Zone1 Capital Punishment is Wrong!

[badbob85037]

Terrible idea: The problem with your desire to expand the use of the death penalty is it would be counter productive. Every prosecutor knows that it is much harder to get a conviction in a death penalty case because juries are much more hesitant about imposing the death penalty. The result would be more criminal not being charged or convicted of lessor crimes.

The vast majority of violent criminals do make informed and calculated decisions about crimes and possible punishment. They are convinced that they will not get caught and if they do they believe they will beat the rap. About 25% of violent criminals use of drugs and alcohol precludes them making any rational choices so the punishment for their crime is totally irrelevant.

Do criminals think about getting caught before committing a crime? - Barking Up The Wrong Tree

Everything you need to know about Do criminals think about getting caught before committing a crime?

bakadesuyo.com

Your graph speaks for it's self why murder is on the rise.

 

[Woodznutz]

We will not make any real headway in reducing serious violent crimes such as murder until we address the causes. About the only thing our criminal justice system accomplishes is separating the criminals from society either permanently with capital punishment or temporarily with prison. Neither of which works very well. Capital punishment is not a good deterrent and the recidivism rates of our prisons varies 35% to 70%. Overall nearly half of those in prison today will return to crime when released after spending about 5 years in prison.

Recidivism rates decline with longer sentences. Longer sentences with better treatment is the answer. What is less appreciated is that criminals often commit many crimes before they are caught, not just one.

 

[Doug1943]

We will not make any real headway in reducing serious violent crimes such as murder until we address the causes. About the only thing our criminal justice system accomplishes is separating the criminals from society either permanently with capital punishment or temporarily with prison. Neither of which works very well. Capital punishment is not a good deterrent and the recidivism rates of our prisons varies 35% to 70%. Overall nearly half of those in prison today will return to crime when released after spending about 5 years in prison.

Finally, a rational argument with some hard facts!
So ... now let's talk about 'the causes' and how we should 'address' them.

So ... what are the causes of crime?

Over to you.

 

[Doug1943]

Recidivism rates decline with longer sentences. Longer sentences with better treatment is the answer. What is less appreciated is that criminals often commit many crimes before they are caught, not just one.

I don't know about 'better treatment' -- whatever that means -- but longer sentences mean that the criminal is older when he gets out of prison.

I've seen some 'experts' (the late James Q. Wilson, my go-to guy for serious social science, especially criminology) who argue that this is almost the ONLY factor affect recidivism: keep them in prison until they're well into their 40s.

But we should have a rational debate about this subject, with links to evidence or at least to serious schoars who study this subject.

Here's a start:
[ James Q. Wilson ]

 

[Donald H]

Every day good people die. Every day innocent people die. If you can point out someone who didn't deserve to die 10 times over point it out. I wish they would end these devils before we feed them for 20 years. You must live a charmed life and never had you or your close family wronged. If you had you wouldn't be crying to turn them loose. Maybe if we end a few of these worst of humanity others will think twice. You need to do another look at evil as you can't know.

Be Happy living your life of hating, and share it with me if it helps, Christian.

 

[Woodznutz]

I don't know about 'better treatment' -- whatever that means -- but longer sentences mean that the criminal is older when he gets out of prison.

Those who are adjudged as "criminals" should never get out of prison.

I've seen some 'experts' (the late James Q. Wilson, my go-to guy for serious social science, especially criminology) who argue that this is almost the ONLY factor affect recidivism: keep them in prison until they're well into their 40s.

Such "experts" explain away more than they explain.

But we should have a rational debate about this subject, with links to evidence or at least to serious schoars who study this subject.

Crime is the 'golden goose', the 'grist', for the criminal justice system as well as many businesses.

There can only be 'tavern talk. Irrational people, no matter how educated or well-intended cannot have a rational debate about crime.

 

[Doug1943]

Those who are adjudged as "criminals" should never get out of prison.

Such "experts" explain away more than they explain.

Crime is the 'golden goose', the 'grist', for the criminal justice system as well as many businesses.

There can only be 'tavern talk. Irrational people, no matter how educated or well-intended cannot have a rational debate about crime.

Hmmm... so someone who repeatedly fails to pay his parking tickets should go to prison for life?

What you say about 'experts' is generally true, but I think you have not come across the fellow I mentioned, James Q. Wilson. Check him out -- click on those links I provided.

It is a Marxist view that the capitalist system produces crime like it produces knives and forks. Is this your view? [ https://revisesociology.com/2016/06/04/marxist-theory-crime/ ]

Of course 'irrational people' cannot have a rational argument about crime, or about anything else.

But most of us are a mix of the rational and irrational. Or, better, of the rational and non-rational, the intellect and the emotions. And, to quote a great thinker, reason is, and should be, a slave to the passions.

 

[westwall]

Hmmm... so someone who repeatedly fails to pay his parking tickets should go to prison for life?

What you say about 'experts' is generally true, but I think you have not come across the fellow I mentioned, James Q. Wilson. Check him out -- click on those links I provided.

It is a Marxist view that the capitalist system produces crime like it produces knives and forks. Is this your view? [ https://revisesociology.com/2016/06/04/marxist-theory-crime/ ]

Of course 'irrational people' cannot have a rational argument about crime, or about anything else.

But most of us are a mix of the rational and irrational. Or, better, of the rational and non-rational, the intellect and the emotions. And, to quote a great thinker, reason is, and should be, a slave to the passions.

No, but someone who kills or rapes someone else SHOULD never get out of prison.

Ever.

 

[Doug1943]

No, but someone who kills or rapes someone else SHOULD never get out of prison.

Ever.

Agreed. Although 'rape' is not quite so straightforward a crime. (JFK may have been guilty of it. [ Jackie, Oh No! ]) Perhaps we should say, "stranger rape".

For lesser crimes involving the use of firearms, I've made a humane proposal that would avoid imprisonment altogether: the "trigger-finger" punishment. [Amputation thereof.] What do you think of that?

 

[westwall]

Agreed. Although 'rape' is not quite so straightforward a crime. (JFK may have been guilty of it. [ Jackie, Oh No! ]) Perhaps we should say, "stranger rape".

For lesser crimes involving the use of firearms, I've made a humane proposal that would avoid imprisonment altogether: the "trigger-finger" punishment. [Amputation thereof.] What do you think of that?

Use a gun to commit a crime, and you go to prison for 30 years minimum.

 

[Flopper]

Every day good people die. Every day innocent people die. If you can point out someone who didn't deserve to die 10 times over point it out. I wish they would end these devils before we feed them for 20 years. You must live a charmed life and never had you or your close family wronged. If you had you wouldn't be crying to turn them loose. Maybe if we end a few of these worst of humanity others will think twice. You need to do another look at evil as you can't know.

The fact is they don’t think twice or even once before committing these horrible crimes. Capital punishment is not a deterrent. As long as we focus on punishment and not prevention nothing will change.

 

[Woodznutz]

Hmmm... so someone who repeatedly fails to pay his parking tickets should go to prison for life?

What you say about 'experts' is generally true, but I think you have not come across the fellow I mentioned, James Q. Wilson. Check him out -- click on those links I provided.

It is a Marxist view that the capitalist system produces crime like it produces knives and forks. Is this your view? [ https://revisesociology.com/2016/06/04/marxist-theory-crime/ ]

Of course 'irrational people' cannot have a rational argument about crime, or about anything else.

But most of us are a mix of the rational and irrational. Or, better, of the rational and non-rational, the intellect and the emotions. And, to quote a great thinker, reason is, and should be, a slave to the passions.

The criminal justice system should be built around the necessity to keep criminals out of the general population as long as possible. Recidivism identifies career criminals that fall into that category.

One of the biggest mistakes is made by the courts when first-time offenders are let off with no punishment. Also, we have abandoned the valuable concepts of fear, guilt, and shame when dealing with criminal or antisocial behavior.

 

[Woodznutz]

The fact is they don’t think twice or even once before committing these horrible crimes. Capital punishment is not a deterrent. As long as we focus on punishment and not prevention nothing will change.

Capital punishment will have a deterrent effect on someone.

Isolating criminals from society need not be termed punishment. Call it an alternate universe where criminals will feel at home among their own kind.

 

[Flopper]

Recidivism rates decline with longer sentences. Longer sentences with better treatment is the answer. What is less appreciated is that criminals often commit many crimes before they are caught, not just one.

Criminal behavior spikes in the late teens and falls off with age. So it makes sense that keeping people in prison longer will lower recidivism. Yet crime rates of those older prisoners released are much higher than the average citizen at those ages most likely do to the fact that prisons do little to rehabilitate and often just produce more competent criminals.

 

[Flopper]

The criminal justice system should be built around the necessity to keep criminals out of the general population as long as possible. Recidivism identifies career criminals that fall into that category.

One of the biggest mistakes is made by the courts when first-time offenders are let off with no punishment. Also, we have abandoned the valuable concepts of fear, guilt, and shame when dealing with criminal or antisocial behavior.

I tend to agree that first time offenders should suffer some punishment although not prison time. We don't have enough facilities for first time offenders. In fact, there are not enough police, jail space, or prosecutors but the worst shortage is in mental health. Police pickup the mentally ill for petty crimes and drop them off at the nearest ER who hold them for a few days till there is room in a mental health clinic who hold them 3 days to two weeks to stabilize them. Then they hand them a prescription which is thrown in the nearest trash can and they are on the streets again, shoplifting, panhandling, and eventually a lot worst crimes.

 

[Doug1943]

The fact is they don’t think twice or even once before committing these horrible crimes. Capital punishment is not a deterrent. As long as we focus on punishment and not prevention nothing will change.

Okay. What would 'focussing on prevention' actually mean? What would we do, that we are not doing, or not doing enough of, now?

 

[Doug1943]

Capital punishment will have a deterrent effect on someone.

Isolating criminals from society need not be termed punishment. Call it an alternate universe where criminals will feel at home among their own kind.

I think you're on to something. In Czarist Russia, 'political criminals' could be sent into exile. In those days it meant being sent to a remote village in Siberia.

So what about this idea: a very large area somewhere in the Midwest, surrounded by a high electrified fence, with apartment buildings, allotments to grow food. Put criminals there. Not a prison, exactly, but a way to separate them from society.

 

[Flopper]

Capital punishment will have a deterrent effect on someone.

Isolating criminals from society need not be termed punishment. Call it an alternate universe where criminals will feel at home among their own kind.

For violent crimes such as murder, about 86% of the criminals do not weight the results of their actions at all. Typically, the offender doesn't believe he will be caught so he does consider the consequence. In about 1/3 of violent crimes, drugs or alcohol clouds the perpetrator's judgement to the extent that they simply accidental pull the trigger, believe they are being threaten, or just act out of rage.

In white collar crimes such a fraud and embezzlement, etc. the criminal do weight the consequences and often will have plans for the time when they are discovered. This is where punishment is a deterrent and criminals will be drawn to crimes that they feel are less risky and where punishment is less severe.

 

[Flopper]

I think you're on to something. In Czarist Russia, 'political criminals' could be sent into exile. In those days it meant being sent to a remote village in Siberia.

So what about this idea: a very large area somewhere in the Midwest, surrounded by a high electrified fence, with apartment buildings, allotments to grow food. Put criminals there. Not a prison, exactly, but a way to separate them from society.

Similar to the British deportation to Australia? It worked pretty well for Britain for a while because Australia was not considered to be of any value and it was surrounded by ocean. However, most of the Midwest has value and it would require significant amount of security to keep people in. Also there is the problem of protecting those who can not protect themselves. Eventually the strongest would organize and breakout.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Capital Punishment Is Wrong!

Capital Punishment Is Wrong! Capital punishment results in death by execution. It is legal in many states as a punishment for serious crimes, but that does not make it right. Capital punishment should be stopped because it is morally wrong, expensive, and such a slow process.

k12.thoughtfullearning.com

There are many reasons why but it's enough to just say that the convicted will be those who can't afford a defense costing 1/2 million dollars or more. Or are black people.

My own personal opinion is that it's uncivilized and amounts to the state (country) shirking it's social responsibilities.

So you think all people with less wealth than half a million dollars are black people.

I think you need to get out more and quit using the race card to troll a Zone 1 thread.

*****CHUCKLE*****





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