separate as Jesus says?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I feel them both. Why can't you?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

But Jesus did have to die did he not?

Things being as they were, the handwriting was certainly on the wall. But, what if things had been different? What if people had accepted that he was the Word Incarnate, and all began to live a life of obedience to God? People could have made this choice...but they did not.

Correct. They did as Jesus taught and did not turn him into an idol to worship the way Christianity has done. To their shame.

They have made you accept poor morals that you would never practice yet support.

Shame on you.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Forgave King David!

Was the torture of King David's baby for 6 days before God finally had enough of torturing it not enough punishment for God?

Is that a good way for a God to forgive? By the murder of the sinners baby?

I have found when people get so much of the story wrong, it's best to pass as there is no common ground with which to work.

You mean that you have not found a way to justify the torture and murder of a baby by your prick of a God and you think people will not note your pathetic dodge.

Repent.

Regards
DL

 

[PostmodernProph]

SELF sacrifice.....(from a Calvinist, by the way, we don't teach it either)......

I would be interested in better understanding Calvinist teaching on this. Can you give me a quick summary?

not that complicated.....Jesus was God....God did not sacrifice some human for our sins......he sacrificed himself.....

Get the quote that says God can die please.

Regards
DL

won't work, as I recall you don't accept the New Testament.....therefore you will remain unconvinced.....

 

[PratchettFan]

Yes, he stood by his principles. I don't agree with this idea of obedience. I don't think Jesus was talking about obedience. Doing what is right just because you are told to is not morality, it is conformity. I don't think we are here to obey, we are here to grow. I think what Jesus was teaching was an examination of life and behavior, and to live that life with a moral base. The problem with morality is that it will sometimes take you where you do not want to go.

Jesus was adamant that people should learn to discern the will of the Father and follow it. That is what I meant by obedience (just in case you were envisioning obedience to the law, the boss, or whatever).

That's not what I take away from his teachings. Of course, I read those teachings from the perspective of a Buddhist and I am sure that has an impact. I don't think the behavior Jesus was teaching was the point, but rather the vehicle by which one will grow. Loving God is not an end of itself, it is a process by which one can let go of ego and become God. Just not a fast process.