China’s J-20 Stealth Fighter Has No Canon

[Weatherman2020]

Those who forget the history of the F-4 are doomed to repeat it.

China's J-20 stealth fighter has no cannon — and it shows the jet can't dogfight with the US

For non aviation folks: air to air missiles require distance to the target to work. Close quarters, only a cannon works. We lost some good pilots in the F-4.

 

[Sunni Man]

For non aviation folks: air to air missiles require distance to the target to work. Close quarters, only a canon works. We lost some good pilots in the F-4.

Because the F4 Phantom wasn't outfitted with a cannon or machine guns.

Many a Mig pilot escaped to fight another day. ....

 

[DrainBamage]

The history of the F-4 with no cannon was over 50 years ago when air-to-air missiles weren't reliable, targeting was difficult, and pilot training to use them properly was lacking. I know it's brought up all the time as some great lesson that shouldn't be repeated but one could counter that history has shown the era of the gun for air-to-air combat is indeed dead. Consider:

1. When was the last gun kill by a US pilot? Probably an A-10 versus a helicopter, if you go back further than that things get fuzzy but by some accounts it was an F-8 Crusader during the Vietnam War. Meanwhile the pk has continued to rise as sensors and weapons improve generation to generation.

2. Missiles have improved dramatically since F-4s showed up rocking Sparrows. They don't require constant target illumination, they have much better terminal seekers, two-way data links, much better software algorithms for intercept that use ballistic trajectories, automatic HOJ mode, etc.

3. Missiles do work in close quarters. AIM-9X has lock after launch, can be cued by helmet, high off boresight capabilities, and is almost impossible to spoof because uses imaging infrared so it can tell the difference between a hot airplane and a flare. AAMs produced by other countries also have advanced along similar lines, and many believe with modern AAMs entering the merge is a death sentence for either pilot.

There is nothing wrong with having a gun on a plane, and yes a skilled pilot can still use a cannon to achieve air-to-air kills. However air combat has long been trending towards BVR engagements and missile kills for both BVR and WVR. At some point it becomes a reasonable choice to use your plane's space/weight for something more likely to be used.

 

[DrainBamage]

Here is video from AIM-9X trials showing how it can ignore massive flare release and ground clutter to still clip a wing, along with several helmet cued off-boresight launches. Angle of attack becomes a lot less relevant when you've got capabilities like this.

 

[westwall]

The history of the F-4 with no cannon was over 50 years ago when air-to-air missiles weren't reliable, targeting was difficult, and pilot training to use them properly was lacking. I know it's brought up all the time as some great lesson that shouldn't be repeated but one could counter that history has shown the era of the gun for air-to-air combat is indeed dead. Consider:

1. When was the last gun kill by a US pilot? Probably an A-10 versus a helicopter, if you go back further than that things get fuzzy but by some accounts it was an F-8 Crusader during the Vietnam War. Meanwhile the pk has continued to rise as sensors and weapons improve generation to generation.

2. Missiles have improved dramatically since F-4s showed up rocking Sparrows. They don't require constant target illumination, they have much better terminal seekers, two-way data links, much better software algorithms for intercept that use ballistic trajectories, automatic HOJ mode, etc.

3. Missiles do work in close quarters. AIM-9X has lock after launch, can be cued by helmet, high off boresight capabilities, and is almost impossible to spoof because uses imaging infrared so it can tell the difference between a hot airplane and a flare. AAMs produced by other countries also have advanced along similar lines, and many believe with modern AAMs entering the merge is a death sentence for either pilot.

There is nothing wrong with having a gun on a plane, and yes a skilled pilot can still use a cannon to achieve air-to-air kills. However air combat has long been trending towards BVR engagements and missile kills for both BVR and WVR. At some point it becomes a reasonable choice to use your plane's space/weight for something more likely to be used.

All true, but not having a gun means that when the fight gets to knife range they are going to be a gift.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The history of the F-4 with no cannon was over 50 years ago when air-to-air missiles weren't reliable, targeting was difficult, and pilot training to use them properly was lacking. I know it's brought up all the time as some great lesson that shouldn't be repeated but one could counter that history has shown the era of the gun for air-to-air combat is indeed dead. Consider:

1. When was the last gun kill by a US pilot? Probably an A-10 versus a helicopter, if you go back further than that things get fuzzy but by some accounts it was an F-8 Crusader during the Vietnam War. Meanwhile the pk has continued to rise as sensors and weapons improve generation to generation.

2. Missiles have improved dramatically since F-4s showed up rocking Sparrows. They don't require constant target illumination, they have much better terminal seekers, two-way data links, much better software algorithms for intercept that use ballistic trajectories, automatic HOJ mode, etc.

3. Missiles do work in close quarters. AIM-9X has lock after launch, can be cued by helmet, high off boresight capabilities, and is almost impossible to spoof because uses imaging infrared so it can tell the difference between a hot airplane and a flare. AAMs produced by other countries also have advanced along similar lines, and many believe with modern AAMs entering the merge is a death sentence for either pilot.

There is nothing wrong with having a gun on a plane, and yes a skilled pilot can still use a cannon to achieve air-to-air kills. However air combat has long been trending towards BVR engagements and missile kills for both BVR and WVR. At some point it becomes a reasonable choice to use your plane's space/weight for something more likely to be used.

All true, but not having a gun means that when the fight gets to knife range they are going to be a gift.

The last time a US fighter got into a Gunfight was two F-15Cs against 2 Iraqi Mig-29s. One Mig-29 was flown into the ground while the other ended up, after a turn and burn fight, was bagged by a Aim--9. Neither Migs could stay long enough on the pipper to get bagged by the gun.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Those who forget the history of the F-4 are doomed to repeat it.

China's J-20 stealth fighter has no cannon — and it shows the jet can't dogfight with the US

For non aviation folks: air to air missiles require distance to the target to work. Close quarters, only a cannon works. We lost some good pilots in the F-4.

pretty sure like everything else china has cut a few corners in the production

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Those who forget the history of the F-4 are doomed to repeat it.

China's J-20 stealth fighter has no cannon — and it shows the jet can't dogfight with the US

For non aviation folks: air to air missiles require distance to the target to work. Close quarters, only a cannon works. We lost some good pilots in the F-4.

pretty sure like everything else china has cut a few corners in the production

The Russians aren't having a great month either.

 

[DrainBamage]

pretty sure like everything else china has cut a few corners in the production

I'm pretty sure it's wasn't a matter of cutting corners, it was a decision on how to use available space/weight given the role of the aircraft. F-35A is the only one with a built in gun, and while F-35C can employ a gun pod it's likely that USMC F-35Bs will actually deploy them with any frequency and that'll be in ground support roles.

China's challenge with J-20 is engines and managing LO to match American designs. They'll probably steal enough info to figure out the engines eventually, then years later figure out how to make them at a reasonable cost/pace.

 

[DrainBamage]

The last time a US fighter got into a Gunfight was two F-15Cs against 2 Iraqi Mig-29s. One Mig-29 was flown into the ground while the other ended up, after a turn and burn fight, was bagged by a Aim--9. Neither Migs could stay long enough on the pipper to get bagged by the gun.

Like I said, when was the last gun kill?

Either way I'm interested, I'd read about a F-15 vs. Mig-29 engagement once where a MIG flew into the ground but in that incident one MIG was downed by a Sparrow first then the other flew into the ground. Maybe we're talking different incidents.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The last time a US fighter got into a Gunfight was two F-15Cs against 2 Iraqi Mig-29s. One Mig-29 was flown into the ground while the other ended up, after a turn and burn fight, was bagged by a Aim--9. Neither Migs could stay long enough on the pipper to get bagged by the gun.

Like I said, when was the last gun kill?

Either way I'm interested, I'd read about a F-15 vs. Mig-29 engagement once where a MIG flew into the ground but in that incident one MIG was downed by a Sparrow first then the other flew into the ground. Maybe we're talking different incidents.

No, same one. I don't think it matters which happened first only that both happened in the same fight.

 

[jon_berzerk]

pretty sure like everything else china has cut a few corners in the production

I'm pretty sure it's wasn't a matter of cutting corners, it was a decision on how to use available space/weight given the role of the aircraft. F-35A is the only one with a built in gun, and while F-35C can employ a gun pod it's likely that USMC F-35Bs will actually deploy them with any frequency and that'll be in ground support roles.

China's challenge with J-20 is engines and managing LO to match American designs. They'll probably steal enough info to figure out the engines eventually, then years later figure out how to make them at a reasonable cost/pace.

the chinese are literally known for cutting corners

steal tec and then not know how to make it

in other

they know the words but not the music

when they do figure it out we will be that much further ahead

 

[westwall]

The last time a US fighter got into a Gunfight was two F-15Cs against 2 Iraqi Mig-29s. One Mig-29 was flown into the ground while the other ended up, after a turn and burn fight, was bagged by a Aim--9. Neither Migs could stay long enough on the pipper to get bagged by the gun.

Like I said, when was the last gun kill?

Either way I'm interested, I'd read about a F-15 vs. Mig-29 engagement once where a MIG flew into the ground but in that incident one MIG was downed by a Sparrow first then the other flew into the ground. Maybe we're talking different incidents.

It doesn't matter when it was. It is a tool in the tactics kit. Remove the tool, and the kit is less effective. That is a simple fact. There were multiple times in the past few years where multiple missiles were fired with no hits scored. It is a fact of life that failures happen. And, yes, just because the aircraft has a cannon doesn't mean the pilot will be able to hit anything, some are good shots, and some are not, but the fact remains that it is a weapon, and any aircraft that doesn't have a similar weapon will be at a disadvantage.

 

[DrainBamage]

No, same one. I don't think it matters which happened first only that both happened in the same fight.

I've read many accounts of that fight and nothing mentioned any guns being fired. Quite a famous engagement.

You were also incorrect on the missile, it was an AIM-7.

 

[DrainBamage]

the chinese are literally known for cutting corners

Yes they are known for being able to manufacture things cheaper by making inferior products, but that is because most manufacturing done by China fits this model. It doesn't mean they are incapable of manufacturing quality products, they have been making high-end iPhones for many years that are generally considered among the higher quality mobile devices on the market.

Given all the costs that go into developing and producing a 5th generation stealth fighter it's absurd to believe something that has been in planes as a relatively low-cost item wouldn't be there because of cost cutting, especially given the trends in air combat and obvious example of versions of F-35 also lacking integrated cannon.

It's also been postulated that China wants J-20s not to be able to defeat US 5th generation fighters but to have a chance at threatening US support aircraft that are vital to the way US conducts air operations. Tankers, JSTARS, AWACS, etc. for this they'd be interested in stealth and long range missiles.

 

[DrainBamage]

It doesn't matter when it was. It is a tool in the tactics kit. Remove the tool, and the kit is less effective. That is a simple fact. There were multiple times in the past few years where multiple missiles were fired with no hits scored. It is a fact of life that failures happen. And, yes, just because the aircraft has a cannon doesn't mean the pilot will be able to hit anything, some are good shots, and some are not, but the fact remains that it is a weapon, and any aircraft that doesn't have a similar weapon will be at a disadvantage.

You're absolutely right that that missiles miss and a plane with a cannon has an advantage over a plane without in terms of availability of weapons over a plane without a cannon, but that advantage is only an advantage if the plane needs the gun in air combat. In a practical sense one could look at trends in kills over the last 50 years of air warfare and clearly note the shift from guns to short range missiles to long range missiles. In fact, if you throw out the A-10 incident as an outlier a US pilot hasn't shot down another plane with a gun in almost 50 years! It isn't unreasonable to conclude that cannons, while obviously useful if needed for air combat, just aren't needed often enough to justify their weight and space. Even that furball Daryl referenced was almost 20 years ago and involved a previous generation missile.

In the report Trends in Air Combat* the author did a rigorous study of 1,450 air combat kills from 1965-2002 and he observed same. If anything this trend is even more pronounced now than the 1990-2002 time frame that closes his report, in the ensuing 16 years BVR/WVR missiles and sensors have made dramatic improvements. AIM-9X, AIM-120D, AESA radars etc. Before someone goes strawman on me I'm not claiming missiles are infallible, just pointing out the obvious that guns just haven't been used in a long time and missiles keep getting better.

*Available here: Trends in Air-to-Air Combat: Implications for Future Air Superiority | CSBA

 

[DrainBamage]

Also on J-20, they have a plane they are trying to make stealthy but it's also got forward canards like Typhoon/Gripen/Rafale that are mounted high, possibly hindering any top mounted F-22 style cannon. It might have been difficult to even find a place for a cannon since they are using the sides for internally carried short range AAMs. Just speculation on my part, obviously I have no idea what design tradeoffs were made by folks in China.

I think it's a fair statement given above data on air-to-air kills that given a choice between mounting a gun on the side or another AAM missile bay the latter would be a far more logical choice.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Also on J-20, they have a plane they are trying to make stealthy but it's also got forward canards like Typhoon/Gripen/Rafale that are mounted high, possibly hindering any top mounted F-22 style cannon. It might have been difficult to even find a place for a cannon since they are using the sides for internally carried short range AAMs. Just speculation on my part, obviously I have no idea what design tradeoffs were made by folks in China.

I think it's a fair statement given above data on air-to-air kills that given a choice between mounting a gun on the side or another AAM missile bay the latter would be a far more logical choice.

It's pretty, I'll give them that. But it looks more like something Revell would put out. Looking at the construction, it's about as stealthy as a F-15 and less stealthy than a F-16 if both of those were to have stealth paint and kept to a minimum of the same weapons load.

 

[KissMy]

You idiots waste time & money fighting the last wars. Drones are the future, not pilots dog fighting.

 

[westwall]

You idiots waste time & money fighting the last wars. Drones are the future, not pilots dog fighting.

There is a lot of truth in that statement.